"....Sirois instead attempts to demonstrate with stats and numbers that the hockey league's managers don't hold French-Canadian players in as high esteem as their anglophone peers....."
The league's managers also hold German, Italian, French and African hockey players in lower esteem than anglophone ones. Why didn't he write a book on that? I think there are less African hockey players than Quebecois players in the NHL. That is an obvious case of discrimination.
I'm really getting tried of this victim mentality.
Let's do some comparisons with Swedish & Finnish players.
Sweden has a pop of 9 mil. There 37 Swedes in the NHl
Finland has a pop of 5 mil. There are 26 Fins in the NHL.
Quebec has a pop of 8 mil. There are about 60 Quebecois in the NHL.
I think the book has a point. There's is discrimination in the NHL. The Anglo GM's are bending over backwards to sign Francophone players.
This and the post about the Memorial Cup performance is the point I was going to make. Enough with the whining already, if you want more players in the NHL (and you've got more than a fair number of COUNTRY'S already) develop them better.
I don't think anybody is seriously arguing that top francophone players are discriminated against, but that statistically there seems to be a bias against lesser players.
Somebody brough a very interesting point from the book in a previous thread yesterday:
There is mounting evidence that the Q is underscouted. I'm wondering if that is because most teams don't have francophone amateur scouts and unilingual anglophone scouts don't feel confortable going to places like Rimouski, Baie-Comeau, Chicoutimi, etc.
Awhile back I did a count of the scouts for each team. There were two teams I couldn't get a breakdown so we were looking at 28 teams. From those 28 teams I counted 28 Francophone scouts but there were some teams that had multiple Francophones. So that meant that some teams didn't have any Francophone scouts. Do you know how many.5 teams teams. Only 5 effing teams. Try some other excuse.
Let's do some comparisons with Swedish & Finnish players.
Sweden has a pop of 9 mil. There 37 Swedes in the NHl
Finland has a pop of 5 mil. There are 26 Fins in the NHL.
Quebec has a pop of 8 mil. There are about 60 Quebecois in the NHL.
Both Sweden and Finland have their own domestic professional hockey leagues with hundreds of players being paid to play. Quebec players who are passed over in the draft don't have this, and you wont see many 25 to 30 year olds breaking in the league as late bloomers because of this. Here the NHL sucks up all the attention and when players go undrafted most of the time their chance at a career is gone.
I think that as more of the world plays hockey, there are bound to be less Quebecers in the league. In the 80s there were no Europeans yet, now we have countries like Slovenia, Austria, Switzerland and Denmark producing player(s). There is less room for Quebecers, as there are proportionally less Canadians in general and North Americans as a whole.
Saying that Matthew Lombardi wouldn't have made it if he had a French name is insulting and xenophobic. If anything, he gets no love from RDS when he plays the Canadiens, one game a few years ago he almost had a hat trick in Montreal, he had tons of family in the stands and RDS said absolutely nothing about it.
Sirois is just trying to make a Guy Bertrand-esque name for himself. It's the first time I've ever heard of him, he's using baseless accusations like the Shane Doan comments that were actually form Ladislav Nagy if they happened at all...but who needs facts?
Oh ya...a self-respecting author...which Sirois is not.
"...10% of all NHL players were completely passed over in the draft but managed to break into the league; the rate among players from Quebec, 19%, is almost twice as high..."
Those stats don't prove that there is discrimination.
Discrimination could be one explanation for those stats.
Another could be that talented Quebecois players are not getting the correct coaching in juniors and only rise to the top when they are exposed to better coaches.
I can think of a half dozen other reasons for those stats. They don't necessarily mean that there's discrimination.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Not The One
Both Sweden and Finland have their own domestic professional hockey leagues with hundreds of players being paid to play. Quebec players who are passed over in the draft don't have this, and you wont see many 25 to 30 year olds breaking in the league as late bloomers because of this. Here the NHL sucks up all the attention and when players go undrafted most of the time their chance at a career is gone.
The rest of your post I wont even comment.
The AHL says hello.
As for those Swedes and Finns in those domestic leagues, they couldn't make it in the NHL. So what's your point?
The NHL is no longer a domestic league. It is an international league where the best players from the world come to play.
Last edited by Habs10Habs: 10-20-2009 at 09:08 AM.
Reason: Merge
Both Sweden and Finland have their own domestic professional hockey leagues with hundreds of players being paid to play. Quebec players who are passed over in the draft don't have this, and you wont see many 25 to 30 year olds breaking in the league as late bloomers because of this. Here the NHL sucks up all the attention and when players go undrafted most of the time their chance at a career is gone.
The rest of your post I wont even comment.
Any league in the world will welcome players undrafted by the NHL, including the NHL if they are good enough. A lot of players not good enough for the NHL play in European leagues or the AHL.
