HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

HOH Top 70 Players of All Time (2009)

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
08-25-2009, 04:41 PM
  #51
seventieslord
Moderator
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,878
vCash: 500
Brodeur was ranked too highly last time and I think us compensating for his overratedness outweighed his last Vezina.

I definitely took what you said about Brodeur to heart, TDMM. But when I look at everything from a wide variety of statistical angles (AND consider the puckhandling x-factor) I see a great, not quite top-6, goalie who benefitted from TONS of team-dependent factors.

Take solace in the fact that the majority of the voters did not agree with me that Dryden was better and that he was virtually even with Tretiak.

My honest prediction is that whenever this is revisited, he will drop further, even if he pads his career with 1-2 more decent seasons. Tony Esposito + cups is a good comparison.

seventieslord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-25-2009, 05:59 PM
  #52
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Connecticut
Country: United States
Posts: 7,743
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirtless Joe View Post
Changes since last year at 21st to 40th:

Top 100 Hockey Players, 21-40
RankNo.PlayerPosHeightWeightCareerPrev Rank
2116Bobby ClarkeC5'10"1761969-1984 22 (+1)
2211Mark MessierC6'1"2051978-2004 24 (+2)
2368Jaromir JagrRW6'2"2401990-Present 25 (+2)
241Terry SawchukG5'11"1901949-1970 19 (-5)
251Glenn HallG5'11"1901952-53;1954-1971 21 (-4)
2619Bryan TrottierC5'11"1951975-1994 28 (+2)
274Fred "Cyclone" TaylorR/D5'8"1651905-1923 41 (+14)
284Edouard "Newsy" LalondeC5'9"1681904-1927;1928 29 (+1)
2922Mike BossyRW6'0"1851977-1987 27 (-1)
307Ted LindsayLW5'8"1631944-1965 23 (-7)
3119Larry RobinsonD6'3"2201972-1992 32 (+1)
3219Joe SakicC5'11"1851988-2009 33 (+1)
332Viacheslav FetisovD6'1"2151974-1975;1976-1998 35 (+2)
3415Milt SchmidtC6"0"1851936-1942;1945-1955 31 (-3)
3517Valeri KharlamovLW5'8"1651967-1981 30 (-5)
3619Steve YzermanC5'11"1851983-2006 36 (E)
3730Martin BrodeurG6'1"2051991-1992;1993-Present 34 (-3)
3810Syl Apps, Sr.C6'0"1851936-1948 38 (E)
3929Ken DrydenG6'4"2071970-1979 37 (-2)
405Bill CookRW5'10"1721922-1937 43 (+3)
The 2 guys I thought should have been higher than last time were Lafleur and Bossy.
With my support they both did worse. I also liked Potvin over Lidstrom but that didn't work out either.

Dennis Bonvie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-25-2009, 06:19 PM
  #53
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Connecticut
Country: United States
Posts: 7,743
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Brodeur was ranked too highly last time and I think us compensating for his overratedness outweighed his last Vezina.

I definitely took what you said about Brodeur to heart, TDMM. But when I look at everything from a wide variety of statistical angles (AND consider the puckhandling x-factor) I see a great, not quite top-6, goalie who benefitted from TONS of team-dependent factors.

Take solace in the fact that the majority of the voters did not agree with me that Dryden was better and that he was virtually even with Tretiak.

My honest prediction is that whenever this is revisited, he will drop further, even if he pads his career with 1-2 more decent seasons. Tony Esposito + cups is a good comparison.
I agree. I had Dryden higher also.

I feel that the Devils were so good defensively that for many years it was really difficult to tell how good Brodeur was. His first two Vezina years his backups had significantly better goals against and save percentages. Both seasons Brodeur was fourth in goals against but not in the top 10 in save percentage in the league. Dryden always said playing behind the great Canadien's teams kept him from maintaining a high level of performance. Perhaps if Brodeur played on a different team he may have had less records but would be ranked higher here. Or perhaps not.

