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New Book Asks If There Is A Bias In Nhl Against French Players

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Old
10-20-2009, 11:55 AM
  #76
deandebean
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That, gentlemen, is the perfect example of media people accusing the wrong people.

In all of this, the only organisation that never gets blamed but is THE main culprit,is Hockey Québec.

The decline in talented hockey players coming from this province is the result of an organisation that thinks too highly of itself and destroyed generations and generations of hockey players because of bad administrative decisions.

Hockey Québec. Grassroots hockey. Media should lay the blame there.

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10-20-2009, 11:56 AM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onice View Post
"...Recognizing discrimination and highlighting its source are very important steps for us all, because discrimination is very present in the English-Canadian national hockey league," he writes in the book's final paragraph...."


Just that little phrase is an indication of how much thought and research went into this book.

Canadians, Anglos & Francos, make up about 55% of the players.

As for management and coaching staff, well someone better tell Waddell, Burke, Uncle Lou, Tortorella, Murry Wilson and all those other Yanks that for this book they should pretend to be Canucks - English speaking Canucks.
I didn't know that Murry Wilson was a gm...

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Old
10-20-2009, 11:57 AM
  #78
onice
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Originally Posted by deandebean View Post
I didn't know that Murry Wilson was a gm...
I guess you missed the part where I said management and coaching staff.

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10-20-2009, 11:58 AM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kafka View Post
I don't know about the NHL, but Team Canada has without any doubt selected anglos over francos over the past 30 years, except for goaltenders. It's like if the coach though they would screw the team spirit. But Canada loves Quebecois, and that team should be examplifying what the country is, and how well anglos and francos get along together... no?
Reason being that the Anglos they selected were better than the Francos they left behind. Simple when you use basic logic, isn't it.

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10-20-2009, 12:02 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by onice View Post
I guess you missed the part where I said management and coaching staff.
Murray Wilson is neither a coach. He's a radio analyst. Does he count, too?

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Old
10-20-2009, 12:05 PM
  #81
onice
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Originally Posted by deandebean View Post
Murray Wilson is neither a coach. He's a radio analyst. Does he count, too?
The coach for T.O. What's his name? He coached the American team

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10-20-2009, 12:08 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Onisac View Post
No they don't. This is ridiculous. Some players might say some racist stuff, laugh at frenchies or whatever but that's IT. I doubt they'll ignore a player at the draft because he's a quebecer. Seriously, what's wrong with quebecers? They always seem to want to seem like they're victims and think they're special or something. I'm not racist or anything, I'm born here and been living here for 18 years and am technically a Quebecer. I just find their pack mentality ridiculous sometimes.
I see this more then anything.

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10-20-2009, 12:09 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by onice View Post
The coach for T.O. What's his name? He coached the American team
Ron Wilson. But I got your point.

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10-20-2009, 12:12 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kafka View Post
I don't know about the NHL, but Team Canada has without any doubt selected anglos over francos over the past 30 years, except for goaltenders. It's like if the coach though they would screw the team spirit. But Canada loves Quebecois, and that team should be examplifying what the country is, and how well anglos and francos get along together... no?
What do you mean "except"?? You are either biased or discriminatory or your not so how could anyone possibly claim Team Canada does this while they've given THE most important position to a Francophone repeatedly over the years.

Bogus.

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10-20-2009, 12:17 PM
  #85
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Here's another tidbit that's hidden away. At the beginning of last year one of every 5 head coach in the NHL was a Francophone:

Lemaire
Carbonneau
Julien
Hartley
Therrien
Vigneault.

Yeah there's discrimination in the NHL. It should be one of every 3 or 2 coaches.

This year

Lemaire
Martin
Vigneault
Julien

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Old
10-20-2009, 12:18 PM
  #86
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This is extremely ridiculous. As a quebecer myself, I'm extremely ashamed of people like Sirois. If you think something is wrong, do something about it, don't write a book about it for personal profit.

The thing Sirois and the people who back him up don't seem to understand is that times have changed. The nationalities in the NHL are much more diversified than 20-30 years ago. There's more Russians, more Swedes, more Finns, more Belarussians, more Czechs, more Slovaks. It's only rational logic to understand that the decrease in the number of french-canadian players is normal. But no, it's discrimination, it's racism, it's unacceptable. ****.

I seriously can't take this anymore. Stop whining, stop trying to prove to everyone that you get treated unfairly, take it like a man and strive. I'm tired of the insecurity and paranoia surrounding this province.

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Old
10-20-2009, 12:19 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Dogbert View Post
I think that it speaks to the lack of defense in Quebec minor hockey. Goalies have to be fantastic just to keep scores respectable.
I think you're talking about a bygone era. My criticism has been that players from pee wee thru midget seem system rather than play oriented. Kids are afraid to take the puck and go with it if it doesn't fit into a wanna be Roger Neilson's vision.

