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New Book Asks If There Is A Bias In Nhl Against French Players

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Old
10-20-2009, 04:19 PM
  #176
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Originally Posted by THE HOFF View Post
so you basically replied to yourself there ...as I doubt any other coach would have played him with crosby ... you have the right to your opinion ... but I have the right to doubt that his progression and his impact on the pens would have been as important and fast without terrien...



you might want to entirely read my post before replying. Never did I say discrimination was the only explanation ... I even outlined development problems in quebec to be a cause ... nonetheless I consider the debate about discrimination to be healthy ...



thats your opinion ... but same could be said about you ... that you see what you want to see ...

With the same level of talent and upside ... the don cherrys of this world are NEVER going to pick a quebecer ... ain't that the truth ? It depends on the individuals ... I'm not saying discrimination is everywhere ... but to say there is NONE is pretty innacurate imho. this issue isn't black or white.
The highlighted is subjective is it not? by whose measure is the level of talent and potential upside? You can't say someone is being discriminatory but not have the actual fact of how or why they picked a player.

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10-20-2009, 04:20 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by 3rdMangHigh View Post
bruins fan, here in peace, just wondering where all the discriminated french all stars are playing, we could use a couple
Your team signed Yannick Riendeau without having to draft him

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10-20-2009, 04:28 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by Koseegin View Post
As someone mentioned earlier.

In Quebec, it is not seen as discrimination to pick a francophone over an anglophone when both are equal in talent because it represents their fan base.

But in the rest of Canada and the U.S.A, it is seen as discrimination to pick the anglophone over the francophone, both of whom share equal talent because it repsents their fan base.

Hypocracy no?

If you want more arguments to counter the stupidity of this article, look at the link someone provided on the previous page. Discrimination in 50s? Yes, no one is denying that. Nowadays? No way too much accountability, hockey is easily accessed, discontent is easily voiced compared to long ago, too much accountability in the management for them to discriminate against certain types of people.

This has more to do with playing the victim than discrimination. Nationalism is dying in Quebec and many are trying to scare people back into the Vivre le Qubebec libre era. especially the older folk who are starting to see a rise in bilingualism in Quebec among the francophone community and are scared that this phenomenon is the first step towards and anglicized province because as more people learn english, the more they will use it because it is such a widely used language. Look at these boards, most of you spend a good 45% of your day here, using english which is not your first language, the process has already begun. People are using propaganda to scare people away from what is happening. It's Sad, but true.
I agree its hypocrite sometimes when you turn the radio on CKAC and hear professionals ...and experts having a bias ...

totally different though when you look at the way the montreal canadiens have been chosing their players ... as long as it does not apply to our team ... and I don't think it does ... you can't really say anything ...

as for mixing politics with hockey, even with good intentions ... its always a fail.

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10-20-2009, 04:30 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by Unspoken View Post
You're right both are discriminations. It goes both ways.

On the rest however, it is a debate you shied from in another thread because you have a hard time understanding what culture is.
And saying you wish people in Quebec continue to speak french is not propaganda. To me, it's like saying you wish democracy and freedom continue to exist in Canada

On the other hand, arguing for the anglicization of Québec (it's not the same as bilingualism; for instance I wish everyone spoke at least two languages) is a form of cultural imperialism.
Yes it is discrimation both ways. Yet I don't see why someone who prefers the one situation that favors his cause can point the finger and complain about the other.

No one is arguing for the anglicization of Quebec. It's simple pointing out what is occuring. Look at the level of bilingualism of 15 years ago compared to now and I'm sure the numbers have increased significantly. If you took an anthropology class about the evolution of languages you'll see that they all occur in the same way. You have a land divided into two languages. One of the language is a dominant one because it is the language of commerce. The other fights to sustain the use of it's language, at first the language begins to adopt phrases from the dominant one(something which has occured and I believe the term is coined "anglicism") and eventually you have one culture who is perfectly bilingual. Once bilingualism occurs, those who speak both languages tend to use the dominant one more often because of it being the language of commerce and through a slow process the language is eventually drowned out.

The same will eventually happen to the english language as happened with Latin before it and so on. Crap evolves and changes.

