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#4| Blue Jackets @ Coyotes | 9:00 PM EST | The BOOM! Jackets Edition

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Old
10-11-2009, 10:26 PM
  #426
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougRiffle View Post
How much do the Coyotes get paid for naming rights as well as others such as parking? Do they have to make up the difference if there is a loss on other events like CBJ does? I have no clue what the situation in PHX is but I know the financial woes are not caused by low attendance in Columbus. It may be part of the problem but it was a small part.


I've actually studied the Coyotes P&L. There are agreat many similarities in the team's problems, but also some key diffeences.

You can review them your self at:

http://www.bmcgroup.com/restructurin...x?ClientID=204

This is the bankruptcy court's repository.

As an example, the Jackets get nothing for parking. The Coyotes pay $2.60 per ticket parking surcharge, and they can't charge their fans for parking. This means if four fans go to a Jackets game and pay to park, the CBJ gets nothing. If those same four fans go to a Coyotes game, they park for free and the team pays the City of Glendale $10.40.

I did quote the external lease in error, it is $2.7 million. The Coyotes pay their owner $2.7 million for office space in an office park, but the arena has office space available that's already paid in the lease (AMULA).


If you want a general idea of NHL teams revenues, try Forbes.

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2008/31/...s_Revenue.html

According to Forbes, the Jackets earned gross revenues only $3 million greater than Phoenix. Our problem is much more than the lease on Nationwide. The Jackets need:

More sponsors
More corporate support
More fans buying tickets
a much better TV deal
Lease relief- the big thing is relief from the cost of managing Nationwide. The team loses money on this every year. So do the Coyotes.

Our situation is actually pretty similar, except the owner isn't exporting cash and calling it a loss. Additionally, so far our owners actually WANT to own a team. Phoenix's Jerry Moyes never wanted to own a team. He got one by accident. If you like pm me and I can explain all of this in detail.

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10-11-2009, 10:34 PM
  #427
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LetsGOJackets!! View Post
coaching he was getting 7MM a year? Talk about building a franchise on a faulty premise.

That should have left everyone in the organization more than a bit worried from jump.. the Owner is paying an exhorbitant salary to Wayne just to have him in the organ i zation? He did have an ownership interest as well correct? Wonder how much of the debt he has incurred?

I like their young players.. they have a chance to build something solid if they just start over w/o the debt.

It depends how one looks at debt. Secured creditors are HOF Investments $80 million and the NHL $37 million.

The owner acquired the team through convertible debentures, and claims they owe him $100 million. The NHL and the City of Glendale have filed objections to this, and I believe if it is heard by the Court, it will be declared paid in equity not debt. Gretzky is an unsecured creditor, but the big number is a clause in his contract that calls for a $22.5 million payment if the team is sold and moved. The problem is Gretzky's contract is a personal services agreement with the owner, Jerry Moyes. At the eleventh hour, Moyes transferred the contract to the Coyotes without Gretzky's knowledge (or signature) right before filing bankruptcy. Once again, the Court may hold Moyes liable and not the team.

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10-11-2009, 10:37 PM
  #428
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Yotes fan here, I liked what I have seen from Jackets player Derek Dorsett. He's an excellent agitator who will back up his actions unlike most do today. Not to mention he will back down from no one. I first saw him fight Carcillo last year and was immediately impressed. Well, hopefully he stays up the whole year because he's a pretty entertaining young player.

And Good Luck to you guys this year. It doesn't feel too bad losing to you guys because you guys are some of the friendliest fans out there.

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10-11-2009, 10:42 PM
  #429
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Originally Posted by Roadman View Post
This years team is a lot deeper with far more talent.
Fair enough, but I've seen that "Hitchcock treated Brassard and Voracek the same way last year" comment multiple times and the person I was responding to indicated that Voracek "was playing 7-8 minutes a game last season." The latter was (at least for October) simply not accurate -- it may have felt that way -- but Voracek got 10+ minutes in at least seven of the ten October 2008 games.

It could well be that the reason for this difference is that we have a deeper team with more talent. But there is a difference in terms of TOI.

