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HNIC could start dropping Leafs games if they continue to lose

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Old
10-24-2009, 12:05 PM
  #76
coolasprICE
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Newfie John View Post
What are you even talking about? Are you telling me when someone turns on the TV, the deciding factor in whether they watch the game or not is how loud the building is?

You're just making things up.

I see no incentive for change.
YES I am... it's called STAGE, and in any form of entertainment, that is big.

What do most ppl talk about when watching a NFL game vs CFL.

One looks like a professional league with 60 thousand screaming fans, the other is a whistle blowing crowd of 20.

Atmosphere is huge

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10-24-2009, 12:11 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
I said "sold out arenas", yes Toronto is the most boring.

Ok, there is no refute you can make for the ACC in this respect unless you're in denial about the crowd energy.

Anyways, lets have a look.

Original six teams:

Toronto, Montreal, Boston, Chicago, Detroit, NY Rangers

OK - they all "more or less" sell out every game - Toronto is by far the most boring crowd.

Lets look at other Canadian teams:

Edmonton, Calgary, Ottawa, Vancouver

Sorry, Toronto loses again.

Other notable mentions, Washington, Minnesota, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh...

Obviously having a good team helps, in the case of the Caps for example... but I really don't think that the ACC can ever evolve into what they have in Washington right now... of course that's my opinion basing it on over 20 years of following hockey.
Where are your seats in the ACC? Where have you sat in all the other buildings?

I think you're proving you really have no idea what you're on about.

I know myself, I don't need to scream OLE to watch a hockey game, I can just watch.

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10-24-2009, 12:28 PM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
YES I am... it's called STAGE, and in any form of entertainment, that is big.

What do most ppl talk about when watching a NFL game vs CFL.

One looks like a professional league with 60 thousand screaming fans, the other is a whistle blowing crowd of 20.

Atmosphere is huge
Certainly hasn't hurt the Leafs or their ratings on TV or internet streams.

Your argument isn't making much sense, you place way too much emphasis on "atmosphere". It might matter in selling tickets (which isn't a problem in TO), but not in telecasts, unless in extreme circumstances.

You also underestimate the atmosphere in Toronto. Like I said, did you hear the loud boos the other night? Or, are you just basing your argument on stereotype?

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10-24-2009, 12:30 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
We're comparing crowds that sell-out.

Whether the product on the ice is stellar or not does not change the fact that every seat has a bum farting on it.

If the product sucks, than high involvement crowds will react in ways to get the team motivated ( Go Leafs Go) or by showing displeasure and emotion.

Just sitting there like lame ducks is Toronto.
One word: ********.

The Leaf crowds during the playoff years were as loud as any.







And the Leafs have been regularly booed for the last two years.

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10-24-2009, 12:41 PM
  #80
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If being dropped Nationally means we get Bob Cole back, I'm all for it.

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10-24-2009, 01:53 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by ACC1224 View Post
If being dropped Nationally means we get Bob Cole back, I'm all for it.
Really? He's lost it. I like his voice, don't get me wrong. But I can't handle the numerous missed calls and wrong names anymore.

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10-24-2009, 03:03 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by ACC1224 View Post
Where are your seats in the ACC? Where have you sat in all the other buildings?

I think you're proving you really have no idea what you're on about.

I know myself, I don't need to scream OLE to watch a hockey game, I can just watch.
I've been to 7 rinks, and all of them are pretty much as advertised on TV. The differences rest mainly in that what you go in expecting is in fact more intense in reality. So for example, watching a game in Montreal is actually better than as advertised. Watching a game in Florida is actually worse than as advertised.

Why do you assume that a tv viewer can not appreciate nor decipher the atmosphere quality of one arena from another? Broadcast quality has come a long way in the last 20 years mate.

I think you are trying to create a simple cop-out; drop your defensive mechanisms and realize that crowd energy, emotion, involvement, loudness or whatever, does make for more entertaining TV.

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10-24-2009, 03:09 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Newfie John View Post
Certainly hasn't hurt the Leafs or their ratings on TV or internet streams.