Dennis Bonvie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-25-2009, 08:00 PM
  #54
seventieslord
Moderator
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,878
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
I agree. I had Dryden higher also.

I feel that the Devils were so good defensively that for many years it was really difficult to tell how good Brodeur was. His first two Vezina years his backups had significantly better goals against and save percentages. Both seasons Brodeur was fourth in goals against but not in the top 10 in save percentage in the league. Dryden always said playing behind the great Canadien's teams kept him from maintaining a high level of performance. Perhaps if Brodeur played on a different team he may have had less records but would be ranked higher here. Or perhaps not.
The thing about Dryden, too, is that he had a dominant regular season and playoff sv%, and Brodeur didn't always.

Dryden's playoff sv% rankings: 1, 1, 1, 3, 3, 5, 5, 5. (in his 8 qualifying playoffs - the only 8 he played in)
regular season: 1, 1, 1, 2, 5 (in the five seasons we know of: 75, 76, 77, 78, 79)

Brodeur's playoff sv% rankings: 1, 2, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8. (in his 8 qualifying playoffs)
regular season: 3, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8. (from 15 qualifying seasons)


*playoff rankings are among the 8 goalies with most playoff minutes that season.

* regular season rankings are among goalies with at least 25 GP.


Last edited by seventieslord: 08-25-2009 at 08:11 PM.
seventieslord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-27-2009, 08:06 AM
  #55
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 38,729
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Brodeur was ranked too highly last time and I think us compensating for his overratedness outweighed his last Vezina.

I definitely took what you said about Brodeur to heart, TDMM. But when I look at everything from a wide variety of statistical angles (AND consider the puckhandling x-factor) I see a great, not quite top-6, goalie who benefitted from TONS of team-dependent factors.

Take solace in the fact that the majority of the voters did not agree with me that Dryden was better and that he was virtually even with Tretiak.

My honest prediction is that whenever this is revisited, he will drop further, even if he pads his career with 1-2 more decent seasons. Tony Esposito + cups is a good comparison.
I had Brodeur, Dryden, and Tretiak all higher than they ended up/will end up. I don't agree with discrediting goalies for playing behind great defenses, especially since O6 goalies are somehow immune from this argument. Part of what makes a defensive unit so cohesive is confidence in the goaltender.

Frankly, I think a better comparison for Brodeur is Glenn Hall + more cups. Reliability, durability, longevity, consistency, lack of a dominant peak compared to some contemporaries.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
08-27-2009, 08:21 AM
  #56
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 38,729
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirtless Joe View Post
Changes since last year at 21st to 40th:

Top 100 Hockey Players, 21-40
RankNo.PlayerPosHeightWeightCareerPrev Rank
2116Bobby ClarkeC5'10"1761969-1984 22 (+1)
2211Mark MessierC6'1"2051978-2004 24 (+2)
2368Jaromir JagrRW6'2"2401990-Present 25 (+2)
241Terry SawchukG5'11"1901949-1970 19 (-5)
251Glenn HallG5'11"1901952-53;1954-1971 21 (-4)
2619Bryan TrottierC5'11"1951975-1994 28 (+2)
274Fred "Cyclone" TaylorR/D5'8"1651905-1923 41 (+14)
284Edouard "Newsy" LalondeC5'9"1681904-1927;1928 29 (+1)
2922Mike BossyRW6'0"1851977-1987 27 (-1)
307Ted LindsayLW5'8"1631944-1965 23 (-7)
3119Larry RobinsonD6'3"2201972-1992 32 (+1)
3219Joe SakicC5'11"1851988-2009 33 (+1)
332Viacheslav FetisovD6'1"2151974-1975;1976-1998 35 (+2)
3415Milt SchmidtC6"0"1851936-1942;1945-1955 31 (-3)
3517Valeri KharlamovLW5'8"1651967-1981 30 (-5)
3619Steve YzermanC5'11"1851983-2006 36 (E)
3730Martin BrodeurG6'1"2051991-1992;1993-Present 34 (-3)
3810Syl Apps, Sr.C6'0"1851936-1948 38 (E)
3929Ken DrydenG6'4"2071970-1979 37 (-2)
405Bill CookRW5'10"1721922-1937 43 (+3)

Biggest movers:

Cylcone Taylor (+14)
Voters clearly felt he was underrated last time, in large part due to initial unfamiliarity with him during the submission of initial lists last year.