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10-20-2009, 04:33 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by THE HOFF View Post
I agree its hypocrite sometimes when you turn the radio on CKAC and hear professionals ...and experts having a bias ...

totally different though when you look at the way the montreal canadiens have been chosing their players ... as long as it does not apply to our team ... and I don't think it does ... you can't really say anything ...

as for mixing politics with hockey, even with good intentions ... its always a fail.
Of course, mixing politics with sports is always a fail, but this is precisly what the author of this book is attempting to do. All he has are numbers than can be explained through a variety of ways, yet only looks at one way to explain them, ignored all other explanations and regards his at fact. Some insecure person with an inferiority complex reads this book and believes it to be true causing a giant uproar.

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10-20-2009, 04:41 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
Yup, and for every Don Cherry of this world there's a Jean Perron or a JC Lajoie willing to bet their life on a prospect for the simple fact he has a french name...
does discrimination against quebecer would (notice the verb) mean that quebecers don't discriminate? ... no! of course not ...

but somehow its a crime to say that there might be some truth in this book ... the problem is not the possible discrimination element ... which I believe, has some truth to it .... no ... its the fact that we, as a minority of french speaking culture in north america are prevented to brainstorm and even mention the word discrimination, as if it has never existed towards us in any possible way...

by the way ... there is not one person that has been heard as much in canada than don cherry hockey wise ... the simple fact that he was allowed to say the things he said shows at least without any official opposition from CBC, shows, at least ... that our own public tv channel doesnt have sensibility towards that issue ...

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10-20-2009, 04:47 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by THE HOFF View Post
does discrimination against quebecer would (notice the verb) mean that quebecers don't discriminate? ... no! of course not ...

but somehow its a crime to say that there might be some truth in this book ... the problem is not the possible discrimination element ... which I believe, has some truth to it .... no ... its the fact that we, as a minority of french speaking culture in north america are prevented to brainstorm and even mention the word discrimination, as if it has never existed towards us in any possible way...

by the way ... there is not one person that has been heard as much in canada than don cherry hockey wise ... the simple fact that he was allowed to say the things he said shows at least without any official opposition from CBC, shows, at least ... that our own public tv channel doesnt have sensibility towards that issue ...
Great... The author may be right in anglo Quebec players are drafted more than Franco Quebecers. But as for Quebec as a whole, there's no discrimination.

Don Cherry says a lot of stupid stuff. This is starting to turn into another English Vs French thread. Total fail. Way to play the victim card here...

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Old
10-20-2009, 04:48 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by Koseegin View Post
Of course, mixing politics with sports is always a fail, but this is precisly what the author of this book is attempting to do. All he has are numbers than can be explained through a variety of ways, yet only looks at one way to explain them, ignored all other explanations and regards his at fact. Some insecure person with an inferiority complex reads this book and believes it to be true causing a giant uproar.
Saying 45 % of people here are speaking english as a 2nd language and that it contributes to the french culture fading away is pure ignorance in my humble opinion.

thats like me saying 55% of people can't understand our reality ... its ****ing ********.

Never did I say this book was ''good'' ''bad'' ... ''right'' ....''wrong'' ... but can't we ask ourselves some questions ? why can't a debate on discrimination be healthy ? why can't this book have ''some'' truth? ...

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Old
10-20-2009, 04:52 PM
  #184
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Jeremy Filosa, of CKAC,has the best piece written. Québec has a proportionate number of hockey players in the NHL. Point à la ligne .

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10-20-2009, 04:55 PM
  #185
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In the past like 6 pages the bulk of what's been said here is just emotional.
"The statistics can't be right QUEBECERS AREN'T DISCRIMINATED" "LOOK at french players in the league ANGLOS LOVE YOU" "sirois only did this for $$$!!!!" blah blah.



Look we know that. Sirois isn't however manipulating or complicating facts or fabricating relationships with data, his conclusion certainly is not supported by the relationship he looked at and he doesn't even bother to consider more then a few alternate explanations, but it seems to be true that French-Canadians get drafted less from the Q then English-Canadians do.

I think that's significant and it's something worth looking more into. The relationship is there. Whether you want to deny it and rant on about Quebec's history or try and rationalize language-controversies in Quebec that's all irrelevant, the fact is Anglophones are getting drafted more over Francophones from the Q. That actually asks an interesting question: why?

