HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > National Hockey League Talk > Polls - (hockey-related only)
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2

AO power forward or not?

View Poll Results: AO power forward or not?
AO is a power forward 120 63.49%
AO is not a power forward 69 36.51%
Voters: 189. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
10-13-2009, 12:48 PM
  #76
Sojourn
Global Moderator
Where's the kaboom?
 
Sojourn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Country: United States
Posts: 24,515
vCash: 50
I don't consider fighting a requirement to be a power forward, but I don't think Ovechkin is a power forward. He's a forward who likes to hit and he will play a physical game, but that just makes him a physical foward.

I'd call Crosby a power forward before I'd call Ovechkin one, and I definitely don't believe Crosby is one.

Sojourn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-13-2009, 03:02 PM
  #77
Pepper
Registered User
 
Pepper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,405
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by backs4mvp View Post
Mean skilled players fought, they don't anymore, they're too valuable to risk unnecessary injury and to sit in the box for 5 minutes. The players, and sport has evolved. Definitions change over the years.
Iginla fights, Getzlaf fights, Morrow fights, Doan fights, Lecavalier fights, Thornton fights etc.

Game has evolved but fighting is STILL part of the game. Players might not fight as much as in the 90's but they still do fight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by backs4mvp View Post
Why would Iginla fight Perros, to risk injury and do Anaheim a favour by taking himself off the ice, and an even bigger favour by getting Parros off the ice?

Why would Ovechkin fight Lucic, to risk injury and do Boston a huge favour by taking himself off the ice for 5min?
What? Why should Iginla fight Parros? Why did Iginla fight with Moreau few nights ago? Why did Thornton and Getzlaf fight last play-offs?

You're not making any sense.

Pepper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-13-2009, 03:17 PM
  #78
Fire Julien
Registered User
 
Fire Julien's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Bergen
Country: Norway
Posts: 17,429
vCash: 1340
Anyone can run people over with a visor on, that doesn't mean that you're a power forward .

Fire Julien is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-13-2009, 03:59 PM
  #79
backs4mvp
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Burlington, On
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,909
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
Iginla fights, Getzlaf fights, Morrow fights, Doan fights, Lecavalier fights, Thornton fights etc.
0-3 fights a year isn't fighting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
Game has evolved but fighting is STILL part of the game. Players might not fight as much as in the 90's but they still do fight.
They fight as much, but the coaches and GMs are smarter now, they rather not have their star players sitting in the box for 5 and risking injury, they have enforcers, support, and role players to do that.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
What? Why should Iginla fight Parros? Why did Iginla fight with Moreau few nights ago? Why did Thornton and Getzlaf fight last play-offs?

You're not making any sense.
Poor choice by Iginla, what if he breaks a finger or wrist fighting a guy like Moreau. Thornton & Getzlaf, fair trade-off, but these types of fights rarely happen.


Power forward describes a players play between whistles, not what he does after.

backs4mvp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-13-2009, 05:29 PM
  #80
Hippasus
1,9,45,165,495,1287,
 
Hippasus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Calgary
Posts: 2,321
vCash: 500
So the term power forward was formed in the early 90s after about 10 years of clutching and grabbing, and after guys like Neely entered the league. There are players like Tocchet, Kevin Stevens (who wasn't a fighter), etc. around at the time that were supposed to be distinguished from the more or less pure skill guys like Bure and Selanne. At the time there were two types of forwards. Now there's still skill guys like Hemsky and Datsyuk, but there's also your Getzlafs and Morrows. Well Ovechkin falls into both categories by today's standards of the power-skill dichotomy. So the issue is whether his skill exempts him from consideration from the power forward label--because as has been said, he has attributes in common with the latter. Does one have to play a power game more than half the time? All the time? I think it's enough if it's a part of the players regular repertoire (say, at least every game). Just because he's similar to a pure skill player in some ways, doesn't mean that he cannot be considered a power forward in my opinion.

Hippasus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-13-2009, 05:54 PM
  #81
fizban
Registered User
 
fizban's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Country: Aruba
Posts: 1,541
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by climbingbill View Post
So the term power forward was formed in the early 90s after about 10 years of clutching and grabbing, and after guys like Neely entered the league. There are players like Tocchet, Kevin Stevens (who wasn't a fighter), etc. around at the time that were supposed to be distinguished from the more or less pure skill guys like Bure and Selanne. At the time there were two types of forwards. Now there's still skill guys like Hemsky and Datsyuk, but there's also your Getzlafs and Morrows. Well Ovechkin falls into both categories by today's standards of the power-skill dichotomy. So the issue is whether his skill exempts him from consideration from the power forward label--because as has been said, he has attributes in common with the latter. Does one have to play a power game more than half the time? All the time? I think it's enough if it's a part of the players regular repertoire (say, at least every game). Just because he's similar to a pure skill player in some ways, doesn't mean that he cannot be considered a power forward in my opinion.
That's fine. Then by your definition, Crosby and Mike Richards must also be power forwards. It's perfectly acceptable to define a power forward in those terms, but I don't think most would agree. I think that to be considered a power forward, more than 50% of a player's success must be directly attributable to doing things on the ice that are considered to be power forward characteristics. By that definition, Ovechkin does not fit the bill.

