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New Book Asks If There Is A Bias In Nhl Against French Players

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Old
10-20-2009, 01:37 PM
  #101
Not The One
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Originally Posted by onice View Post
Stop and think for a sec. Who effing cares where they started? They were still working and they were working for those blockheads the Anglos. If there was discrimination those coaches would never get a second chance once they left Montreal.

But don't let logic stand in the way of your paranoia.
Ugh... can you read. Every francophone head coach in the NHL was hired either by an other francophone or by the Habs. What a coincidence.

The four who are still working are ALL former Jack Adams winners. What a coincidence.

If you want to go deeper, no anglophone (non Habs) GM has hired a rookie francophone coach in the last thirty years, except for Chicago legend Denis Savard in Chicago. How many anglophone rookie coaches were hired within that span, 100, 200? Those are pretty significant stats.

Is that clear enough for you?

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10-20-2009, 01:39 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Unspoken View Post
This is so obvious to answer.
Once, you're a proven coach or player. Prejudices play a much lesser role.
Lemaire proved to the NHL he was a great coach. The guy coaching in the QHL has not. ANd he won't have the opportunity to prove it unless Montreal (or the Nordiques...) hires him.

The question you have to ask yourself is: if there were no teams in quebec, would any of these coaches have reached the NHL?
Would any other team have recruited them?
How many non-francophone team hired a francophone coach that didn't reach the NHL through a Quebec team?
I'm starting to lose it with your BS.

Lemaire proved nothing in Montreal. Neither did Vigneault, Julien or Therrien. They became successes once outside Montreal. Once they were hired by the Englishhhhh.

Martin was given his first ass coaching job in St Louis by un maudit anglais (Iron Mike) and still hadn't won anything by the time he moved to Ottawa. Hartley is the exception. He won when his GM was a Francophone in an English speaking city.

You're entitled to your opinion, uninformed as it is, but you are not entitled to your own facts.

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10-20-2009, 01:40 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Not The One View Post
Ugh... can you read. Every francophone head coach in the NHL was hired either by an other francophone or by the Habs. What a coincidence.

The four who are still working are ALL former Jack Adams winners. What a coincidence.

If you want to go deeper, no anglophone (non Habs) GM has hired a rookie francophone coach in the last thirty years, except for Chicago legend Denis Savard in Chicago. How many anglophone rookie coaches were hired within that span, 100, 200? Those are pretty significant stats.

Is that clear enough for you?
Don't want to jump in this thread because first you are right and two I,m tired of that debate, but yes there was one coach from Laval (Pierre Cramer), but I think that Mario asked for him.

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10-20-2009, 01:43 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by onice View Post
I'm starting to lose it with your BS.

Lemaire proved nothing in Montreal. Neither did Vigneault, Julien or Therrien. They became successes once outside Montreal. Once they were hired by the Englishhhhh.

Martin was given his first ass coaching job in St Louis by un maudit anglais and still hadn't won anything by the time he moved to Ottawa. Hartley is the exception. He won when his GM was a Francophone in an English speaking city.

You're entitled to your opinion, uninformed as it is, but you are not entitled to your own facts.
Martin was hired by Ron Caron, I think, time line is hazy. It does seem that people hire who they are comfortable with, until guys become at least known in the league. I don't think that's particular to English/French or to hockey . Right or wrong, when possible, people hire to their comfort zone.

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10-20-2009, 01:43 PM
  #105
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Maybe NHL teams outside Quebec don't hire coaches out of the QMJHL because of the bad reputation it has? Coaches who prove that they are capable of coaching the NHL style of play will get jobs, and coaches who are still stuck in the 1980s firewagon craze won't.

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10-20-2009, 01:44 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by onice View Post
I'm starting to lose it with your BS.

Lemaire proved nothing in Montreal. Neither did Vigneault, Julien or Therrien. They became successes once outside Montreal. Once they were hired by the Englishhhhh.

Martin was given his first ass coaching job in St Louis by un maudit anglais and still hadn't won anything by the time he moved to Ottawa. Hartley is the exception. He won when his GM was a Francophone in an English speaking city.

You're entitled to your opinion, uninformed as it is, but you are not entitled to your own facts.
Ronald "Ron" Caron was the GM in Saint-Louis during that time. Not exactly "un maudit anglais". How did he get his start? He was assistant GM in Montreal during the 70's. What a coincidence!

Any arguments left?