Ted Lindsay (-7)
There was discussion this time that Howe and Kelly were the real keys to the 50s Red Wings, and this most likely hurt Lindsay. Lindsay was also perhaps hurt by the new voting method of ranking all the players available, rather than just the ones the voter want added each round (a system that hurts controversial selections compared to last time).

Valeri Kharlamov (-5)
Voters wondered why he was ranked so much higher than guys like Fetisov and Makarov. Also, probably hurt by the new voting method.

Terry Sawchuk (-5)
Like Lindsay, there was dicussion that Howe and Kelly were keys to the 50s Red Wings. Also, see Hall.

Glenn Hall (-4)
Voters may have wanted to increase the seperation between Hasek/Plante/Roy and Sawchuk/Hall, or decrease the seperation between Sawchuk/Hall and Brodeur/Dryden.

Martin Brodeur (-3)
Already discussed upthread. Controversial players are hurt by the new voting system compared to last time. This likely also affected Dryden among goalies (-2).

Milt Schmidt (-3)
Just a small correction? I'm not sure about this one. Voters may have wanted him closer to Apps and behind Sakic.

Bill Cook (+3)
There might be a general trend of raising pre-WW2 players a bit from last time.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
08-27-2009, 10:32 AM
  #57
seventieslord
Moderator
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,878
vCash: 500
A 3-spot rise for Cook doesn't satisfy me. He should not be 25+ spots behind Howie Morenz.

seventieslord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-27-2009, 06:56 PM
  #58
FissionFire
Registered User
 
FissionFire's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Portland, OR
Country: United States
Posts: 10,687
vCash: 500
One thing to realize with Brodeur is that his dropping seems to be a product of the overall value goalies have been given this time around. Aside from Hasek and Roy, every single goalie so far has dropped at least 2 spots.

FissionFire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-05-2009, 02:04 PM
  #59
JFA87-66-99
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: USA
Country: United States
Posts: 2,312
vCash: 500
What if Kharlamov would have played in the NHL? What kinda stats would he have had. I read somewhere that he was arguably as talented as Lemieux or Gretzky.

JFA87-66-99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-11-2009, 01:10 AM
  #60
Howe Elbows 9
Registered User
 
Howe Elbows 9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Gävle, Sweden
Posts: 2,527
vCash: 690
Changes since last year at 41st to 60th:

Top 100 Hockey Players, 41-60
RankNo.PlayerPosHeightWeightCareerPrev Rank
4124Chris CheliosD6'1"1901983-Present42 (+1)
4222Brad ParkD6'0"1901968-198540 (-2)
435Bernard GeoffrionRW5'9"1701950-1964;1966-196839 (-4)
4420Vladislav TretiakG6'1"2021968-198452 (+8)
457/4/11Joe MaloneC5'10"1501910-192450 (+5)
467Paul CoffeyD6'0"2001980-2001T-46 (E)
479Charlie ConacherRW6'0"2101929-194145 (-2)
487/17Frank BoucherC5'9"1851921-1922;1926-1938;1943-194459 (+11)
4927Frank MahovlichLW6'1"2051956-197849 (E)
5016Marcel DionneC5'8"1851971-198948 (-2)
517Francis "King" ClancyD5'7"1551921-1937T-53 (+2)
523Pierre PiloteD5'10"1781955-196951 (-1)
531Clint BenedictG5'11"1851912-193062 (+9)
541Bill DurnanG6'0"1901943-195044 (-10)
5516Henri RichardC5'7"1601955-197557 (+2)
569Andy BathgateRW6'0"1801952-1968;1970-197156 (E)
5722Max BentleyC5'9"1581940-1943;1945-1954T-46 (-11)
585Aubrey "Dit" ClapperRW/D6'2"1951927-1947T-53 (-5)
591Walter "Turk" BrodaG5'9"1801936-1943;1945-195260 (+1)
6017Earl SeibertD6'2"1981931-194661 (+1)