Your argument isn't making much sense, you place way too much emphasis on "atmosphere". It might matter in selling tickets (which isn't a problem in TO), but not in telecasts, unless in extreme circumstances.

You also underestimate the atmosphere in Toronto. Like I said, did you hear the loud boos the other night? Or, are you just basing your argument on stereotype?
First of all, ratings for hockey has gone up for every team in Canada. Now, take Manitoba as an example. What makes you think that the majority of the hockey market that watches a leafs game is in fact a leafs fan? Perhaps he's just a hockey fan. Ahh.. give him a Habs game, and he'll watch it just the same. This market appreciates atmosphere, just as much as a quality match-up with superstars. Listening to a crowd that's chanting, or over reacting for every non-call, a crowd thats essentially involved, does increase the excitement level. And that's the type of thing that can make new followers too.

As for the streams, can you tell me where they are coming from? China? Australia? Does not mean that it's coming from Canada.

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10-24-2009, 03:12 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeo1 View Post
One word: ********.

The Leaf crowds during the playoff years were as loud as any.







And the Leafs have been regularly booed for the last two years.
We're talking about Saturday night games, not youtubes with the word "Memorable" as a title.

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10-24-2009, 03:23 PM
  #85
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More Colesheimers?

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Originally Posted by ACC1224 View Post
If being dropped Nationally means we get Bob Cole back, I'm all for it.
Are you serious?

"aaaaand the referee calls a penalty....no wait a minute, Mats Naslund scored...no, it was Tucker...no, actually it was offside...."

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10-24-2009, 03:26 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Volcanologist View Post
Are you serious?

"aaaaand the referee calls a penalty....no wait a minute, Mats Naslund scored...no, it was Tucker...no, actually it was offside...."
Haha.

Pretty much.

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10-24-2009, 03:33 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Volcanologist View Post
Are you serious?

"aaaaand the referee calls a penalty....no wait a minute, Mats Naslund scored...no, it was Tucker...no, actually it was offside...."
LOL

Hate to admit it, but it's kind true.

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Old
10-24-2009, 03:33 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by xtr3m View Post
Toronto fans: imagine some other Canadian team in the west is Canada's biggest market (debatable, but doesn't matter). Imagine that the team has always been on prime time TV. Imagine it's not doing so well right now. Imagine you could care less what's going on in the west. Imagine how you would feel.
I would expect the television network to broadcast whichever team gets them the highest ratings. What I feel is immaterial. If the ratings drop enough, the change will be made no matter where the team is based.

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10-24-2009, 03:34 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
We're talking about Saturday night games, not youtubes with the word "Memorable" as a title.
I tried searching for "forgettable moments" but didn't get as many results.

The point is that the Leafs had some of the loudest crowds in the league when they were competitive. Even during the first two post-lockout years, the crowds were loud. What exactly do you expect the fans to cheer for on this current Leafs team?

Teams that play poorly for extended periods tend to have quiet crowds. Just look at the Canadiens during the late 90s and early part of this decade.

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10-24-2009, 03:38 PM
  #90
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I am sick to death about hearing about our "quiet" crowd, I gotta say.

CBC wants to losing some rating points, they can go ahead and drop the Leafs, whatever. I'll never miss a game anyhow, and most big fans out of the local viewing area are likely going to have Centre Ice anyhow for all the weekday days, so meh, go for it.

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10-24-2009, 03:41 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Squiffy View Post
I am sick to death about hearing about our "quiet" crowd, I gotta say.

CBC wants to losing some rating points, they can go ahead and drop the Leafs, whatever. I'll never miss a game anyhow, and most big fans out of the local viewing area are likely going to have Centre Ice anyhow for all the weekday days, so meh, go for it.
That's true. I always have CI.

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10-24-2009, 04:06 PM
  #92
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That's true. I always have CI.
atdhe.net is my best friend during the week. girlfriends in school, we dont have the luxury of cable, so it's the logical solution.

