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Fire Paul Holmgren Thread (and related front office screwups) - 09/10 Edition

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Old
10-28-2009, 03:01 PM
  #1
FlyHigh
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Fire Paul Holmgren Thread (and related front office screwups) - 09/10 Edition

I figured it was time for a separate thread and Bennyflyers also posted something similar in the Stevens thread, the Jones thing was kind of the last straw for me personally and it's useful to separate GM and coaching discussion, it's not directly Stevens' fault that we don't have a guy who can win an FO.

Paul Holmgren's resume:

The Good
Signing Kimmo
Signing Hartnell
Coburn Trade
Drafting JVR
Forsberg Trade
Pronger Trade
Legein Trade
Biron Trade and Signing
Carle Trade
Umberger for Sbisa
Signing Ossi

The Bad
Vandermeer Trade
Modry Trade
Eminger Trade
Gauthier Trade (we dealt a 2nd with him, why not keep him in the AHL?)
Upshall Trade
Jones Contract
Metropolit waived
Not bringing in a 3rd line C
Not bringing in someone who could win a faceoff
Overall cap management
The Klotz pick (it has to be mentioned because it was just so, so bad).
Trading away all of our high picks for 3 drafts in a row.
Recalling Jones.
Waiving Ossi.

The Undecided
Briere contract
Pronger contract
Bringing in Emery, letting Biron go.
Not trading for a decent goalie prospect

I'm probably missing a few moves, but that's the basic resume. So how do you feel? Has Holmgren resurrected the franchise from the 06-07 hell or has he developed a team using poor cap management that has had the same fundamental flaws for the last 2 years?

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10-28-2009, 03:04 PM
  #2
bennysflyers16
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I have been a Holmer supporter, but with his hard on for Stevens and today's move ???
Can someone please explain to me in what scenario does recalling Jones make sense ?

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Old
10-28-2009, 03:05 PM
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Opus
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Would the training staff that everybody likes to rag about fall into (front office screwups), or do they get their own thread, too?

I wouldn't want anybody feeling left out here.

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10-28-2009, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Opus View Post
Would the training staff that everybody likes to rag about fall into (front office screwups), or do they get their own thread, too?

I wouldn't want anybody feeling left out here.
I purposely said front office screwups to try to encompass everything outside of coaching though I guess the training staff might not quite fall in there, they certainly have messed up on a couple occasions with Gagne.

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10-28-2009, 03:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
I figured it was time for a separate thread and Bennyflyers also posted something similar in the Stevens thread, the Jones thing was kind of the last straw for me personally and it's useful to separate GM and coaching discussion, it's not directly Stevens' fault that we don't have a guy who can win an FO.

Paul Holmgren's resume:

The Good
Signing Kimmo
Signing Hartnell
Coburn Trade
Drafting JVR
Forsberg Trade
Pronger Trade
Legein Trade
Biron Trade and Signing
Carle Trade
Umberger for Sbisa
Signing Ossi

The Bad
Vandermeer Trade
Modry Trade
Eminger Trade
Gauthier Trade (we dealt a 2nd with him, why not keep him in the AHL?)
Upshall Trade
Jones Contract
Metropolit waived
Not bringing in a 3rd line C
Not bringing in someone who could win a faceoff
Overall cap management
The Klotz pick (it has to be mentioned because it was just so, so bad).
Trading away all of our high picks for 3 drafts in a row.
Recalling Jones.
Waiving Ossi.

The Undecided
Briere contract
Pronger contract
Bringing in Emery, letting Biron go.
Not trading for a decent goalie prospect

I'm probably missing a few moves, but that's the basic resume. So how do you feel? Has Holmgren resurrected the franchise from the 06-07 hell or has he developed a team using poor cap management that has had the same fundamental flaws for the last 2 years?
I agree for the most part.

I think he started off good. Did a great job rebuilding after the year that must not be named. Since then he's been pretty sub-par I think.