I think some human nature rules apply. Stars and big upside gets noticed, It's a business, you ignore talent, you don't last. Filling out rosters with role players, your comfort zone guys, it's easier to take someone like you. A Sutter seems to want a Sutter clone, just as an example.I doubt he has anything against a guy from the Q, but he has mental file cards on 50 3rd liners that he's noticed in small town Alberta.

Maybe there are a few guys at managerial levels that have biases, but not many. The last documented comment I heard was Tony Esposito in Pitt. and he was fired soon after, though the details are vague.

I think a lot of issues have diluted Q hockey, look at how many kids play football now ? No province has as many kids in the pro pipeline.

I won't talk about elite player development because there are posters that actually know this stuff.

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Old
10-20-2009, 12:32 PM
  #88
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The QMJHL is one of the most entertaining league to watch. I lived in Rimouski when they had Crosby : It cost me 5$ a game (as a student) to watch a bunch of goals and fights and I often had a lot of fun. That being said, it's not a good development league. The primary goal is to offer a good product which will sold as much tickets as possible. There's too much games/travel for teenagers. They can blame who they want, but the major problem is right under their nose.

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Old
10-20-2009, 12:34 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onice View Post
Here's another tidbit that's hidden away. At the beginning of last year one of every 5 head coach in the NHL was a Francophone:

Lemaire
Carbonneau
Julien
Hartley
Therrien
Vigneault.

Yeah there's discrimination in the NHL. It should be one of every 3 or 2 coaches.

This year

Lemaire
Martin
Vigneault
Julien
You're not helping your point at all.

Where do you think those coaches go their first job?

Lemaire = Montreal
Carbonneau = Montreal
Julien= Montreal
Hartley= Hershey (Nordiques) under J. Martin, promoted to ex-Nordiques by Lacroix
Therrien= Montreal
Vigneault= Montreal
Martin= StL (briefly) hired by GM Ron Caron, hired by Nordiques (Hershey, Ass coach), hired by Ottawa (his neighborhood team)

How does this contradict the argument in any way? Look up all other francophones ex-coaches as well. The only one I can think of that did not get his big break with either the Habs or the Nordiques is Denis Savard with Chicago, and I think we can all see the connection there.

Addition: I just noticed every francophone coach working now is a Jack Adams winner. I guess the bar is set pretty high. Of the other three, Carbo and Therrien were finalists for the Adams and Hartely won the cup.


Last edited by Not The One: 10-20-2009 at 01:20 PM. Reason: New info
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Old
10-20-2009, 01:01 PM
  #90
cjbhab
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No.. french players arent discriminated against..

They arent drafted because they SUCK at hockey.. like hands down suck **** at hockey..not because they are french.

Whoever wrote the book is SCUM and a racist for even thinking it.

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Old
10-20-2009, 01:02 PM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Onisac View Post
No they don't. This is ridiculous. Some players might say some racist stuff, laugh at frenchies or whatever but that's IT. I doubt they'll ignore a player at the draft because he's a quebecer. Seriously, what's wrong with quebecers? They always seem to want to seem like they're victims and think they're special or something. I'm not racist or anything, I'm born here and been living here for 18 years and am technically a Quebecer. I just find their pack mentality ridiculous sometimes.
The fact that you use a "they" to generalize about 7millions people and that you use such sentences as "what's wrong with Quebecers" or "their pack mentality" is in itself filled with prejudices...

Sirois argues that the NHL is old boy's club controled by English speakers.
He thinks every other group except English canadians and Americans are discriminated against.
So it is not solely about Quebec.

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Old
10-20-2009, 01:06 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by cjbhab View Post
No.. french players arent discriminated against..

They arent drafted because they SUCK at hockey.. like hands down suck **** at hockey..not because they are french.

Whoever wrote the book is SCUM and a racist for even thinking it.
I hope you are aware of the irony behind your comment: you're making a racist comment just before accusing someone of racism.

Saying french players suck at hockey is a racist comment. Just like saying black people suck in the Quarterback position is a racist comment. Just like saying black kids are less intelligent is a racist comment. Just like saying Jews are pennywise is a racist comment.

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Old
10-20-2009, 01:11 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Unspoken View Post
I hope you are aware of the irony behind your comment: you're making a racist comment just before accusing someone of racism.

Saying french players suck at hockey is a racist comment. Just like saying black people suck in the Quarterback position is a racist comment. Just like saying black kids are less intelligent is a racist comment. Just like saying Jews are pennywise is a racist comment.
you'd have to think the post was intended as a joke wouldn't you ? It takes a certain level of ability to post something, not a high level evidently, but still, he's kidding I think.

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Old
10-20-2009, 01:17 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Akost View Post
This is extremely ridiculous. As a quebecer myself, I'm extremely ashamed of people like Sirois. If you think something is wrong, do something about it, don't write a book about it for personal profit.

The thing Sirois and the people who back him up don't seem to understand is that times have changed. The nationalities in the NHL are much more diversified than 20-30 years ago. There's more Russians, more Swedes, more Finns, more Belarussians, more Czechs, more Slovaks. It's only rational logic to understand that the decrease in the number of french-canadian players is normal. But no, it's discrimination, it's racism, it's unacceptable. ****.