How is the AHL comparable at all to the Swedish and Finnish leagues?
Sweden has a pop of 9 mil. 12 SEL teams
Finland has a pop of 5 mil. 14 SM-liiga teams
Quebec has a pop of 8 mil. 0 AHL teams
The AHL is also most a development league mostly for drafted players. My point stands.
Note that I'm not blaming anybody for the fact we don't have our own pro league and it is impossible to imagine one, but I'm responding to your point about the number of NHL players respective to the population of each country. Euro players may be under represented in the NHL due to bias/cultural issues, but they have their own leagues to fall back on.
Sweden and Finland also have their own WJHC teams to provide visibility and challenge to their best players.
I love how some of you try to bring exemples that "show" francophones aren't discriminated.
Wake up, we don't care about some exemples. Statistics tell that there is a difference between francophones and anglophones. Basic science 101.
Anyway, it's pretty laughable to talk about the book without even have red it.
(oh btw, can both "frenchies" and "anglos" on this board stop insulting one and other?)
You do realise that you can make statistics say whatever you want. All you have to do is pick the stats that prove your point and ignore the ones that counter it. Stats is more of an art than a science.
To elaborate a little on an earlier post. In the US more natuaral born Americans are unemployed today than ever before in history, do you know why? Immigration, legal and illegal is very high there. Those immigrants take jobs.
With the influx of better players from around the world it stands to reason that there will be more players of different ethnicity playing in the NHL. I may be wrong but are french Canadian players the second or 3rd highest percentage of players overall?
Further, if I am in Quebec and have a vested interest in Quebec born players making it to the NHL I better address whatever the problem in the Q is because I think the USHL and the US Development program could surpass the quality of the Q very soon if it has not already.
How is the AHL comparable at all to the Swedish and Finnish leagues?
Sweden has a pop of 9 mil. 12 SEL teams
Finland has a pop of 5 mil. 14 SM-liiga teams
Quebec has a pop of 8 mil. 0 AHL teams
The AHL is also most a development league mostly for drafted players. My point stands.
Note that I'm not blaming anybody for the fact we don't have our own pro league and it is impossible to imagine one, but I'm responding to your point about the number of NHL players respective to the population of each country. Euro players may be under represented in the NHL due to bias/cultural issues, but they have their own leagues to fall back on.
Sweden and Finland also have their own WJHC teams to provide visibility and challenge to their best players.
Sweden is its own country, Finland is its own country.
Quebec is part of Canada. Canada has pro leagues.
BC, Ontario, Alberta don't have an exclusive pro league either so..
How is the AHL comparable at all to the Swedish and Finnish leagues?
Sweden has a pop of 9 mil. 12 SEL teams
Finland has a pop of 5 mil. 14 SM-liiga teams
Quebec has a pop of 8 mil. 0 AHL teams
The AHL is also most a development league mostly for drafted players. My point stands.
Note that I'm not blaming anybody for the fact we don't have our own pro league and it is impossible to imagine one, but I'm responding to your point about the number of NHL players respective to the population of each country. Euro players may be under represented in the NHL due to bias/cultural issues, but they have their own leagues to fall back on.
Sweden and Finland also have their own WJHC teams to provide visibility and challenge to their best players.
To Not So Fast
You may not like it but quebec is part of canada.As for no ahl teams there is only 4 in the country major jr is in canada all over the country quebec alone has what about 10 teams plus there own semi -pro league
Last edited by wjhl2009fan: 10-20-2009 at 09:07 AM.
To elaborate a little on an earlier post. In the US more natuaral born Americans are unemployed today than ever before in history, do you know why? Immigration, legal and illegal is very high there. Those immigrants take jobs.
With the influx of better players from around the world it stands to reason that there will be more players of different ethnicity playing in the NHL. I may be wrong but are french Canadian players the second or 3rd highest percentage of players overall?
Further, if I am in Quebec and have a vested interest in Quebec born players making it to the NHL I better address whatever the problem in the Q is because I think the USHL and the US Development program could surpass the quality of the Q very soon if it has not already.
I'm sorry but that is so not true. You could claim the opposite just as much saying they had one of the biggest economies because of immigrants. Immigrants do not take jobs, I'm sure there more books, studies ect.. that have been made too prove that.
But back to hockey if the french players are less scouted then the other, I would change my position and say we should get more of them (would the talent pool not be bigger??)
Sweden is its own country, Finland is its own country.
Quebec is part of Canada. Canada has pro leagues.
BC, Ontario, Alberta don't have an exclusive pro league either so..
That is the whole POINT! If francophone players are discriminated against within that system, as is implied by the book's statistics, they do not have anything else to fall back on.
Hence the need to identify and lessen this discrimination, and this includes making the Q better or changing the format of the league altogether.