Biggest movers:
Frank Boucher +11
Clint Benedict +9
Vladislav Tretiak +8

Max Bentley -11
Bill Durnan -10

Howe Elbows 9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-11-2009, 12:48 PM
  #61
seventieslord
Moderator
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,878
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JFA87-66-99 View Post
What if Kharlamov would have played in the NHL? What kinda stats would he have had. I read somewhere that he was arguably as talented as Lemieux or Gretzky.
Hard to say. He didn't really have better stats domestically or internationally, than his linemates. One of them will end up being voted in around 75th and another will likely not be voted on. Still, he was supposed to be so much better than them.

seventieslord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-11-2009, 12:49 PM
  #62
seventieslord
Moderator
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,878
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirtless Joe View Post

Biggest movers:
Frank Boucher +11
Clint Benedict +9
Vladislav Tretiak +8

Max Bentley -11
Bill Durnan -10
Wow, a very satisfying 40-60, with the previously overrated Bentley & Durnan moving down, and the previously underrated Boucher, Benedict, and Tretiak moving up!

seventieslord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-11-2009, 06:54 PM
  #63
pappyline
Registered User
 
pappyline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Mass/formerly Ont
Country: United States
Posts: 4,152
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirtless Joe View Post
Biggest movers:
Frank Boucher +11
Clint Benedict +9
Vladislav Tretiak +8

Max Bentley -11
Bill Durnan -10
Disappointing to me. The only one I agree with is Durnan. Starting to think we did a better job first time.

pappyline is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-11-2009, 07:25 PM
  #64
Kyle McMahon
Registered User
 
Kyle McMahon's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Ghana Bandwagon
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,495
vCash: 500
Definitely glad to see Benedict and Boucher move up. Surprised Bentley fell so far. I've been convinced that I underrated Henri Richard (probably had him around 75th on my original list), but I defintely wouldn't have him (or Bathgate) ahead of Max.

Kyle McMahon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-16-2009, 02:37 AM
  #65
jarek
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 4,550
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JFA87-66-99 View Post
What if Kharlamov would have played in the NHL? What kinda stats would he have had. I read somewhere that he was arguably as talented as Lemieux or Gretzky.
They said the same thing about Makarov.

jarek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-10-2009, 01:13 AM
  #66
McNuts
Registered User
 
McNuts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,825
vCash: 500
Personally I think that Mike Bossy is strongly underrated in this list. He has the highest goal per game ratio of all time and no other player ever scored as much 50-goal seasons (9), which he did in 10 seasons.

Call me crazy, but I would have placed him about 5th forward of all time, and at the very least I think he should have been placed just above Lafleur in the 15-20 range.

McNuts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-10-2009, 01:46 AM
  #67
seventieslord
Moderator
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,878
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by McNuts View Post
Personally I think that Mike Bossy is strongly underrated in this list. He has the highest goal per game ratio of all time and no other player ever scored as much 50-goal seasons (9), which he did in 10 seasons.

Call me crazy, but I would have placed him about 5th forward of all time, and at the very least I think he should have been placed just above Lafleur in the 15-20 range.
If Bossy played 5 more years he would have seen his goals per game average decline significantly. Would this make him a worse player?

You are free to present your arguments for why he's better than guys like Mikita, Morenz, Beliveau, Richard, and Clarke. I personally don't see it.

seventieslord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-15-2009, 09:39 AM
  #68
Johnny Engine
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,310
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Outside99 View Post
Until Valeri Kharlamov is in the top 5, the list lacks credibility. He is considered the greatest russian player who ever lived so if he's going to be on this list, he has to be top 5. Keep in mind, Canada could not stop this guy during the 1972 super series until bobby clarke "intervened". PS - i'm not russian.
Obviously I'm late for this mini-flamefest, but here's a top-10 list that this guy might like:

1. Wayne Gretzky
2. Dominik Hasek
3. Niklas Lidstrom
4. Valeri Kharlamov
5. Chris Chelios
6. Teemu Sellanne
7. Zdeno Chara
8. Ken Hodge
9. Arturs Irbe
10. Erich Khunhackl

After all, what list would be complete without the greatest Latvian ever (put down the broken bottle Sandis, you're still #2) in the top 10?