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10-11-2009, 10:47 PM
  #430
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bandit34 View Post
Yotes fan here, I liked what I have seen from Jackets player Derek Dorsett. He's an excellent agitator who will back up his actions unlike most do today. Not to mention he will back down from no one. I first saw him fight Carcillo last year and was immediately impressed. Well, hopefully he stays up the whole year because he's a pretty entertaining young player.

And Good Luck to you guys this year. It doesn't feel too bad losing to you guys because you guys are some of the friendliest fans out there.
Thank you for the kind words! After last year, I thought we may never beat your team ever!! Lol. And Dorsett is hear to stay (: A fixure as a 4th liner/extra at leasttt for this year. And he just signed a 2 year extension.

Best of luck to your season ( and future ) !

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10-11-2009, 10:50 PM
  #431
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Originally Posted by JDCox17 View Post
Fair enough, but I've seen that "Hitchcock treated Brassard and Voracek the same way last year" comment multiple times and the person I was responding to indicated that Voracek "was playing 7-8 minutes a game last season." The latter was (at least for October) simply not accurate -- it may have felt that way -- but Voracek got 10+ minutes in at least seven of the ten October 2008 games.

It could well be that the reason for this difference is that we have a deeper team with more talent. But there is a difference in terms of TOI.
I have also seen the "deeper team with more talent" reason given for giving Filatov less icetime than Voracek or Brassard. However, I just don't think that less than 10 minutes works for a player in his situation. He's 19 and he needs a certain amount of icetime to continue his development.

If you truly believe that giving him the 10 minutes will hurt you short-term, it's a real dilemma...in a sense you aren't doing what is best for the team to give him the icetime. At the same time you have to do it to develop the team's crown jewel asset.

It will be interesting to see how they resolve it. I think they've gotta find those 10 minutes a game for him some way or another and take the short-term hit.

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10-11-2009, 10:59 PM
  #432
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Originally Posted by hcs76 View Post
I have also seen the "deeper team with more talent" reason given for giving Filatov less icetime than Voracek or Brassard. However, I just don't think that less than 10 minutes works for a player in his situation. He's 19 and he needs a certain amount of icetime to continue his development.

If you truly believe that giving him the 10 minutes will hurt you short-term, it's a real dilemma...in a sense you aren't doing what is best for the team to give him the icetime. At the same time you have to do it to develop the team's crown jewel asset.

It will be interesting to see how they resolve it. I think they've gotta find those 10 minutes a game for him some way or another and take the short-term hit.
I dunno. I have a great deal of faith in both Hitchcock and Howson. I imagine Hitch is trying to protect Nik from getting in situations where he would be overwhelmed. He needs to put him in situations where he can succeed and become confident on the ice. As someone else mentioned, Hitchcock handled guys like Jeff Carter, Mike Richards, Umberger and Patrick Sharp as rookies. He often buried Sharp on the depth chart. I've heard Sharp say in interviews that he owes a lot to Hitchcock.

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10-12-2009, 07:49 AM
  #433
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Let's see how much Filatov plays in home games when Hitch can get the match-ups he wants ,versus on the road when he doesn't have that ability.

Of course that means, we (probably) won't see much of Filatov during the month of October. Two home games this week, then back on a long out west road trip.

I'm not sure how well Filatov would do in Calgary or Anaheim. Those games tend to be "weighty".

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10-12-2009, 10:07 AM
  #434
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Originally Posted by leek View Post

According to Forbes, the Jackets earned gross revenues only $3 million greater than Phoenix. Our problem is much more than the lease on Nationwide. The Jackets need:

More sponsors
More corporate support
More fans buying tickets
a much better TV deal
Lease relief- the big thing is relief from the cost of managing Nationwide. The team loses money on this every year. So do the Coyotes.
More sponsors and corporate support will come with an improving economy, just as it waned with a crappy economy.

More fans buying tickets will come from the excitement of a good hockey team, expanding the fan base outside of Columbus, and more people having good employment.

The better TV deal should come from STO vs. FSN.

So it appears that time is the biggest factor. The only things in the CBJ's hands, until it's time to renegotiate the TV deal, is the Nationwide lease, marketing outside of Columbus and putting an exciting product on the ice. Make it so Priest and Company!

