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Wings at the end of their run?

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Old
10-25-2009, 02:30 PM
  #51
TheMoreYouKnow
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I think it's very possible the championship-contending years might be over. It's not just that we replaced a lot of proven talent this off-season with unproven guys but also key players are past the apex of their careers and we already have had some bad luck with injuries as well. And the cap rewards teams with cheap talent - our cheap talent finally turned pricy so we had to discard some of it.

Finally other teams improve, their young players get better and they have had the cap space to add good veterans to their cores and that was bound to eventually shift the balance of power.

In spite of that though, if you look at who we have on the roster, barring some across the board decline, home ice in the first round should be within the possible. Can we still compete with other powerhouses in the later rounds? Maybe not, but should we be a team fighting for playoff life around the trade deadline? I don't think so. We were a few bad goals away from winning the Cup a few months ago in spite of the now departed Hossa playing dead in that series.

If we do find ourselves in that position though, which is a possibility, something went wrong that goes beyond the obvious facts of relative decline compared to other teams with more cap space and younger talent and there would have to be some responsibility taken. Part of the whole point of the "Detroit system" was to avoid that kind of sharp free fall and provide consistency.

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Old
10-25-2009, 03:11 PM
  #52
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It all depends on the core players' ability to stay healthy, IMO.

Even with the roster losses due to the cap, if all the Wings' big guns were in good shape you probably wouldn't even be having this discussion.

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10-25-2009, 04:35 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Caseman View Post
What is wrong with Datsyuk? He is killing me in my fantasy :/
Toews is killing me in mine, too.

Datsyuk is playing well, he just has no chemistry with anyone right now....just like every other forward on this team it seems. He's playing well, its just not showing up on the scoresheet.

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10-25-2009, 10:46 PM
  #54
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Ryan Malone would be a great addition and heard his name being mentioned as a guy the Bolts may look to unload to shave payroll

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10-26-2009, 12:26 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Booyah! View Post
Ryan Malone would be a great addition and heard his name being mentioned as a guy the Bolts may look to unload to shave payroll

Keep in mind that in order for the Wings to acquire an impressive player we would first have to shed a considerable amount of salary.

Our best option is to look for a major signing in the next off season (i.e. Kovy or/and Naby) when we have some cash, as well as make use of what will likely be a high draft slot.

The draft candidates that the Wings should draft in 2010 that would fit our style of hockey best would be:

1. Stanislav Galiev
2. Maxim Kitsyn
and
3. Austin Levi

among others. We need to draft forwards and defensive defensemen, no more of this offensive defenseman bullcrap; we need skilled defensemen who are more than willing to punish an opposing player at any given opportunity as Chara does, and we need high energy high skill forwards that score every single game like Washington has. I believe that the Red Wings can significantly improve their team in a single draft because they could develop these players to their full potential.

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10-26-2009, 10:17 AM
  #56
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The Wings now have the room with Franzen out, and they supposedly have a ton of room next year, so adding him shouldn't be as big of an issue.

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10-26-2009, 12:06 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Booyah! View Post
The Wings now have the room with Franzen out, and they supposedly have a ton of room next year, so adding him shouldn't be as big of an issue.
4.5M for a guy who hasn't still notched 55 points at the age of 29 is a steep price. I like Malone, and I'm impressed that hes managed to stay a 25+ goal scorer, but the Wings simply can't afford that salary unless they're going to move one of their many 20/20 guys.

If for some reason Cleary agreed to a trade, then I wouldn't mind a straight swap of Malone for Cleary. Yeah, its not fair value for Tampa, but they essentially get the same player back, albeit a little less talented, and save nearly $2M in the process.

Still, when you think that a 30/60-70 guy like Frolov might be had for 4.5-5M, Malone at 4.5M for god knows how long doesn't look too hot.

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10-26-2009, 12:21 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by TheFirebird View Post
Our best option is to look for a major signing in the next off season (i.e. Kovy or/and Naby) when we have some cash, as well as make use of what will likely be a high draft slot.
The Wings won't touch Kovalchuk or Nabakov. Kovalchuk will command 9-10 million on the open market, and the last thing the Wings need is to sign another goalie to a contract at the age of 35.

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10-26-2009, 12:29 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by detredWINgs View Post
4.5M for a guy who hasn't still notched 55 points at the age of 29 is a steep price. I like Malone, and I'm impressed that hes managed to stay a 25+ goal scorer, but the Wings simply can't afford that salary unless they're going to move one of their many 20/20 guys.

If for some reason Cleary agreed to a trade, then I wouldn't mind a straight swap of Malone for Cleary. Yeah, its not fair value for Tampa, but they essentially get the same player back, albeit a little less talented, and save nearly $2M in the process.


Still, when you think that a 30/60-70 guy like Frolov might be had for 4.5-5M, Malone at 4.5M for god knows how long doesn't look too hot.
Now you're making me angry!