Johnny Engine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-15-2009, 09:52 AM
  #69
tommygunn
Registered User
 
tommygunn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 532
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Engine View Post
Obviously I'm late for this mini-flamefest, but here's a top-10 list that this guy might like:

1. Wayne Gretzky
2. Dominik Hasek
3. Niklas Lidstrom
4. Valeri Kharlamov
5. Chris Chelios
6. Teemu Sellanne
7. Zdeno Chara
8. Ken Hodge
9. Arturs Irbe
10. Erich Khunhackl

After all, what list would be complete without the greatest Latvian ever (put down the broken bottle Sandis, you're still #2) in the top 10?
I don't see Balderis in the list..

tommygunn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-15-2009, 12:52 PM
  #70
Johnny Engine
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,310
vCash: 500
Good call. I always forget that some of those Soviet guys weren't Russian.

Johnny Engine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-16-2009, 03:34 AM
  #71
VMBM
Registered User
 
VMBM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,627
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Engine View Post
Obviously I'm late for this mini-flamefest, but here's a top-10 list that this guy might like:

1. Wayne Gretzky
2. Dominik Hasek
3. Niklas Lidstrom
4. Valeri Kharlamov
5. Chris Chelios
6. Teemu Sellanne
7. Zdeno Chara
8. Ken Hodge
9. Arturs Irbe
10. Erich Khunhackl

After all, what list would be complete without the greatest Latvian ever (put down the broken bottle Sandis, you're still #2) in the top 10?
Selänne over Kurri?

Anyway, I think for instance the 1976 Canada Cup all-star selections followed this, er, mindset (guys like Maltsev and especially Salming were no doubt far and away the best players on their team [and Milan Novy played very well too], but no room for Gilbert Perreault and/or Denis Potvin? C'mon.)

VMBM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-16-2009, 04:00 AM
  #72
Ohashi_Jouzu
Registered User
 
Ohashi_Jouzu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Halifax
Country: Japan
Posts: 21,630
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jareklajkosz View Post
They said the same thing about Makarov.
They never said he was as good as Gretzky... but anyway, he has the 3rd highest career shooting percentage (among players with 100+ NHL goals) all time, and he didn't even come here until he was 31. He scored 8 playoff goals on 26 shots as a 35 year old. He certainly could have had sick NHL stats if he played over here from age 19.

Ohashi_Jouzu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-19-2009, 10:35 PM
  #73
seventieslord
Moderator
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,878
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
They never said he was as good as Gretzky... but anyway, he has the 3rd highest career shooting percentage (among players with 100+ NHL goals) all time, and he didn't even come here until he was 31. He scored 8 playoff goals on 26 shots as a 35 year old. He certainly could have had sick NHL stats if he played over here from age 19.
You may have misunderstood jarek. he's a BIG Makarov supporter.

seventieslord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-19-2009, 10:47 PM
  #74
Ohashi_Jouzu
Registered User
 
Ohashi_Jouzu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Halifax
Country: Japan
Posts: 21,630
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
You may have misunderstood jarek. he's a BIG Makarov supporter.
Indeed. And indeed.

Ohashi_Jouzu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-21-2009, 02:06 AM
  #75
Outside99*
Sedins off Kas
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,347
vCash: 796
Kharlamov at #35 shows that the system to generate the top 100 has issues with respect to assigning rank to foreign players. Isn't he considered the best Russian hockey player of all time?

He certainly was the best player on the ice from both teams in the '72 Super Series.

Outside99* is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:55 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.