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10-20-2009, 01:47 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Not The One View Post
Ronald "Ron" Caron was the GM in Saint-Louis during that time. Not exactly "un maudit anglais". How did he get his start? He was assistant GM in Montreal during the 70's. What a coincidence!

Any arguments left?
Lou Nanne hired Pierre Pagé to coach the North Stars in 1988.

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10-20-2009, 01:48 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Dogbert View Post
Maybe NHL teams outside Quebec don't hire coaches out of the QMJHL because of the bad reputation it has? Coaches who prove that they are capable of coaching the NHL style of play will get jobs, and coaches who are still stuck in the 1980s firewagon craze won't.
I'd like to see stats bearing this out. I don't believe it applies anymore. I think there are provincial talent and development issues, but the firewagon thing is a strawman,imo.

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10-20-2009, 01:50 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by mcphee View Post
Martin was hired by Ron Caron, I think, time line is hazy. It does seem that people hire who they are comfortable with, until guys become at least known in the league. I don't think that's particular to English/French or to hockey . Right or wrong, when possible, people hire to their comfort zone.
I friggin forget his name Iron Mike - the GM in Florida who traded away Loungo,- coached with Martin in an American college, asked Caron to hire Martin in St Louis. He also hired Martin as head coach of Florida once he was GM. And by the way who hired Professor Caron as GM in St Louis when he was only in charge of scouting in Montreal? Was it a damn anglo.

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10-20-2009, 01:51 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Dogbert View Post
Lou Nanne hired Pierre Pagé to coach the North Stars in 1988.
You sir, are right! I learned something new today.

Louis Vincent "Lou" Nanne from Sault Ste. Marie hired Pierre Pagé in 1988.



Last edited by Not The One: 10-20-2009 at 01:53 PM. Reason: spelling
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10-20-2009, 01:54 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Dogbert View Post
Lou Nanne hired Pierre Pagé to coach the North Stars in 1988.
Lou Nanne doesn't count. He was a canadian who turned American. Damn traitor.

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10-20-2009, 02:00 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by mcphee View Post
I'd like to see stats bearing this out. I don't believe it applies anymore. I think there are provincial talent and development issues, but the firewagon thing is a strawman,imo.
Average Goals Per Game for the 3 leagues in the last 9 seasons (2005-2006 is missing for the WHL):

QMJHL: 7.04
OHL: 6.77
WHL: 6.34

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10-20-2009, 02:02 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Not The One View Post
You sir, are right! I learned something new today.

Louis Vincent "Lou" Nanne from Sault Ste. Marie hired Pierre Pagé in 1988.

Sorry, I messed up. Nanne didn't hire Pagé; he retired on January 28 of that year, and Pagé didn't start coaching the Stars until the beginning of 1988-89. Jack Ferriera was the one who hired him.

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10-20-2009, 02:03 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by onice View Post
I friggin forget his name Iron Mike - the GM in Florida who traded away Loungo,- coached with Martin in an American college, asked Caron to hire Martin in St Louis. He also hired Martin as head coach of Florida once he was GM. And by the way who hired Professor Caron as GM in St Louis when he was only in charge of scouting in Montreal? Was it a damn anglo.
My point is that it seems that a local guy needs more of a boost to get a foot in the door. The Habs have usually, indirectly been this boost, and I guess they should. Coaching jobs are acquired thru connections, just like scouting jobs, though there's some obvious generalizations there. I think it's perefctly natural, in terms of how most people act, to see people hire from their immediate group of reference.

If your group of refernce is expanded, like Keenan's was, so does the talent pool you choose from. I'm not sure what we're trying to prove here.

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10-20-2009, 02:03 PM
  #115
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I think the QMJHL definitely deserves a bit of an overhaul in terms of its internal structure (there's been some serious problems over the years there =\) and it probably is affected the development of some young players in the Q but to suggest that the Q is an inadequate league or that it's soft is . It also affects both anglophone and francophone players since both play in this league.
Never said they were, or weren't soft, I was just saying the league is the worst out of the OHL and WHL.


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It's this kind of attitude that can frustrate francophones and perpetuates stereotypes about anglophones. Can't you see this comes off not only as demeaning but condescending?
Didn't mean for it to sound condescending, or like I'm holier-than-thou type speech, but I was just stating facts. Another person showed stats of Quebec with less population having more players in the NHL than Sweden.