fizban is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-13-2009, 06:13 PM
  #82
The Dayvan Cowboy
Registered Genius
 
The Dayvan Cowboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,697
vCash: 500
No, Ovechkin is not a power forward because he does not lead the league in fighting majors. It is pretty simple really.

The Dayvan Cowboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-13-2009, 06:28 PM
  #83
fizban
Registered User
 
fizban's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Country: Aruba
Posts: 1,541
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Discipline View Post
No, Ovechkin is not a power forward because he does not lead the league in fighting majors. It is pretty simple really.
LOLZERS HA HA YOU GOT US! THAT'S WHAT WE'RE SAYING.











fizban is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-13-2009, 07:21 PM
  #84
Habsterix*
@Habsterix
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,475
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
So which players defined the term powerforward then?

So far you have ZERO substance to back up your claims. The term of powerforward was defined by players who all fought yet in your opinion a player whose biggest strength is not the power game nor by your own admission play the power game constantly, is a true power forward.

Seems like you're out of your league here.
See, a power forward doesn't need to fight in today's NHL. He uses his strength and size to hit, fight for pucks, drive to the net shielding the puck with his big body, parks himself in front of the net. The last time I checked, Ovechkin does all that (and more, that I'll agree).


It seems to me like it's your definition that puts you out of your league here, as over 63% of hockey fans on this board disagree with you.

Habsterix* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-13-2009, 08:48 PM
  #85
BostonAJ
Registered User
 
BostonAJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Southie
Country: United States
Posts: 2,559
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asterix View Post
See, a power forward doesn't need to fight in today's NHL. He uses his strength and size to hit, fight for pucks, drive to the net shielding the puck with his big body, parks himself in front of the net.
So by your definition, Mario Lemieux was also a power forward. Because he did your prerequisites better than anybody.

BostonAJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-13-2009, 09:43 PM
  #86
Le CH
Registered User
 
Le CH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,241
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BostonAJ View Post
So by your definition, Mario Lemieux was also a power forward. Because he did your prerequisites better than anybody.
Looking at your avatar, we know how highly you value fighting. I am still confused how most people who acknowledge Messier as a power forward AND say fighting is essential to the role conveniently ignore the fact he averaged less than two fights a year in his last 16 seasons.

Le CH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-13-2009, 10:32 PM
  #87
BostonAJ
Registered User
 
BostonAJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Southie
Country: United States
Posts: 2,559
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habstastic View Post
Looking at your avatar, we know how highly you value fighting. I am still confused how most people who acknowledge Messier as a power forward AND say fighting is essential to the role conveniently ignore the fact he averaged less than two fights a year in his last 16 seasons.
Messier does lose power forward points with me for not being more of a fighter. While I do expect a good power forward to be willing (or at least able) to drop the gloves, it is not the only requirement. A power forward's style of play is that of a bully on the ice that also has soft hands. Messier was a bully. Lindros was a bully. Lucic is a bully. Laraque's a bully but he has hands of concrete. Same with Donald Brashear.

Ovie is my favorite player to watch right now. I think he's the most talented player I've seen since Lemieux. But he's not a bully, and so he's not a power forward. Ovie plays as intense a game as anyone I've seen, but it's not a mean game.

BostonAJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-14-2009, 01:43 AM
  #88
Pepper
Registered User
 
Pepper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,405
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asterix View Post
See, a power forward doesn't need to fight in today's NHL.
So who changed the definition? There's still fighting in the game and there are still star players who fight. So you admit that fighting used to be part of the powerforward definition but for some reason it's not anymore even though there are players who still fit the traditional definition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asterix View Post
He uses his strength and size to hit, fight for pucks, drive to the net shielding the puck with his big body, parks himself in front of the net. The last time I checked, Ovechkin does all that (and more, that I'll agree).
So do atleast 50 other forwards who are not considered powerforwards by just about anybody.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asterix View Post
It seems to me like it's your definition that puts you out of your league here, as over 63% of hockey fans on this board disagree with you.
Sorry, the moment you realize that HF polls is the only support for your argument, you have lost the game.

Pepper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-14-2009, 01:48 AM
  #89
Pepper
Registered User
 
Pepper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,405
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habstastic View Post
Looking at your avatar, we know how highly you value fighting. I am still confused how most people who acknowledge Messier as a power forward AND say fighting is essential to the role conveniently ignore the fact he averaged less than two fights a year in his last 16 seasons.
Messier had 10 and 7 fight seasons during his NHL career and fought every season.

