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New Book Asks If There Is A Bias In Nhl Against French Players

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Old
10-20-2009, 09:32 AM
  #51
Not The One
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Originally Posted by NerdAtTheCoolTable View Post
Developing players is the point for Junior club teams, winning medals is the goal of Junior national teams.
Tell that to the "draft expert" around here! World Junior Championship performance may arguably be the most important factor for determining pre-draft ranking of junior players.

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10-20-2009, 09:47 AM
  #52
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I have in the past and not just in terms of hockey.
Asking for 175 million from the Feds for a new arena in la ville reine is a recent example that comes to mind.

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10-20-2009, 09:50 AM
  #53
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Asking for 175 million from the Feds for a new arena in la ville reine is a recent example that comes to mind.
and what does it have to do with this thread ? nothing.

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10-20-2009, 09:52 AM
  #54
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So you think that a player's WHJC (both U18 and U20) does not affect his draft ranking and his subsequent exposure and development?

Carey Price anyone?


Last edited by Watsatheo: 10-20-2009 at 10:06 AM. Reason: quoted deleted post
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Old
10-20-2009, 10:03 AM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyF3ind View Post
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=295379



Without reading the book I'd tend to agree that in an English dominated league French players get discriminated against, although I'd also argue that every non-white or non-english speaker likely gets the the same or very similar discrimination.
Your Thoughts?
I think it is time to let this "bias" go already, this isn't 1950 and the players are either English Canadian/American or French Canadian!

This is 2009-2010, if this was such a issue I think we would be hearing it from the Russians, Finns, Swedes, Czechs, Slovaks and the other minority players out there.

It is time to let it go, the NHL is open to more people and cultures and the Big French Hockey star isn't there like they use to be, heck the big stars aren't even English Canadians anymore!!!

This book and the French media is the reason these topics are around, not because it is an issue on the ice for players...it is an off ice issue for the critics and media.

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10-20-2009, 10:05 AM
  #56
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Keep the thread on hockey. If this strays to more political discussion it will be closed and there may be infractions handed out afterward. Only warning...

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10-20-2009, 10:07 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Thorn View Post
You do realise that you can make statistics say whatever you want. All you have to do is pick the stats that prove your point and ignore the ones that counter it. Stats is more of an art than a science.
Now that's funny!

I still remember when a tv host try to set aside statistical evidence to a university teacher telling him "we can say whatever we want with stats" and the teacher lecturing him about basic science 101, telling him it's completely false!

Stats are science, it's not an art at all, if you think so, it might be time that you get some more education.

The only way stats can "lie" is by using a non-proper methodology and we can't evaluate his study yet.

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Old
10-20-2009, 10:09 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by tiredman View Post
and what does it have to do with this thread ? nothing.
It has a lot to do with this thread. French Canadians want their own team he is stating and that there is a bias from English Canada toward the French and French players according to this book and by many political people in Quebec.

If a sense of independance is wanted and a need for a team of their own the poster is saying more a less why are they asking for Federal money which is all Canadian tax payers money, not just Quebec tax payer money?

There is media/critic crying because there aren't enough Quebecors being picked for the National teams, or that there aren't as many making the NHL because of English bias...but then public funding should be allowed from the same bias people that they are bashing?

I get his point.

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10-20-2009, 10:10 AM
  #59
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How many Quebec-raised defensemen are there in the NHL right now? How about defensive or two-way forwards?

Like I've been saying, there's a reason that the vast majority of Quebecers in the NHL are scorers, goalies or goons. Quebec's minor hockey system needs to start concentrating more on defensive play. You can't get away with being a one-dimensional offensive player anymore, unless you're scoring a point per game.

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10-20-2009, 10:10 AM
  #60
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One interesting point that made me think is the proportion of anglos vs francos that are drafted and play in the NHL from the QMHL. That made me wonder... and then I remmebered my own playing days.

When I was playing competitive hockey, I was the only Anglo on my team. For a shy kid, it was a problem... for me and for the team. The truth is, just as any out numbered person needs to stand out in a crowd of other types of people, I had to stand out to make it. I had to have the force of character to push through the fact that I was more or less a loner. it made me a very good competitor.

It is probably the same for any other anglo in competive hockey in Quebec. All your team mates are French, as are your coaches. You have to try harder. Simply because you have to make up for the fact that sometimes, you just do not get what the others want from you and you have to compensate with effort.

It makes you a better player. Maybe this is why these guys are making it into the NHL at twice the rate of the francos... they need to try harder to make it, and they are better for it. Character is hard to come by.

It is just a hypothesis. But it should sound familiar to us. Francos with that type of character had to give more of themselves then any other to succeed. And when they do, they are recognized.

-------------
On a separate note, my nephew and I were talking about this and he said that he believed that the fact that Quebec does not have body checking until bantam cripples the development of players. In the Q, they do not have the years of physical play in their back pocket. They are not developped in the same way.