Can you ~please~ explain to me why, as a Wings GM, you'd trade a heart and soul player off the Wings, a true playoff warrior, who costs $2.8 in cap hit and essentially get back what you call the "same player" but pay $2 MM more?

Malone gets you 5-10 more goals, although one must consider where Cleary played (top six and third line, depending on situation) in getting his 20 G rate. Cleary is one year older than Malone and is signed for 3 more years at $2.8 MM. Malone has 5 more years at $4.5 MM.

Sorry, but I may like Malone for his intangibles but I wouldn't dump a dedicated, hard-working guy like Cleary, who just happens to cost a lot less without the longterm commitment to boot. Even putting aside the intangibles and how this could send the wrong message to the team here, you can get another player for under $2 MM if you're just interested in gaining another 10 G on the roster...

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10-26-2009, 12:46 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Now you're making me angry!

Can you ~please~ explain to me why, as a Wings GM, you'd trade a heart and soul player off the Wings, a true playoff warrior, who costs $2.8 in cap hit and essentially get back what you call the "same player" but pay $2 MM more?

Malone gets you 5-10 more goals, although one must consider where Cleary played (top six and third line, depending on situation) in getting his 20 G rate. Cleary is one year older than Malone and is signed for 3 more years at $2.8 MM. Malone has 5 more years at $4.5 MM.

Sorry, but I may like Malone for his intangibles but I wouldn't dump a dedicated, hard-working guy like Cleary, who just happens to cost a lot less without the longterm commitment to boot. Even putting aside the intangibles and how this could send the wrong message to the team here, you can get another player for under $2 MM if you're just interested in gaining another 10 G on the roster...
Lets not sit around and act like Malone isn't the more talented player here. Cleary struggles to score 20 goals and 40 points as it is, and it doesn't matter if hes playing alongside Datsyuk or Filppula. When you consider that, and consider that Malone does everything that Cleary does (and got his big contract essentially because he's also a playoff warrior), theres a reason why hes getting paid more than Cleary. Malone does everything that Cleary does, except better.

Malone is a pure goal scorer. Cleary isn't. And frankly, although Malone would not be my first...or 8th...choice as an addition, I'd sure as hell rather overpay for a guy who puts the biscuit in the basket than a handful of guys who spend all day passing the puck around and doing nothing with it, like the Wings have.

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10-26-2009, 01:10 PM
  #61
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Malone is a minor upgrade over Cleary, and even though he's got the potential to score 30 goals I'm not convinced he's a better value. Cleary's contract is way more cap friendly.

Anyway, adding Malone would be nothing more than a relatively minor tweak. Would it make the team better? Sure. Would it turn the season around? Nope, not likely at all.

The real problem here is that the team's best players are not playing well. If we want to single players out for falling short of expectations, we need to start with Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Lidstrom. Z and Datsyuk have one goal between them, and 13 points through 9 games. That's not nearly good enough. Lidstrom has been decent defensively, save for the higher number of giveaways, but offensively he's a dud. One goal and two assists through 9 games is not enough production given the opportunity he gets on a nightly basis. Ericsson has twice the goals and nearly twice the points with 10 minutes less IT per game, and nearly no PP time.

The three guys wearing the letters need to step it up, or this season will continue to go south. It's that simple.

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10-26-2009, 02:09 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by detredWINgs View Post
Lets not sit around and act like Malone isn't the more talented player here. Cleary struggles to score 20 goals and 40 points as it is, and it doesn't matter if hes playing alongside Datsyuk or Filppula. When you consider that, and consider that Malone does everything that Cleary does (and got his big contract essentially because he's also a playoff warrior), theres a reason why hes getting paid more than Cleary. Malone does everything that Cleary does, except better.

Malone is a pure goal scorer. Cleary isn't. And frankly, although Malone would not be my first...or 8th...choice as an addition, I'd sure as hell rather overpay for a guy who puts the biscuit in the basket than a handful of guys who spend all day passing the puck around and doing nothing with it, like the Wings have.
Seeing we let Hossa go at around $5 MM cap hit, Malone at $4.5 MM is serious overpayment for a guy you claim "puts the biscuit in the basket." I don't see anything in his history that suggests he's a pure goal scorer. At 30 yrs of age, he's not going to get drastically better either. Compare to Franzen's $3.9 MM, and "it's not even close."

I also don't see him being incredibly more talented or skilled than Cleary. Cleary is a defense first forward, just like Babs wants him to be. Ever since his jaw got crushed by Sammy, he seems to have lost a step. I still believe his potential, when fully healthy and in the top six, is 25 G. I'll pass on Malone at that salary any day of the week.