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Old
10-24-2009, 04:27 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Squiffy View Post
I am sick to death about hearing about our "quiet" crowd, I gotta say.
Frankly I could care less if somebody thinks the Leaf crowds are quiet. It is ironic however to hear it from Western Canada where their stadiums can sound like a funeral service during a listless mid-season game. I'd never question their commitment to being hockey fans just because they sit quietly waiting for something to cheer instead of blowing a week's wages on beer in order to get loud at a hockey game.

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10-24-2009, 04:30 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by mikeo1 View Post
What exactly do you expect the fans to cheer for on this current Leafs team?

Teams that play poorly for extended periods tend to have quiet crowds. Just look at the Canadiens during the late 90s and early part of this decade.
Well they did boo the Leafs off the ice last game which is a nice thing imo. But a Montreal crowd would have turned on the team way before, perhaps even taunting their own players beyond reason, cheer mockingly for every easy save etc... Lets face it, they can be the most disrespectful obnoxious fans, be it against their own team or with their Ole Ole when there is no score in the 1st. Love it or hate it, it's better entertainment than ____ (silence). Winning or losing has less influence than you make, atmosphere is a cultural thing...

As for the ticket price factor, this I'm sure applies more so in lower bowl - I don't think their are many men in suits watching in the nose bleeds.

BTW, this is not to say that a Montreal crowd is more informed or intelligent, I"m only stating what the hockey world already knows. I am just making a case as to why some ppl may rather watch the Habs in Montreal with all things equal.

Secondly, I'm not going to disagree with you in saying that a winning team can't help, but I will argue that Montreal in the 90's had less of a following than it does today. Not because we're marginally better, if that, but because the sport has become an "in thing" to follow by young people, and going to a game or bar is more of an event than 10 years ago. Not to mention, now, it's the only major sport in town after the expos departure, and after the lock-out, that reality really became clear.

If any of you have proof that the Leafs get better ratings than the Habs I would love to analyze the numbers. Just because they've been the only option, does not make them the default most popular.

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10-24-2009, 04:34 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post

If any of you have proof that the Leafs get better ratings than the Habs I would love to analyze the numbers. Just because they've been the only option, does not make them the default most popular.
I still don't see a catalyst for change.

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10-24-2009, 04:35 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
Well they did boo the Leafs off the ice last game which is a nice thing imo. But a Montreal crowd would have turned on the team way before, perhaps even taunting their own players beyond reason, cheer mockingly for every easy save etc... Lets face it, they can be the most disrespectful obnoxious fans, be it against their own team or with their Ole Ole when there is no score in the 1st. Love it or hate it, it's better entertainment than ____ (silence). Winning or losing has less influence than you make, atmosphere is a cultural thing...
The fans didn't start booing the Leafs last game. They've been booed several times this season, and have been regularly booed during big losses for the past few years. I don't think you follow Leafs hockey, and its obvious your opinion is based on some preconceived notions rather than actual observation.

"Culture"? Yeah, you're right. We're all up-tight WASPs here. Jeez, are you still stuck in the 1950s?

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10-24-2009, 04:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
We're comparing crowds that sell-out.

Whether the product on the ice is stellar or not does not change the fact that every seat has a bum farting on it.

If the product sucks, than high involvement crowds will react in ways to get the team motivated ( Go Leafs Go) or by showing displeasure and emotion.

Just sitting there like lame ducks is Toronto.
It depends on the situation. If you have a good team that is having a bad night then fans are more likely to get into it and try to get their team back in the game. But in Toronto, as it's been for the last few years, fans know the team isn't good and are less likely to chant things when the team is down 3 or 4 goals or playing like garbage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
YES I am... it's called STAGE, and in any form of entertainment, that is big.

What do most ppl talk about when watching a NFL game vs CFL.

One looks like a professional league with 60 thousand screaming fans, the other is a whistle blowing crowd of 20.

Atmosphere is huge
Outside of Toronto, most CFL games are sold-out or close to it. The stadiums in the CFL aren't as big as the NFL but I don't think people are chosing not to watch a CFL game due to the size of a stadium or because the crowd isn't as loud. It's probably more due to the fact that the NFL is a far better product.

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Originally Posted by Squiffy View Post
I am sick to death about hearing about our "quiet" crowd, I gotta say.