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10-12-2009, 10:09 AM
  #435
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Originally Posted by cbjgirl View Post
Let's see how much Filatov plays in home games when Hitch can get the match-ups he wants ,versus on the road when he doesn't have that ability.

Of course that means, we (probably) won't see much of Filatov during the month of October. Two home games this week, then back on a long out west road trip.

I'm not sure how well Filatov would do in Calgary or Anaheim. Those games tend to be "weighty".
I would like to see Filatov get more ice time against the Eastern Conference teams (except for the Flyers). I also think he could be an asset on the second power play line.

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10-12-2009, 11:09 AM
  #436
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Excellent posts Leek & Leesmith

Quote:
Originally Posted by leesmith View Post
So it appears that time is the biggest factor. The only things in the CBJ's hands, until it's time to renegotiate the TV deal, is the Nationwide lease, marketing outside of Columbus and putting an exciting product on the ice. Make it so Priest and Company!
Thanks for both of your insight on the CBJ financial condition. I know it has been reported that the CBJ have lost 10MM per year.. a few questions that you might also be able to answer:

How is their cash flow situation? Have they required cash infusion from the ownership group?

How much pressure exists on the Mgmt team to become cash flow positive, and what kind of time line do they have? Is their interest from the existing ownership group to sell a portion or all of the enterprise? JHM looked at the Jackets as product he was giving back to the city, is anyone continuing this cause?

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10-12-2009, 11:16 AM
  #437
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Originally Posted by leesmith View Post
More sponsors and corporate support will come with an improving economy, just as it waned with a crappy economy.

More fans buying tickets will come from the excitement of a good hockey team, expanding the fan base outside of Columbus, and more people having good employment.

The better TV deal should come from STO vs. FSN.

So it appears that time is the biggest factor. The only things in the CBJ's hands, until it's time to renegotiate the TV deal, is the Nationwide lease, marketing outside of Columbus and putting an exciting product on the ice. Make it so Priest and Company!
How many people get STO? I know I don't. Not sure it is a smart move, even if they pay more, to put your product on a station that less people will see. That isn't a good way to grow your product.

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10-12-2009, 11:25 AM
  #438
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Originally Posted by RDriesenUD View Post
How many people get STO? I know I don't. Not sure it is a smart move, even if they pay more, to put your product on a station that less people will see. That isn't a good way to grow your product.
Hockey would never do something like that.

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10-12-2009, 12:31 PM
  #439
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Originally Posted by RDriesenUD View Post
How many people get STO? I know I don't. Not sure it is a smart move, even if they pay more, to put your product on a station that less people will see. That isn't a good way to grow your product.
The second the Jackets are on STO is the second I re-buy cable.

STO does EVERYTHING in HD, and there wouldn't be any Jackets/Cavs conflict.

Having the Jackets on STO would help get STO on more cable systems.


I used to be in favor of STO getting the Cavs instead, and let it be "Sports Time Cleveland" instead of "Sports Time Ohio" but FSNOH has screwed their Northern Ohio customers so hard it's about time they got some back.

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10-12-2009, 01:29 PM
  #440
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Would love to see the Jackets on STO. Bruce Drennan is a Jackets fan already.

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10-12-2009, 01:38 PM
  #441
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skraut View Post
The second the Jackets are on STO is the second I re-buy cable.

STO does EVERYTHING in HD, and there wouldn't be any Jackets/Cavs conflict.

Having the Jackets on STO would help get STO on more cable systems.


I used to be in favor of STO getting the Cavs instead, and let it be "Sports Time Cleveland" instead of "Sports Time Ohio" but FSNOH has screwed their Northern Ohio customers so hard it's about time they got some back.
I would prefer it on STO as well.

However, sports time Ohio is unavailable in Cincinnati and Dayton. I can't see STO offering enough for the Jackets to completely deprive those markets of CBJ Hockey

Cleveland is certainly a bigger hockey town than Cincinnati. However, the Cincy market would, in theory, be an easier market to gain a foothold in because the Cavs will own Cleveland for as long as Lebron is there.