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10-26-2009, 03:06 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Seeing we let Hossa go at around $5 MM cap hit, Malone at $4.5 MM is serious overpayment for a guy you claim "puts the biscuit in the basket." I don't see anything in his history that suggests he's a pure goal scorer. At 30 yrs of age, he's not going to get drastically better either. Compare to Franzen's $3.9 MM, and "it's not even close."

I also don't see him being incredibly more talented or skilled than Cleary. Cleary is a defense first forward, just like Babs wants him to be. Ever since his jaw got crushed by Sammy, he seems to have lost a step. I still believe his potential, when fully healthy and in the top six, is 25 G. I'll pass on Malone at that salary any day of the week.
Franzen and Hossa got 10+ year contracts, so thats also a moot point. Franzen also never hit the open market, where he easily would've made 5M. Probably more if the team bidding for him was looking to make a serious cup run.

In this league, you'll always pay more for a guy who scores goals on the open market than a guy who just puts up points. As always, assists are roughly twice as easy to get, and having a guy that you know will put up 25+ goals on a full season is extremely valuable. All you have to do is look a the Red Wings roster and see what a dearth of goal scoring - despite tons of skill - has done to this team through the first 10 games.

And at 30 years of age, Malone doesn't need to get drastically better. He scores 30 goals on a full season last year, and hes already got 7 alone in 9 games this season. He also never got a top 6 spot until late in 2008, so to use his entire NHL career as a basis for his talent is akin to saying Franzen's late blooming was more fluke than fact.

But this isn't anything new, really. Most Wings fans overrate our own players, and undervalue other teams players. It'd be nice to have Malone, but not until we dump the nearly 10M we have tied up in a bunch of guys who can't score goals, and have a hard time putting up more than 40 points as it is.

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Old
10-26-2009, 04:11 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by detredWINgs View Post
Franzen and Hossa got 10+ year contracts, so thats also a moot point. Franzen also never hit the open market, where he easily would've made 5M. Probably more if the team bidding for him was looking to make a serious cup run.
It's not at all a moot point, in a salary cap world. What a GM has to consider is a player's cap hit overall. And yes, letting a guy hit the open market does at times mean you pay a lot more. Hence why Clearly at $2.8 MM is a GREAT contract.

Malone at $4.5 MM for 6 more yrs would be complete overpayment for the Wings. You don't do that with anyone but elite players. ($6MM, 6, 5.5, 2.5, 2.5...). [actual pay is higher than Franzen for first 3 years]

Quote:
In this league, you'll always pay more for a guy who scores goals on the open market than a guy who just puts up points. As always, assists are roughly twice as easy to get, and having a guy that you know will put up 25+ goals on a full season is extremely valuable. All you have to do is look a the Red Wings roster and see what a dearth of goal scoring - despite tons of skill - has done to this team through the first 10 games.
So.... Sammy at $2.5 MM on the open market for his 20G is a steal because teams will pay nearly $5 MM per year for a guy that can get 5 more goals per year? I think the 30-40 and 40+ G crowd maybe commands the $5 MM and multiple years contracts.

The main thing here is the value to the Wings. They simply cannot afford to pay $5 MM per year for 6-7 yrs for a 25 G scorer. An 80+ pt guy can get that here; or a very friendly cap number for the midlevel players. (E.g., Kronwall, Flip, Cleary)

We argued about Hossa's value (40 G scorer) at even the $5 MM per year hit, and there were those who believed you gave up too much on the depth side to keep him. How does Malone for 6 yrs make it THAT much better? 15 fewer goals potential, and a nice chunk of cap space.

Quote:
And at 30 years of age, Malone doesn't need to get drastically better. He scores 30 goals on a full season last year, and hes already got 7 alone in 9 games this season. He also never got a top 6 spot until late in 2008, so to use his entire NHL career as a basis for his talent is akin to saying Franzen's late blooming was more fluke than fact.
How many years of 30 or more goals does Malone have? What kind of IT is seeing in TB and with which linemates?

Even if he does give you 30 G per year, how do you justify using this approach to cap management when you just said no to Hossa and his 40 G for $500K more per year?

Holland's entire premise is that you can only have so many of these higher salaries. He has two D and 3 fowards in the $4 MM or higher category. That's it!

Quote:
But this isn't anything new, really. Most Wings fans overrate our own players, and undervalue other teams players. It'd be nice to have Malone, but not until we dump the nearly 10M we have tied up in a bunch of guys who can't score goals, and have a hard time putting up more than 40 points as it is.
Well, in that scenario, the team could have kept Hossa. All value is relative. Your generalization that, since we're in disagreement over Malone's value, I'm overvaluing Cleary and undervaluing Malone isn't a factual statement in spite of you making it sound like one. Just because -->you<-- like Malone doesn't mean you've got the value right either. If certain teams want to pay a $4.5 MM for 6-7 yrs for a 25 G scorer, hopefully they have good justification for doing so. In the case of TB, he seems to be "their" Franzen. The Wings already have a better cap number with Franzen, and tying up nearly $5 MM on a "maybe" 25-30 G guy is a bit too risky. I'd prefer giving that kind of money to a guy with a longer track record.