I seriously can't take this anymore. Stop whining, stop trying to prove to everyone that you get treated unfairly, take it like a man and strive. I'm tired of the insecurity and paranoia surrounding this province.
I don't get this part. Before "doing" something about a problem, shouldn't the first step be to verify if there really is a problem or not?
Isn't that what he tried to do with his research: trying to find if there is a problem or not?

You know, getting the facts straight before having an opinion about it...

Actually, I don't get most of the posts here. Yours is a perfect example. No one has read the book. Yet, many condemns him. It seems he makes his case by using data instead of anecdotes or examples.

Before criticizing the guy or arguing against, shouldn't you all at least read about his main arguments, his main findings?
The guy seemed to have done a research from what I understand, not an opinion piece.

This is not the same as criticizing Réjean Tremblay for his biased anecdotes. There is research behind this book. The statistics and the tables he provides have to be examined closely before being so easily dismissed.

For my part, I heard an interview. He seemed to have a few interesting statistics. Some of these needed closer examination before starting to attack or laud him.
Doing one of these before getting the necessary information is pretty close minded imho

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Old
10-20-2009, 01:19 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by mcphee View Post
you'd have to think the post was intended as a joke wouldn't you ? It takes a certain level of ability to post something, not a high level evidently, but still, he's kidding I think.
That was a possibility I contemplated but since most around here place a when they do this, I decided to ask him if he was aware of the irony in his post.

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Old
10-20-2009, 01:22 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Bitterman View Post
What do you mean "except"?? You are either biased or discriminatory or your not so how could anyone possibly claim Team Canada does this while they've given THE most important position to a Francophone repeatedly over the years.

Bogus.
Prejudices are complex.
You can have a negative prejudice toward francophone defensemen, while having a positive prejudice toward francophone goalie

Have you never heard of the impact of Patrick Roy and the Quebec-goalie trend during the 90s?

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Old
10-20-2009, 01:24 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Unspoken View Post
The fact that you use a "they" to generalize about 7millions people and that you use such sentences as "what's wrong with Quebecers" or "their pack mentality" is in itself filled with prejudices...

Sirois argues that the NHL is old boy's club controled by English speakers.
He thinks every other group except English canadians and Americans are discriminated against.
So it is not solely about Quebec.
wouldn't it be fair to suggest that any extreme majority, is biased, or at the very least, more comfortable with others of that majority, in pretty well any business or social situation ? At least to a degree ?

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Old
10-20-2009, 01:25 PM
  #98
onice
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Originally Posted by Not The One View Post
You're not helping your point at all.

Where do you think those coaches go their first job?

Lemaire = Montreal
Carbonneau = Montreal
Julien= Montreal
Hartley= Hershey (Nordiques) under J. Martin, promoted to ex-Nordiques by Lacroix
Therrien= Montreal
Vigneault= Montreal
Martin= StL (briefly) hired by GM Ron Caron, hired by Nordiques (Hershey, Ass coach), hired by Ottawa (his neighborhood team)

How does this contradict the argument in any way? Look up all other francophones ex-coaches as well. The only one I can think of that did not get his big break with either the Habs or the Nordiques is Denis Savard with Chicago, and I think we can all see the connection there.

Addition: I just noticed every francophone coach working now is a Jack Adams winner. I guess the bar is set pretty high. Of the other three, Carbo and Therrien were finalists for the Adams and Hartely won the cup.
Stop and think for a sec. Who effing cares where they started? They were still working and they were working for those blockheads the Anglos. If there was discrimination those coaches would never get a second chance once they left Montreal.

But don't let logic stand in the way of your paranoia.

As for the red : Or maybe those damn Englishmen (factious) are not as bigoted as you thought and are willing to reward the deserving Francos.


Last edited by onice: 10-20-2009 at 01:30 PM.
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Old
10-20-2009, 01:28 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by onice View Post
Stop and think for a sec. Who effing cares where they started? They were still working and they were working for those blockheads the Anglos. If there was discrimination those coaches would never get a second chance once they left Montreal.

But don't let logic stand in the way of your paranoia.
does that suggest that Mtl does indeed have a resonsibility to hire local ? If not them, who ?

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Old
10-20-2009, 01:32 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by onice View Post
Stop and think for a sec. Who effing cares where they started? They were still working and they were working for those blockheads the Anglos. If there was discrimination those coaches would never get a second chance once they left Montreal.

But don't let logic stand in the way of your paranoia.
This is so obvious to answer.
Once, you're a proven coach or player. Prejudices play a much lesser role.
Lemaire proved to the NHL he was a great coach. The guy coaching in the QHL has not. ANd he won't have the opportunity to prove it unless Montreal (or the Nordiques...) hires him.

The question you have to ask yourself is: if there were no teams in quebec, would any of these coaches have reached the NHL?
Would any other team have recruited them?
How many non-francophone team hired a francophone coach that didn't reach the NHL through a Quebec team?

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