I do not know if they would show the Jackets games in Toledo or Buffalo, but even if they did, those are Red Wings towns and Sabres towns, respectively.

The Blue Jackets are always going to be in the bottom 5 in terms of TV revenue. The sad truth is, Columbus is just too small of a media market to command any TV deals of note.

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10-12-2009, 02:06 PM
  #442
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I would prefer it on STO as well.

However, sports time Ohio is unavailable in Cincinnati and Dayton. I can't see STO offering enough for the Jackets to completely deprive those markets of CBJ Hockey.
But Time Warner has an interest in STO, and with that in mind, STO arranges deals to get the OHSAA state title games on other cable systems down that way, even if on a temporary channel for the day.

I would think if the CBJ went to STO, there'd be a deal in the works to expand STO's presence even further south and west.

It can be done, but it would require some talking, AND some common sense, and as we know, common sense and the CBJ can be a dangerous combination...

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10-12-2009, 05:01 PM
  #443
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The only problem with STO is it conflicts with the Indians when baseball starts in April.
You'd have to miss important regular season games and playoff games because they'd probably still have the Indians as their top priority.
Other than that issue, STO is better than FSN in every single way.

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10-12-2009, 06:16 PM
  #444
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The only problem with STO is it conflicts with the Indians when baseball starts in April.
You'd have to miss important regular season games and playoff games because they'd probably still have the Indians as their top priority.
Other than that issue, STO is better than FSN in every single way.
STO can set up an alternate channel easily enough. Again, they have Time Warner as a partner, so that's not an issue.

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10-12-2009, 06:51 PM
  #445
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Originally Posted by leek View Post
I've actually studied the Coyotes P&L. There are agreat many similarities in the team's problems, but also some key diffeences.

You can review them your self at:

http://www.bmcgroup.com/restructurin...x?ClientID=204

This is the bankruptcy court's repository.

As an example, the Jackets get nothing for parking. The Coyotes pay $2.60 per ticket parking surcharge, and they can't charge their fans for parking. This means if four fans go to a Jackets game and pay to park, the CBJ gets nothing. If those same four fans go to a Coyotes game, they park for free and the team pays the City of Glendale $10.40.

I did quote the external lease in error, it is $2.7 million. The Coyotes pay their owner $2.7 million for office space in an office park, but the arena has office space available that's already paid in the lease (AMULA).


If you want a general idea of NHL teams revenues, try Forbes.

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2008/31/...s_Revenue.html

According to Forbes, the Jackets earned gross revenues only $3 million greater than Phoenix. Our problem is much more than the lease on Nationwide. The Jackets need:

More sponsors
More corporate support
More fans buying tickets
a much better TV deal
Lease relief- the big thing is relief from the cost of managing Nationwide. The team loses money on this every year. So do the Coyotes.

Our situation is actually pretty similar, except the owner isn't exporting cash and calling it a loss. Additionally, so far our owners actually WANT to own a team. Phoenix's Jerry Moyes never wanted to own a team. He got one by accident. If you like pm me and I can explain all of this in detail.
I realize the issues are much greater than the arena lease. I just simply was stating that fan attendance isn't close to the biggest problem with CBJ losing money as one poster tried to state.

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10-12-2009, 07:15 PM
  #446
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skraut View Post
The second the Jackets are on STO is the second I re-buy cable.

STO does EVERYTHING in HD, and there wouldn't be any Jackets/Cavs conflict.

Having the Jackets on STO would help get STO on more cable systems.


I used to be in favor of STO getting the Cavs instead, and let it be "Sports Time Cleveland" instead of "Sports Time Ohio" but FSNOH has screwed their Northern Ohio customers so hard it's about time they got some back.
Agreed 30000%.

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10-13-2009, 10:09 AM
  #447
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougRiffle View Post
Lease issues not attendance. Nice try though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DougRiffle View Post
Nice try, go back and look at quotes. It wasn't attendance issues it was the building lease. That is why we got to where we were in the off-season.



Sorry no, read the old quotes. Again attendance issues were not the big reason the franchise lost money. The lease issue was the biggest issue.