My two cents.

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Old
10-27-2009, 02:55 AM
  #65
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Are people really talking about trading for a guy with a $4.5M cap hit after the Wings let Hossa walk away for a $5M cap hit?

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10-27-2009, 04:50 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
It all depends on the core players' ability to stay healthy, IMO.

Even with the roster losses due to the cap, if all the Wings' big guns were in good shape you probably wouldn't even be having this discussion.
That si a nice wish.....

The problem is, to keep Players heal;thy you have to protect them.
It's now for 2 or 3 years, critics says the team has lost size and grit.

The fans was laughing because they won a cup.
But longterm you don't have any players to protect your puck posession players.
The other teams add size and speed while Detroit was happy wioth figure scaters.
If Detoit doesn't watch out hardly, this could be really the end of the run

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10-27-2009, 10:59 AM
  #67
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Are people really talking about trading for a guy with a $4.5M cap hit after the Wings let Hossa walk away for a $5M cap hit?
Hell, let's take this even further. Samuelsson walked away for an extremely reasonable $2.5M per season and he's got five goals already (which leads the Canucks).

There were several of us who were quite vocal in our complaints about Holland's handling of players last summer. I said it months ago... he blew it. In trying to keep everyone, he P.O'd all of his free agents and lost them all... even the one that was an RFA.

That's water under the bridge at this point, though. We can talk all we want about what could have been or should have been. The reality we're left with is a team that's way worse than any we've iced in a very long time. We're either going to start scoring some goals soon, or it'll be time to hit the panic button.

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10-27-2009, 04:20 PM
  #68
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Hell, let's take this even further. Samuelsson walked away for an extremely reasonable $2.5M per season and he's got five goals already (which leads the Canucks).

There were several of us who were quite vocal in our complaints about Holland's handling of players last summer. I said it months ago... he blew it. In trying to keep everyone, he P.O'd all of his free agents and lost them all... even the one that was an RFA.

That's water under the bridge at this point, though. We can talk all we want about what could have been or should have been. The reality we're left with is a team that's way worse than any we've iced in a very long time. We're either going to start scoring some goals soon, or it'll be time to hit the panic button.
Come now, dj, you're not still pining about Sammy are you?

Fun facts about Samuelsson since 05-06:

08-09: 1st 23 games = 21 points Season total = 40 points
07-08: 1st 13 games = 11 points Season total = 40 points
06-07: 1st 11 games = 9 points Season total = 34 points
05-06: 1st 12 games = 11 points Season total = 45 points

This season: 1st 11 games = 10 points

There's always the off chance that Sammy will turn into an 80 point dynamo after leaving the Wings, but given his history of fast starts and catastrophically bad dropoffs, you'd have to agree that this is almost certainly Sammy's annual early season bonanza, to be followed soon by a 15 game pointless streak and a finish in the 40-50 point neighborhood.

Maybe this year instead of swooning in January when guys like Sammy have run out of gas, there will be some other guys ready to contribute more regularly because of the lumps they're taking now. I'd rather have a 4th seed team that is building on its play through the spring than a 1st seed team that built up a lead in October and is loafing its way down the stretch the way this team has done at various times.

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10-28-2009, 10:39 AM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFirebird View Post
Keep in mind that in order for the Wings to acquire an impressive player we would first have to shed a considerable amount of salary.

Our best option is to look for a major signing in the next off season (i.e. Kovy or/and Naby) when we have some cash, as well as make use of what will likely be a high draft slot.

The draft candidates that the Wings should draft in 2010 that would fit our style of hockey best would be:

1. Stanislav Galiev
2. Maxim Kitsyn
and
3. Austin Levi

among others. We need to draft forwards and defensive defensemen, no more of this offensive defenseman bullcrap; we need skilled defensemen who are more than willing to punish an opposing player at any given opportunity as Chara does, and we need high energy high skill forwards that score every single game like Washington has. I believe that the Red Wings can significantly improve their team in a single draft because they could develop these players to their full potential.
Are you the publisher of the Young Guns mock draft lists? If not, you two sure do think alike. You're 3 for 3 according to that list.

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10-28-2009, 10:57 AM
  #70
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You know what would have been sweet, if the wings traded their 10 and 11 1st rounder, their 10 2nd rounder, the rights to Jiri Hudler and maybe some prospect to Boston to get Kessel, and then we ship to Kessel to Toronto after for their 10 and 11 1st, 10 2nd, and draft Taylor Hall and **** the NHL over LOL. Just imagine if we were able to steal away a first overall pick the panic the NHL would have went to. The lottery for sure would be designed to make sure that the worst team didn't end up getting 1st overall LOL

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