----------------

As for bias, if there is a bias against Francos, why is there not the same bias against goaltenders? To say that it is "different" for goalies, is simply playing both sides of the fence, and picking when your arguement supports your feelings. You cannot have it both ways.

Sometimes the simple answer is the right answer. There is/was a good goaltending tradition in Quebec born out of serious training. Maybe the same cannot be said for skaters, especially Defensemen.

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Old
10-20-2009, 10:16 AM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Not The One View Post
Tell that to the "draft expert" around here! World Junior Championship performance may arguably be the most important factor for determining pre-draft ranking of junior players.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Not The One View Post
So you think that a player's WHJC (both U18 and U20) does not affect his draft ranking and his subsequent exposure and development?

Carey Price anyone?
That's funny because Price never played in the U20 as an undrafted player and was downright bad in his u18 appearance in 2005. The World Juniors is a great opportunity to watch the best young prospects compete at a high level for their country, but in no way is the focus on developing players for the sake of their NHL career.

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10-20-2009, 10:17 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by onice View Post
"...10% of all NHL players were completely passed over in the draft but managed to break into the league; the rate among players from Quebec, 19%, is almost twice as high..."

Those stats don't prove that there is discrimination.

Discrimination could be one explanation for those stats.

Another could be that talented Quebecois players are not getting the correct coaching in juniors and only rise to the top when they are exposed to better coaches.

I can think of a half dozen other reasons for those stats. They don't necessarily mean that there's discrimination.
I hope he used other provinces to compare it to this 19% as well. This means nothing without showing us what % of Ontarians or BC'ers or Albertans or even Americans in the NHL aren't drafted.

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10-20-2009, 10:18 AM
  #63
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this whole thing is overblown by crybabies who want preferential treatment. francois beauchemin said it best yesterday on sportscenter: if you're good enough to make the nhl, you will make the nhl. no team will pass up a good player who deserves to make it because of the language they speak.

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10-20-2009, 10:18 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by MTL-rules View Post
Now that's funny!

I still remember when a tv host try to set aside statistical evidence to a university teacher telling him "we can say whatever we want with stats" and the teacher lecturing him about basic science 101, telling him it's completely false!

Stats are science, it's not an art at all, if you think so, it might be time that you get some more education.

The only way stats can "lie" is by using a non-proper methodology and we can't evaluate his study yet.
My first reaction to all these "stats" is that we are comparing players who play in different leagues as if they are all exactly the same.

Like a robot from the WHL is preffered over the robot from the QMHL. That is the only way I could see this "stat" being worth talking about. That would be bias.

The truth is, each region and league has a way to develop players. One way seems to have had more success then another.

As I said in my other post, if there is such a bias, then that same bias would have to be applied to all positions, including golatending. As is obvious, that is not the case.

So... is it everyone else's fault? Or do we have have a responsibility in the fact that our skaters are not as highly touted as our goaltenders?

Can we accept any of the blame?

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10-20-2009, 10:31 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by BeastScottThornton View Post
That's funny because Price never played in the U20 as an undrafted player and was downright bad in his u18 appearance in 2005. The World Juniors is a great opportunity to watch the best young prospects compete at a high level for their country, but in no way is the focus on developing players for the sake of their NHL career.
The Carey Price is more an example of someone who increased his exposure tenfold by a good World Juniors performance, but of course the pre-draft thing doesn't apply to him.

The main thing though is that the overall strenght of Canada's junior teams, and yes perhaps some bias in the selection process, is hindering the development and exposure of francophone players. They get a fraction of the spotlight that goes to Swedish, Finnish, Swiss, Norwegians, Czechs, etc. even though they could field a competitive team.

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Old
10-20-2009, 10:35 AM
  #66
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Can't we just fix the development problems of the Minor leagues and QHL by copying the WHL, OHL or US approach?

Or changing the levels to follow a three years span on each level:

Novice (ages 3-5)
Atom (ages 6-8)
Peewee (ages 9-11)
Bantam (ages 12-14)
Midget (ages 15-17)
Juvenile (ages 18-20) Merge the QMJHL and the QJAAAHL to do the QHL with 24 teams (West, Centre, East, Atlantic)


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10-20-2009, 10:37 AM
  #67
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Personally, I think there may be some truth to this, but I don’t believe it is anti-French. What I think is Scouts/GM’s/fans have a certain pre-conceived notion of the way the game is played in the Q. High scoring, less physical than the other Junior leagues. And I’d agree for the most part they are right. What I believe this causes is a “bias” against the hard working/physical grinders in the Q, because it is thought that standing out as this kind of player in the Q is easier than in the other leagues.

Because of this, players who would probably be just as successful in other junior leagues playing this game are thought less of, because of this pre-conceived notion of the Q. Once these players prove themselves in minor professional leagues, they are then given a chance in the NHL. There is an element of truth to this idea of the Q as a less physical game, but it makes it easier for players of this ilk to fall through the cracks. And of course, these are the type of players who make up the majority of NHL rosters.