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Have you bothered to read the summary of this article, or have you read any article before on francophone drafting in the NHL? Sirois points out that there's almost 2x the chance for anglophone Quebecers to get drafted into the NHL over francophone Quebecers. Sirois is not an idiot and he's using two control groups in a correlational study that theoretically live and train in similar environments (whether that's actually true is up for question). Both anglo and franco Quebecers play in the Q and both get drafted from the Q- why is then twice as likely for an Anglophone Quebecer to get drafted into the NHL when he comes from the same coaching, training and living environment who's grown up alongside francophone friends ?
Beats me, however if I and others were to see the list ( more than likely included in the book) I'm sure you could say why, or how. Probably the quality of players potentially.

Two players that come to mind that are anglo quebecers are Pominville and Lombardi. Pominville has skill and Lombardi has incredible speed and he's defensively capable, he's a great pker, especially thanks to his speed. Those are the first two that come to mind.

Quote:
Is it discrimination? It's possible, but I don't think it's proven or that Sirois' conclusions entail the latter. Bias as Partisan pointed out is probably more likely given that NHL teams don't have as much of a rationale to discriminate against players if they can get talent other teams can't. There might be other factors too such as better access to cross-Canada training for anglophones or allophones (who afaik are ignored or unaccounted for in the study, probably assuming Anglos are Allos for the most part) due to less language barriers or anglos/allos being able to more easily attend American schools and colleges- some of which have good hockey programs. Might even be linguistic pressures on Francophone players to integrate into the NHL's anglo culture who knows- Sirois' study addresses the contours of statistics not these sorts of personal things (or not in great detail).
Pretty much. If player A is a quebecois and he's the BPA while the other guy is clearly a step behind player A, but player B is Anglophone. The GM is going to take player A 9/10 times. That one time being Don Cherry if he somehow managed to get back in.


Quote:
As I've mentioned you've ignored some pretty important facts, and it seems your argument is more an emotional one that's built on anecdotes and appeals to the idea that francophone Quebec is fully to blame (while the Q definitely does need work I think it's unfair to levy criticism given the facts). I don't think anyone here is arguing that NHL executives go out of their way to exclude French-Canadian players (perhaps if one was a really big jerk...in Toronto ), but that a bias is [perhaps even more sinisterly] pervasive in the culture of NHL executives, scouts, broadcasters, players etc. It's something the NHL should look into and work on, but it's not something to berrate players about or execs if it's impersonal like that. Like others have said, it might even reasonably apply to Euros and other foreign players. It's just something that needs to be addressed and communicated better, and hopefully more studies are done on stuff like this (not just francos too all sorts of groups, it's very interesting to me )
Not so much emotional, as I'm just sick and tired of any little thing that someone in Quebec, whether English, French or whatever turns into something whining.

I'm probably more of a Quebec/French sympathizer than most anglos, but this is ignorant.

What does this guy's book hope to achieve ? To get the general population to stand up and say "Hey! Pourquoi il n'y a pas plus de francophone dans le LNH ?" Seems like this book is meant to inform the francophone inhabitants rather than try and educate the everyone else. As I haven't found it to be in English as well.

Though, with this book, I'm sure one will come out about the discrimination against Russians, where all of them, unless they state otherwise are considered a risk for them to even come over.

How about the discrimination of Euros being soft and no team wanting them ?

Yes, throughout the league's history there has been discrimination against pretty much every type of player except Anglophones. In today's NHL, teams want a competitive team, so they don't care where you're from, they'll take you if you have the skill.

Basically, I'm trying to say it's a stupid idea to fathom something like this. Maurice Richard had a reason, there isn't one today.

Just to make things clear, I'm not taking a shot at French, Quebec, or their residents, just the author of the book.

I won't be reading this book... mainly because I can't and don't like books whether they're French, or English.

http://watch.tsn.ca/nhl/clip225453#clip225453

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10-20-2009, 02:05 PM
  #116
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Average Goals Per Game for the 3 leagues in the last 9 seasons (2005-2006 is missing for the WHL):

QMJHL: 7.04
OHL: 6.77
WHL: 6.34
Well that is more, I'm not convinced it shows a more open style though. This isn't 30 years ago when the GUy Rouleau's of the world were piling up laughable numbers.

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10-20-2009, 02:05 PM
  #117
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I'm starting to lose it with your BS.

Lemaire proved nothing in Montreal. Neither did Vigneault, Julien or Therrien. They became successes once outside Montreal. Once they were hired by the Englishhhhh.