This is not a numbers game, there's really no number of fights that is required to be a powerforward. Messier had fighting in his game and had a mean streak. Physical play was a crucial part of his game.

Pepper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-14-2009, 04:48 AM
  #90
Ohashi_Jouzu
Registered User
 
Ohashi_Jouzu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Halifax
Country: Japan
Posts: 21,622
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asterix View Post
See, a power forward doesn't need to fight in today's NHL. He uses his strength and size to hit, fight for pucks, drive to the net shielding the puck with his big body, parks himself in front of the net. The last time I checked, Ovechkin does all that (and more, that I'll agree).


It seems to me like it's your definition that puts you out of your league here, as over 63% of hockey fans on this board disagree with you.
Yeah, believe me, none of us in the remaining 37% put much stock in public opinion polls. Especially in a world where "popular" vote puts people like George Bush in charge of the most powerful armed forces in the world...

But I digress. A power forward should make even big, tough defensemen hear "footsteps" when they go for pucks in the corners, and occasionally create a few turnovers because of it. I don't think there are many defensemen in today's, or yesteryear's, NHL that hear those footsteps and think "oh geez, I hope that's not Ovechkin coming at me!" and brace themselves for dear life.

Real power forwards have that effect. I presume Ovechkin does not, so I presume not a lot of people in and around the game/league honestly consider him one; unless they are making off-the-cuff comments similar to calling someone a brain surgeon or a rocket scientist just because on an occasion or two that person demonstrated above average cleverness.

Ohashi_Jouzu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-14-2009, 05:20 AM
  #91
Pepper
Registered User
 
Pepper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,405
vCash: 500
When AO hits, his only objective is to separate the puck from the opponent. If there's a better way to get the puck, he takes it instead of hitting the opponent.

Classic powerforwards hit people not only because of that but also because they simply wanted to crush the opponent for the fun of it. They knew that if they kept crushing the opponents even when they didn't have to, the opponents started looking over their shoulders and fumbling the puck away as fast as possible so they could brace themselves for the incoming hit.

AO doesn't do that, he doesn't have the aura of physical intimidation that for example Lindros, Tocchet and Neely had. And that's what separates physical forwards from true powerforwards.

Pepper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-14-2009, 06:49 AM
  #92
Guru Meditation
Service Unavailable
 
Guru Meditation's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 7,192
vCash: 500
I don't think the NHL truly has power forwards anymore. Seems like the new NHL has taken away a lot of the "power moves" like holding off a defenseman with a free hand, and obviously you have the instigator rule and things like that to decrease fighting. Plus, they call goaltender interference at the drop of a hat now, so playing down low is not the same as it used to be.

Lucic is in the ballpark, and I think he would be a power forward if the rules allowed him to be. But as it is now, he's just a physical player who can score some goals.

Guru Meditation is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-14-2009, 10:32 PM
  #93
Habsterix*
@Habsterix
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,475
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
Sorry, the moment you realize that HF polls is the only support for your argument, you have lost the game.
That's one way to look at it. The other way would be that it's a desperate answer by someone who obviously has lost his poll, seeing the majority of hockey fans not thinking the way he does, as he sees his opinion as the truth and the rest as lies... which one would it be?

Habsterix* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-14-2009, 11:14 PM
  #94
Ohashi_Jouzu
Registered User
 
Ohashi_Jouzu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Halifax
Country: Japan
Posts: 21,622
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asterix View Post
That's one way to look at it. The other way would be that it's a desperate answer by someone who obviously has lost his poll, seeing the majority of hockey fans not thinking the way he does, as he sees his opinion as the truth and the rest as lies... which one would it be?
Well, consider it a sad commentary on modern civilisation as a whole, but I wouldn't rely on the opinion of 63% of all people out there to make the important decisions in life for my family, nor my business, so... weed out the people who voted in this poll who weren't even old enough to drive or even vote when real (or more strict definition) power forwards like Neely, Lindros, etc were in their prime (i.e. the under-experienced), and I might look more favourably on the 63%.

Unless the younger generation is trying to convince us that the definition must change with the times (with which I, personally, don't agree), which is at least semi-valid.

Ohashi_Jouzu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-14-2009, 11:41 PM
  #95
Pepper
Registered User
 
Pepper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,405
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asterix View Post
That's one way to look at it. The other way would be that it's a desperate answer by someone who obviously has lost his poll, seeing the majority of hockey fans not thinking the way he does, as he sees his opinion as the truth and the rest as lies... which one would it be?
When will you start anwswering my questions?

Or are you just stalling the whole argument by quoting the poll results over and over again?

Pepper is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:38 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.