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10-20-2009, 10:52 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by MTL-rules View Post
Now that's funny!

I still remember when a tv host try to set aside statistical evidence to a university teacher telling him "we can say whatever we want with stats" and the teacher lecturing him about basic science 101, telling him it's completely false!

Stats are science, it's not an art at all, if you think so, it might be time that you get some more education.

The only way stats can "lie" is by using a non-proper methodology and we can't evaluate his study yet.
Ha! I can recommend some great marketing people who use stats as an art form. The key is to focus on stats that support your position and completely ignore stats that counter it. The Zeitgeist used in the book is stunning really though hardly unexpected so maybe in his next book he'll write about the favoritism of Quebecers over Scandinavians since the stats are also clear on that

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10-20-2009, 11:04 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by JaymzB View Post
Personally, I think there may be some truth to this, but I don’t believe it is anti-French. What I think is Scouts/GM’s/fans have a certain pre-conceived notion of the way the game is played in the Q. High scoring, less physical than the other Junior leagues. And I’d agree for the most part they are right. What I believe this causes is a “bias” against the hard working/physical grinders in the Q, because it is thought that standing out as this kind of player in the Q is easier than in the other leagues.

Because of this, players who would probably be just as successful in other junior leagues playing this game are thought less of, because of this pre-conceived notion of the Q. Once these players prove themselves in minor professional leagues, they are then given a chance in the NHL. There is an element of truth to this idea of the Q as a less physical game, but it makes it easier for players of this ilk to fall through the cracks. And of course, these are the type of players who make up the majority of NHL rosters.
Yes, yes... must find someone or something to blame to distract ourselves from what's really going on so we can feel better about ourselves. If this was the 1920s I'm sure someone would write a book about it.

The simple truth is that QMJHL is falling apart and needs a complete overhaul and the proof of that is the miserable Memorial Cup results and a dwindling number of impact players being drafted in the first 2 rounds.

Heck, I remember a time when the WHL was primarily only good for drafting goons and big players who could barely skate and now look at the league. Change can happen if you look at what really needs to be changed... and take responsibility for it instead of playing the trusted old victim card and doing nothing. Then again, nothing is the path of least resistance

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10-20-2009, 11:06 AM
  #70
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So you think that a player's WHJC (both U18 and U20) does not affect his draft ranking and his subsequent exposure and development?

Carey Price anyone?
You're absolutely right. Price's stellar performance at the 2007 WJHC definitely impacted his draft position at the 2005 NHL Entry draft... Also the fact that he didn't play a single game in the U18 in 2005 must've REALLY impress the scouts...

or perhaps he was drafted based on his dominating numbers during his draft year (8 SO, .920)... I'm just saying...

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10-20-2009, 11:10 AM
  #71
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As for bias, if there is a bias against Francos, why is there not the same bias against goaltenders? To say that it is "different" for goalies, is simply playing both sides of the fence, and picking when your arguement supports your feelings. You cannot have it both ways.

Sometimes the simple answer is the right answer. There is/was a good goaltending tradition in Quebec born out of serious training. Maybe the same cannot be said for skaters, especially Defensemen.
I think that it speaks to the lack of defense in Quebec minor hockey. Goalies have to be fantastic just to keep scores respectable.

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10-20-2009, 11:38 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by husamus156 View Post
the book must be read before giving any judgement...
but what ive heard is
that if you have a french name you have 1 chance in 618
an english name is 1 in 334
Gainey only recruted 2 quebecers with dallas
Dallas recruited 3 from 1993-2008
its the facts taken from Sirois

It doesn't mean that i agree with him ^^


I think that the quebec system needs to be reworked
Umm isn't this because of population demographics ?
There's what 7 million Francophones in North America.
How many million more with English names ? 200 million ?

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Old
10-20-2009, 11:41 AM
  #73
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this strikes me as sour grapes from a guy whop couldn't last in the NHL. Not only that, I highly doubt there is sound research put into this and it likely relies strictly on anecdotal evidence. This book will not be taken seriously.

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10-20-2009, 11:47 AM
  #74
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I don't know about the NHL, but Team Canada has without any doubt selected anglos over francos over the past 30 years, except for goaltenders. It's like if the coach though they would screw the team spirit. But Canada loves Quebecois, and that team should be examplifying what the country is, and how well anglos and francos get along together... no?

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10-20-2009, 11:50 AM
  #75
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"...Recognizing discrimination and highlighting its source are very important steps for us all, because discrimination is very present in the English-Canadian national hockey league," he writes in the book's final paragraph...."


Just that little phrase is an indication of how much thought and research went into this book.

Canadians, Anglos & Francos, make up about 55% of the players.

As for management and coaching staff, well someone better tell Waddell, Burke, Uncle Lou, Tortorella, Murry Wilson and all those other Yanks that for this book they should pretend to be Canucks - English speaking Canucks.

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