CBC wants to losing some rating points, they can go ahead and drop the Leafs, whatever. I'll never miss a game anyhow, and most big fans out of the local viewing area are likely going to have Centre Ice anyhow for all the weekday days, so meh, go for it.
Agreed. Toronto has the largest market and therefore produces the highest ratings. People outside of the GTA who hate the Leafs still watch because they like to see their most hated team lose. I hate the Colts and Cowboys in the NFL but will watch most of their games because I like cheering for the team they are playing against.

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Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
First of all, ratings for hockey has gone up for every team in Canada. Now, take Manitoba as an example. What makes you think that the majority of the hockey market that watches a leafs game is in fact a leafs fan? Perhaps he's just a hockey fan. Ahh.. give him a Habs game, and he'll watch it just the same. This market appreciates atmosphere, just as much as a quality match-up with superstars. Listening to a crowd that's chanting, or over reacting for every non-call, a crowd thats essentially involved, does increase the excitement level. And that's the type of thing that can make new followers too.

As for the streams, can you tell me where they are coming from? China? Australia? Does not mean that it's coming from Canada.
Don't you think CBC has done their market research? If more people were going to watch a game featuring Montreal or Ottawa I think CBC would know that and would change which games are avaliable in particular territories. Look, it's not only CBC that chooses to broadcast more national Leaf games - TSN and the NHL Network US feature several and it's for good reason. And don't forget that the NHL Network US as no obligation to syndicate Leaf games on Saturday nights; they can choose any of the 2-3 HNIC games that are on at 7PM.

I think you are really overvaluing the effect the atmosphere has on a television audience. Ratings have more to do who's playing and what the match-up is. Toronto wasn't the national game on several occasions last year because other Canadian teams were playing in marquee match-ups. If they used your argument, then CBC would always chose to have Edmonton or Montreal has their marquee match-up because they have the loudest crowds in Canada, and the NHL Network US would always show Philadelphia and Carolina.

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Old
10-24-2009, 04:38 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
If any of you have proof that the Leafs get better ratings than the Habs I would love to analyze the numbers. Just because they've been the only option, does not make them the default most popular.
Ask and thou shalt receive. Dec/08.

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Originally Posted by Squiffy View Post
Well folks, as we all know for the first time since 1996, the Leafs this past Saturday were not on CBC's Hockey Night in Canada.

Long has been the debate of, "How much do the Leafs actually affect the ratings?". Are they in fact the biggest draw, and justified in showing as the national HNIC broadcast lo these many years? Or merely an intolerable bias towards Toronto?

For the first time in well over a decade, we can examine some hard data.

The Leafs, as the national broadcast of HNIC, through the first nine Saturdays of the season, averaged a draw of 1,334,889 for HNIC. I presume this includes viewership for locally broadcast CBC games as well.

That other Canadian original six team, with the market to themselves and a prime match-up, showcasing Washington and young phenom Alexander Ovechkin, drew 942,000, a drop of nearly 30% in viewership.

A similar match-up of the Leafs versus Washington on December 6, 2008, shared with a Montreal - New Jersey match-up, produced a draw of 1,220,000.

I trust that this will do nothing towards stemming the debate of why the Leafs are featured nationally so routinely, but draw your own conclusions based on cold hard numbers.

Viewership numbers from: http://www.bbm.ca/en/top_programs.html

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10-24-2009, 04:41 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by Squiffy View Post
Ask and thou shalt receive. Dec/08.
I just went to make a search of that exact post, didn't remember it was you who posted it.

It's obvious the Leafs get better ratings. There isn't some Leaf fan sitting in CBC head offices out to conspire against the other Canadian teams. It's just a ridiculous notion.

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10-24-2009, 04:42 PM
  #100
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I just went to make a search of that exact post, didn't remember it was you who posted it.

It's obvious the Leafs get better ratings. There isn't some Leaf fan sitting in CBC head offices out to conspire against the other Canadian teams. It's just a ridiculous notion.
Pet project of mine. I should read that thread over, there was a great Habs poster that I continued to debate with the rest of the year on the subject, great conversations. I should look him up again..

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