It's certainly possible discrimination is a factor. It seems like a poor explanation to me however given the need for NHL talent regardless of where it come from, and while it's probably in the minds of some execs it seems really far-fetched to blame it all on some internal hate/distaste for Quebec- if that's true, does Jacques Martin hate Quebec- cause his franco draft record on Florida wasn't superb? There seems to be a lot more going on here then just some weird systematic conspiracy against francoprshone playe. I'd be interested in francophone player development, their access to Canada-wide clinics, participation in international tournaments and where this differs from anglo player development. Do they play on the same teams? Are certain teams in the Q not producing the same amount of talent as other teams in the Q? etc. Does scouting bother to go look at these areas, what are the perceptions of Quebec power forwards etc. or could it be problems in the Q that are particularly acute among French players (I remember a few years back cocaine and amphetamine use was pretty high in the Q). If it's only among francophones why? Does it affect anglophones?

It brings up lots of interesting questions that hopefully some more sober people take a look at .

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10-20-2009, 04:57 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by THE HOFF View Post
Saying 45 % of people here are speaking english as a 2nd language and that it contributes to the french culture fading away is pure ignorance in my humble opinion.

thats like me saying 55% of people can't understand our reality ... its ****ing ********.

Never did I say this book was ''good'' ''bad'' ... ''right'' ....''wrong'' ... but can't we ask ourselves some questions ? why can't a debate on discrimination be healthy ? why can't this book have ''some'' truth? ...
What is "some" truth? If it's "some" truth, then it's not truth at all. It's speculating about numbers. Speculation does not equal truth.

If I interpret the numbers as the Q not developing players from quebec properly and you interpret these numbers as a sign of discrimination without any other factor but these numbers then we are both wrong.

These numbers are showing that there is something clearly occuring with francophone players? What is it? Well there can be many different answers for this. We can say it's a cause of discrimination, improper development, speaking french makes you worse at hockey than if you spoke another language, the only francophone players that make the nhl are those of higher skill because the Q doesn't develop bottom line players therefore dropping the average number of Quebecers making the nhl. The Q is bad at developing d-men and the fact that almost 0 d-men are drafted brings the average of Quebcers drafted and making the nhl much lower.


Actually, what I would like to see if the following stat. What % of francophone players make the nhl as a forward, relative to other provinces, What % of francophone players make the nhl as d-men and what % make it as goalie, all relative to the % against other provinces and see what happens.

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Old
10-20-2009, 05:00 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by Moobles View Post
In the past like 6 pages the bulk of what's been said here is just emotional.
"The statistics can't be right QUEBECERS AREN'T DISCRIMINATED" "LOOK at french players in the league ANGLOS LOVE YOU" "sirois only did this for $$$!!!!" blah blah.



Look we know that. Sirois isn't however manipulated complicated facts or fabricating relationships with data, his conclusion certainly is not supported by the relationship he looked at and he doesn't even bother to consider more then a few alternate explanations, but it seems to be true that French-Canadians get drafted less from the Q then English-Canadians do.

I think that's significant and it's something worth looking more into. The relationship is there. Whether you want to deny it and rant on about Quebec's history or try and rationalize language-controversies in Quebec that's all irrelevant, the fact is Anglophones are getting drafted more over Francophones from the Q. That actually asks an interesting question: why?

It's certainly possible discrimination is a factor. It seems like a poor explanation to me however given the need for NHL talent regardless of where it come from, and while it's probably in the minds of some execs it seems really far-fetched to blame it all on controversy. I'd be interested in francophone player development, their access to Canada-wide clinics, participation in international tournaments and where this differs from anglo player development. Do they play on the same teams? Are certain teams in the Q not producing the same amount of talent as other teams in the Q? etc.
I agree, there is something wrong, but there is no definate answer to these statistics. Much more research must go into these numbers and they must be extended further than just x amount of what type of people are making the nhl compared to another. He has to expand his data, to each position, each team in the Q, on height, weight, points.

There are also factors you cannot quanitify like aggresiveness of a player, commitment, leadership, hard work etc.

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Old
10-20-2009, 05:05 PM
  #188
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I have a few problems here.

At the same time you are talking about integrity, you admit that you are attacking the messenger before having read the book.
In the same breath, you admit that you are attacking him because of the media not because of his message.

No offense intended. I am just reading your text.

He is not the first to have specific fact and statistics to prove there is a discrimination against French-Canadians.
So he is certainly not "the one".

And you seem to have an insight into his motivation for writting this book before having read the book.

As you wrote: integrity. Look at the highlighted verb you are using.

Maybe you are very emotional with this.

Go read the book, I am sure you will come back with intelligent arguments.
After all, you are studying in Journalism.
You stay classy.

I wrote what I wrote fast, without proof-reading. Maybe my choice of words wasn't the best. Still, I stand by what I said. I said I was ''attacking the messenger'' because that's the way the other poster described what I said. I was merely answering his claims.