In the Russian challenges, the league that struggles the most is the Q.
From 1983- present day, the Q has won the memorial cup 4 times. Only 4 times, over a 26 year period. The WHL won it 15 times, while the OHL won it 7 times. The Q has 9 runner ups, while the OHL has 13 and the dub 4. Is this showing you that teams in the Q are weak ? Cause it's blatantly obvious to me.
That is the whole POINT! If francophone players are discriminated against within that system, as is implied by the book's statistics, they do not have anything else to fall back on.
Hence the need to identify and lessen this discrimination, and this includes making the Q better or changing the format of the league altogether.
With in reason how would you make the q better.Aselo as for francophones have nothing else to fall back on does that aslo not apply to the rest of the players in the country.
How is the AHL comparable at all to the Swedish and Finnish leagues?
Sweden has a pop of 9 mil. 12 SEL teams
Finland has a pop of 5 mil. 14 SM-liiga teams
Quebec has a pop of 8 mil. 0 AHL teams
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What the ef are you arguing about now? Quebecois players or Quebecois teams in the A. Your point is completely nonsensical.
Look at those AHL teams and they have Quebecois players on them. Those Quebecois players in the AHL are comparable to the Swedish & Finnish players in their domestic leagues. Most of those players are not or will never be good enough for the NHL. The Swedes & Finns have come to terms with that. Maybe you should too.
Sweden with 9 million pop has 20+ players
Finland with 5 million pop has 20+ players
Quebec's team would NOT be competitive at first with those, but they would certainly be within the group of 16. They would not be on the podium, but the point is to develop players, no to win medals.
What the ef are you arguing about now? Quebecois players or Quebecois teams in the A. Your point is completely nonsensical.
Look at those AHL teams and they have Quebecois players on them. Those Quebecois players in the AHL are comparable to the Swedish & Finnish players in their domestic leagues. Most of those players are not or will never be good enough for the NHL. The Swedes & Finns have come to terms with that. Maybe you should too.
Don't try and bring logic to this, it would be counter-productive.
Sweden with 9 million pop has 20+ players
Finland with 5 million pop has 20+ players
Quebec's team would NOT be competitive at first with those, but they would certainly be within the group of 16. They would not be on the podium, but the point is to develop players, no to win medals.
Again sweden and finland are there own countrys.Quebec is part of canada and is part of hockey canada.
It must be true, players like Brisebois never had a chance at making a team outside of Mtl
I wonder if he include the Boullions, and John Leclaire's of the world in his French name stats. Is Brad Richards an english or french name.
Sirois has an axe to grind and is stirring up crap. He was a marginal hockey player so needs to somehow explain how he was hard done by.
I haven't read the book and don't plan to. He may or may not have the numbers to back him up. I'd like to see the stats for players from PEI and NFLD being drafted. I'll bet they're astronomical. Tremblay included the US guys in his interview saying they had a better chance only because they're english, laughable.
The discrepancy in number can be attributed to several factor, but french bias is not likely a major contributing factor.
There are 5 major sources for prospects entering the draft. QMJHL, OHL, WHL, Europe and NCAA/US Junior Hockey.
3 of the 5 are in predominantly English that should take take of some of the discrepancy.
Up until 15 years ago QMJHL, OHL, WHL had no real competition with regards to players being drafted. Occasionally someone from europe or the US would get drafted but it was pretty rare.
The QMJHL, OHL, and WHL have different reputations with regard to the type of player they typically produce. The WHL has been thought to be the "tougher" League while the Q seems to be more focussed on producing offensive minded player and ironically enough this league has produce most of the Star goalies in the league. With more europeans being drafted, this has put them in direct competition with the Q players. Most russians aren't drafted for their grit or defensive ability. The same can be said of the Quebec players. Yes there are always exceptions but when I see that we draft someone from the Q, I expect him to be an offence first type player. Same from Europe. Maybe the Q should try and do something about that mentality.
He may be correct with his numbers but I doubt it has anything to do with a bias, whether it be historical or current. This type of journalism is laughable at best and slanderous at worst. Imagine if a writer in Toronto were to claim that english players were being discriminated against when it came to being able to become the Captain or Coach of the Habs....
Bottom line, if you've got talent and a work ethic the scout in the NHL won't care if your name is Mohamed Al Jazeer.
Guys like Sirois and Tremblay really do make it tough to take Quebec seriously.
Sweden with 9 million pop has 20+ players
Finland with 5 million pop has 20+ players
Quebec's team would NOT be competitive at first with those, but they would certainly be within the group of 16. They would not be on the podium, but the point is to develop players, no to win medals.
The whole point of the tournament is to win a medal, preferably Gold but the other two are ok too. Isn't the Q there to develop players?