Martin was given his first ass coaching job in St Louis by un maudit anglais (Iron Mike) and still hadn't won anything by the time he moved to Ottawa. Hartley is the exception. He won when his GM was a Francophone in an English speaking city.

You're entitled to your opinion, uninformed as it is, but you are not entitled to your own facts.
When I mean "prove", I just mean proving that you are NHL caliber, not that you are a Jack Adams coach.

Look, this is not against English. I'm sorry you take it personal. I don't. I live in Ottawa. Half of my friends are English speaking. This does not have to be a "us vs. them".

I just say: look at the datas before coming here with your opinion.

I just try to look at the facts. The fact is the overwhelming majority of franco coaches were "revealed" to the rest of the NHL because they were hired by Montreal or Quebec.
It can be easily infered that many of these Jack Adams coaches probably would never have reached the NHL otherwise.

Another data I heard (in the interview) which raised my curiosity on the issue: out of every regular francophone players in the NHL, 40% received individual honors such as trophies for their personnal excellence in a particular aspect of the game (goals, etc.). 40% is way higher than for anglophones.
Why?
To me, it looks like in order to become a regular nhl players, francophones have to be better than anglophones.

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10-20-2009, 02:11 PM
  #118
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I just remebered that Vigneault did not get his break with Montreal. He was assistant coach to Rick Bowness (spelling) in Ottawa. Now Rick is from New Brunswick but he's still an anglo. And then he spent how many years in the Q again before being hired as head coach of vancouver? Must be because some old fart in the Canucks organization remembered him as a coach for the Habs 5-6 years earlier.

Same with Therrien. How many years did he spend in the A before being called up again?


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10-20-2009, 02:14 PM
  #119
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I just remebered that Vigneault did not get his break with Montreal. He was assistant coach to Rick Bowness (spelling) in Ottawa. Now Rick is from New Brunswick but he's still an anglo.
but who was Bones roomate in junior ?

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10-20-2009, 02:14 PM
  #120
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Look, this is not against English. I'm sorry you take it personal. .
You got it wrong I don't take it personally. I'm not English but I'm not French either. I'm ethnic and I've had it up to here with this crap. Yeah there are bigots out there in the English community. Just as there are in the French.

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10-20-2009, 02:15 PM
  #121
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I just remebered that Vigneault did not get his break with Montreal. He was assistant coach to Rick Bowness (spelling) in Ottawa. Now Rick is from New Brunswick but he's still an anglo.
See, that is why, I'm open-minded about this book. We can all come up with a few examples or anecdotes.
This, then, becomes a never endind serie of examples. This doesn't enlighten the debate.

Verifiable statistics can give a much better light on this issue.

The fact that 40% of regular francophone players received individual honors for their performances should raise eyebrows.

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10-20-2009, 02:16 PM
  #122
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How many current PQ NHL’ers are Anglo’s? I can think of Lombardi, Pominville, Luongo, Ribeiro (though wouldn’t he be an Allophone?), Esposito in the minors. Anyone else?

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10-20-2009, 02:18 PM
  #123
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Sorry, I messed up. Nanne didn't hire Pagé; he retired on January 28 of that year, and Pagé didn't start coaching the Stars until the beginning of 1988-89. Jack Ferriera was the one who hired him.
Right again! Pagé seems to be an exception, since he started coaching in the CIAU in Halifax and was hired as an assistant in Calgary from there. Maybe there's a francophone connection in Calgary but I doubt it. Anyways, he was hired shortly after Nanne retired. He probably put a good word on his behalf though.

I do think we are pumbing the dephts of obscure hockey lore at this point.

I'm still chuckling from the Lou Nanne thing though. I never would have guessed!

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10-20-2009, 02:20 PM
  #124
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How many current PQ NHL’ers are Anglo’s? I can think of Lombardi, Pominville, Luongo, Ribeiro (though wouldn’t he be an Allophone?), Esposito in the minors. Anyone else?
If you mean players where English was spoken at home, geez, Lombardi for sure, you sure about Pominville ?

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10-20-2009, 02:20 PM
  #125
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Well that is more, I'm not convinced it shows a more open style though. This isn't 30 years ago when the GUy Rouleau's of the world were piling up laughable numbers.
I think there is a bit of truth to the idea the Q is more of a offense first league, and I also think that notion can cause Scouts and teams to overlook some good defensive/physical talent in the Q.

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