You can twist what I said as much as you want anyway. I said I was attacking him because of the media and not because of his message? I said that the message the author carries is the same the media have been supporting for years. I have seen Sirois in various interviews. While I haven't read his book, I think I'm fairly able to understand what it's gonna be about and the type of information we'll find in it. I heard the guy talk about what's in the book and what's his rationale behind it. We already know the main stats behind the book as Sirois mentioned them in various interviews. So I do have an insight before reading the book.

But yeah, keep taking what I said out of context. Highlight random words in my post if it makes you think your argumentative process will come out in a better way. Because thinking things, sensing things doesn't put my integrity at cause, whatever you believe.

If you can't realize the guy is playing the opportunistic card and riding on the media's coattails, I can't do anything for you.

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10-20-2009, 05:14 PM
  #189
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Originally Posted by Koseegin View Post
What is "some" truth? If it's "some" truth, then it's not truth at all. It's speculating about numbers. Speculation does not equal truth.

If I interpret the numbers as the Q not developing players from quebec properly and you interpret these numbers as a sign of discrimination without any other factor but these numbers then we are both wrong.

These numbers are showing that there is something clearly occuring with francophone players? What is it? Well there can be many different answers for this. We can say it's a cause of discrimination, improper development, speaking french makes you worse at hockey than if you spoke another language, the only francophone players that make the nhl are those of higher skill because the Q doesn't develop bottom line players therefore dropping the average number of Quebecers making the nhl. The Q is bad at developing d-men and the fact that almost 0 d-men are drafted brings the average of Quebcers drafted and making the nhl much lower.


Actually, what I would like to see if the following stat. What % of francophone players make the nhl as a forward, relative to other provinces, What % of francophone players make the nhl as d-men and what % make it as goalie, all relative to the % against other provinces and see what happens.
Its not because you read a garbage book that ALL of it is pure crap ... just like watching movies made by michael more or reading the bible ... there is a lot of ******** in all of those... but to say there is nothing good .... is quite wrong in my opinion.

the irony is you , spending time here talking about it contributing to a brainstorm the author probably wanted while writting his book ... the fact that there might be ''some'' truth ...facts ... (without knowing if the cause is really discrimination) in this book makes it worth talking about it...no matter what conclusions we make ...

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10-20-2009, 05:34 PM
  #190
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I think we, the people in quebec, need to realize that we are only a 7 millions populated province in a 33 millions country. that makes us roughly 20% of Canada. Now add USA, Russia, Finland, Tsech Republic and Sweden who produces a high number of players. Also add to that all lesser represented countries in the NHL and I would say 6.3% is a pretty reasonable number. Our idiots here want us to believe we are the Kings of hockey, yet our hockey system is pretty ****** for develloping young kids and since the coming of Europeans in the NHL, I think we're not the only province who saw their numbers slide down.

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10-20-2009, 05:35 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by THE HOFF View Post
Its not because you read a garbage book that ALL of it is pure crap ... just like watching movies made by michael more or reading the bible ... there is a lot of ******** in all of those... but to say there is nothing good .... is quite wrong in my opinion.

the irony is you , spending time here talking about it contributing to a brainstorm the author probably wanted while writting his book ... the fact that there might be ''some'' truth ...facts ... (without knowing if the cause is really discrimination) in this book makes it worth talking about it...no matter what conclusions we make ...
The only facts offered in this book is that the % of francophone players making the nhl are low. This is the only fact. How you choose to explain this fact is assumptions.

Assumptions does not equal fact. Even if it's a plausible explanation, it does not imply fact.

Maybe you should ask youself, why out of all the possible ways to explain the statistics he provided, did he choose to write a book on discrimination? Why not write a book about all the possible explanations, all of which can be plausible.

There is one reason why he chose the angle he did.

1. He chose the most controversial one. Controvery = money. Look at any conspiracy theorists and how they are rolling in dough.

You want discrimination? Ask the majority of posters here what they think about Russian players. Despite that 3 of the top 5 players in the league are Russian. Malkin, Datsyuk and Ovechkin. That's discrimination. Ask Benny Brunet why he hates Andrei Kostitsyn, even in the year everyone loved and was working hard. Ask him why he hates him.

If francophones are going to complain about discrimination, they should only be allowed to do so after Russians begin to complain about theirs.

And maybe you should go on rds on listen to what Joel Bouchard had to say about the subject.