If attendance was the issue I don't think they would be wasting resources on an economic study to help the team.
The biggest problem in Columbus is NOT the lease. It's media rights and corporate support.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DougRiffle View Post
How much do the Coyotes get paid for naming rights as well as others such as parking? Do they have to make up the difference if there is a loss on other events like CBJ does? I have no clue what the situation in PHX is but I know the financial woes are not caused by low attendance in Columbus. It may be part of the problem but it was a small part.
As I noted above the Coyotes lease is worse the the Blue Jackets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DougRiffle View Post
I realize the issues are much greater than the arena lease. I just simply was stating that fan attendance isn't close to the biggest problem with CBJ losing money as one poster tried to state.
You're truly backtracking because you got busted. If you shoot from the hip, be prepare someone else actually has researched the subject and will challenge your claims.

What this is really about is people piling on Coyotes fans. Here's a little known secret. If the Coyotes sold out EVERY game and made the playoffs, they would have lost about $20 million. Attendance isn't their problem.

If the Blue Jackets sold out every game and made the playoffs, guess what, they would have lost money. And no, not because of the lease.

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10-13-2009, 10:17 AM
  #448
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LetsGOJackets!! View Post
Thanks for both of your insight on the CBJ financial condition. I know it has been reported that the CBJ have lost 10MM per year.. a few questions that you might also be able to answer:

How is their cash flow situation? Have they required cash infusion from the ownership group?

How much pressure exists on the Mgmt team to become cash flow positive, and what kind of time line do they have? Is their interest from the existing ownership group to sell a portion or all of the enterprise? JHM looked at the Jackets as product he was giving back to the city, is anyone continuing this cause?

You ask great questions. I don't know the ownership group's goals today. You are absolutely right about Mr. McConnell and his original goal of giving something to the city. One little discussed piece of information is the loss during the lockout. As I understand it, the Blue Jackets lost almost $18 million that year because Mr. McConnell refused to allow the team to lay-off any employees. When people talk about the $80 million loss over the last seven years, they forget to mention how $18 million was lost.


I don't know whether there have been any cash calls or not, but I wouldn't be surprised at all. I could probably find out. One interesting point is as the team has committed to putting a more competitive team on the ice by increasing the player payroll budget, it makes it much more difficult to break even. If the CBJ used Nashville's budget break even would be roughly $78 million. With the budget the Jackets are using break-even goes to about $85 million. This will require a big media package and major corporate sponsorship, as well as corporate sell outs of the luxury suites.

To give you an idea here are Nashville's numbers:

Quote:
2008-009 (Projected)

Team Revenues $62.9
Arena Revenues $10.1

Total Revenues $73.0

Expenses $68.1

EBITDA $4.9

Interest $3.7
Payment to Forecheck $2.0

Total Interest $5.7

Depreciation and Amortization $13.0

Net Profit ($13.8)

Net Cash Flow ($1.3)

2009-10 (Projected)

Team Revenues $67.5
Arena Revenues $11.4

Total Revenues $78.9

Expenses $71.8

EBITDA $7.1

Interest $3.7
Payment to Forecheck $2.0

Total Interest $5.7

Depreciation and Amortization $13.0

Net Profit ($7.3)

Net Cash Flow $0.9

COMMENTS ON NASHVILLE FINANCES

There were numbers beyond those years, but it started to get very speculative, with Boots Del Biaggio feeling he would get repaid in full by the team assuming $70 mil in additional debt (even though the league prohibits more than 50% of the franchise value to be carried by the NHL in debt, and that would put them over it) and $15 mil in expansion fees in 2010-11.

The documents seem to indicate that the expenses line is all-in (both team and arena).

In essence, EBITDA-wise (the measure that sports teams generally use) is pretty good. Cash flow is essentially break-even.

Additionally, they post a for-tax-purposes loss every year, which may be used to shelter other income from taxation down the road. That is worth millions if they were to ever sell the team.

Forbes latest estimates for Blue Jackets revenues is $71 million. If John P. McConnell and the rest of the ownership group decides they need to make a profit based on EBITDA, we will be the Coyotes minus the overcharges and cash takeouts by ownership.


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