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10-20-2009, 05:40 PM
  #192
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This conspiracy theory wouldn't hold up if another Mario Lemieux came along. He'd be the guaranteed first overall pick.

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10-20-2009, 05:43 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by Koseegin View Post
The only facts offered in this book is that the % of francophone players making the nhl are low. This is the only fact. How you choose to explain this fact is assumptions.

Assumptions does not equal fact. Even if it's a plausible explanation, it does not imply fact.

Maybe you should ask youself, why out of all the possible ways to explain the statistics he provided, did he choose to write a book on discrimination? Why not write a book about all the possible explanations, all of which can be plausible.

There is one reason why he chose the angle he did.

1. He chose the most controversial one. Controvery = money. Look at any conspiracy theorists and how they are rolling in dough.

You want discrimination? Ask the majority of posters here what they think about Russian players. Despite that 3 of the top 5 players in the league are Russian. Malkin, Datsyuk and Ovechkin. That's discrimination. Ask Benny Brunet why he hates Andrei Kostitsyn, even in the year everyone loved and was working hard. Ask him why he hates him.

If francophones are going to complain about discrimination, they should only be allowed to do so after Russians begin to complain about theirs.

And maybe you should go on rds on listen to what Joel Bouchard had to say about the subject.

I'm not going to get in the debate.. but What did he say? Im so fed up of RDS on this topic, it seems that everyone agrees with the guy so Id really like to hear Bouchards POV since I usually can tolerate him.

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10-20-2009, 05:47 PM
  #194
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Originally Posted by 3rdMangHigh View Post
bruins fan, here in peace, just wondering where all the discriminated french all stars are playing, we could use a couple
Lol !

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10-20-2009, 05:49 PM
  #195
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[/B]
I'm not going to get in the debate.. but What did he say? Im so fed up of RDS on this topic, it seems that everyone agrees with the guy so Id really like to hear Bouchards POV since I usually can tolerate him.
He said that he cannot believe that a gm would pick an anglo over a franco because he is biased. He said a gms job is to win. He said if this phenomenon is happening that maybe they themselves are to blame. He said you cannot only look at one side of the argument.

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10-20-2009, 06:01 PM
  #196
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God damnit they are really running this story constantly today on RDS and other french media. There is no way I can express how much this pisses me off.

I got a great idea! I'll write a book about how we are biased against italiens in the NHL! Or polish people! Or brazilians!

Why the **** is this even news? Some guy is pissed off that a PROVINCE only gets dozens of players drafted every year? And it sells? ****ing genius.

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10-20-2009, 06:04 PM
  #197
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God damnit they are really running this story constantly today on RDS and other french media. There is no way I can express how much this pisses me off.

I got a great idea! I'll write a book about how we are biased against italiens in the NHL! Or polish people! Or brazilians!

Why the **** is this even news? Some guy is pissed off that a PROVINCE only gets dozens of players drafted every year? And it sells? ****ing genius.
I think Russians need to write a book about this to be honest.

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10-20-2009, 06:04 PM
  #198
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J'ai honte d'etre quebecois quand ya du monde comme sa qui nous font passer encore une fois pour des victimes!

Seriously.... im ashamed when i see ****** bags like this guy crying about stuff like this... god damn it! lets stop being the victims. if we have less Quebecers in the league its cause we are less good. FINAL!

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10-20-2009, 06:04 PM
  #199
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Originally Posted by mlandry View Post
God damnit they are really running this story constantly today on RDS and other french media. There is no way I can express how much this pisses me off.

I got a great idea! I'll write a book about how we are biased against italiens in the NHL! Or polish people! Or brazilians!

Why the **** is this even news? Some guy is pissed off that a PROVINCE only gets dozens of players drafted every year? And it sells? ****ing genius.
Lets write a book together about how the hfboards hates french people because they don't allow them to post in french while not taking into account that they don't let anyone else post in any other language but english. I'm sure it will sell!!

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10-20-2009, 06:06 PM
  #200
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J'ai honte d'etre quebecois quand ya du monde comme sa qui nous font passer encore une fois pour des victimes!

Seriously.... im ashamed when i see ****** bags like this guy crying about stuff like this... god damn it! lets stop being the victims. if we have less Quebecers in the league its cause we are less good. FINAL!
I feel sorry for you as well because the majority of french people in this province, 99% of them that I know or have met or have served while working is nothing like this. They are polite and accomadating, but you always get that 1% who act like pigs which makes everyone else change their perceptions of french people.

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