Someone's ass has to be fired though. I'm getting sick of this crap.

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Old
10-28-2009, 03:10 PM
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I'd rate the Pronger-trade as undecided.

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10-28-2009, 03:12 PM
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A couple things....

As for the bad, I don't think "trading all the picks" can be considered bad yet. It's basically the Pronger trade so we need to see how that works out.

I also think we need to designate cause and effect in some cases (for the bad). For example...NOT waiving Jones, meant that Upshall was traded, that we had to sign scrubs to ATO's to field 6 D-man, and that we couldn't re-sign Knuble. We later decided to waive Jones. Only to bring him back and risk half his cap hit for nothing.

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10-28-2009, 03:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bakunin View Post
I'd rate the Pronger-trade as undecided.
I thought about it, but I don't think so. Pronger is almost a once in a generation guy, I know a couple others feel differently, but he has been everything I expected and more. Look at what we gave up.

Lupul - Streak scorer, good 2nd liner, not an ideal 1st line guy.

Sbisa - A good prospect, but I think most of us see him as a No.3 ceiling, I don't know if he'll be a top pairing guy ever.

2 No.1s - They should be in the late 20s anyways.

You got to give something to get something, Pronger has 8 points in 10 games, he's easily been the best player on the team, and the change in Carle is unbelievable. Pronger's playing at a Norris level and he will for the next 3-4 years at least.

The contract is another story which is why it's in the undecided part, but I have no regrets about the trade so far.

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10-28-2009, 03:16 PM
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Also, for bad cap management...I think we need more specifics.

Parent, Jones, and Briere go on LTIR so we trade for Alberts and Carle (quite a bit of salary) only to have them all come back, and have no cap room. This leads to Upshall being traded so Giroux can be kept up. Which leads to me previous post about how NOT waiving Jones at this point led to more problems.

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Old
10-28-2009, 03:16 PM
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We Want Clarkie! LOL

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10-28-2009, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
A couple things....

As for the bad, I don't think "trading all the picks" can be considered bad yet. It's basically the Pronger trade so we need to see how that works out.

I also think we need to designate cause and effect in some cases (for the bad). For example...NOT waiving Jones, meant that Upshall was traded, that we had to sign scrubs to ATO's to field 6 D-man, and that we couldn't re-sign Knuble. We later decided to waive Jones. Only to bring him back and risk half his cap hit for nothing.
He also gave away a 2nd with Goat (moronic) and with Upshall (moronic). I mean, the firsts I can accept, it's the trading away of all our other high picks and then wasting 2 of them (DeSerres has never even come close to looking like an NHL prospect and then you have Klotz) which bugs me.

As for the Jones contract, it's obviously led to cluster**** of bad moves, Ossi, Metro, Scottie to start with, so I figured it was best to list them all separately.

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10-28-2009, 03:17 PM
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Metropolit waived? lol

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10-28-2009, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
I purposely said front office screwups to try to encompass everything outside of coaching though I guess the training staff might not quite fall in there, they certainly have messed up on a couple occasions with Gagne.
No problem, mate.

I don't know if I would go so far as to say the training staff is guilty on a couple occasions with Gagne. Heck, I know they caught some flack last season with Briere and his multiple injuries...but who's to say that they screwed up anything?

They are only as good as the players allow them to be. If said players (Gagne/Briere) don't tell them by whats plaguing them...what are they to do?

In the case of Gagne, we all know he 'tweaked' something at the Canadian Olympic camp. I'm pretty sure both parties handled him properly and didn't give him the green light until he said he was fine. As for his play with Flyers thus far, we do know he's on a contract year this season. No, I'm not blaming Gagne, but I wouldn't at all be surprised if he kept the injury to himself as he wanted to play through it and start producing.

Just my thoughts.

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10-28-2009, 03:19 PM
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This Randy Jones situation will make me sour on Holmgren if Jones is claimed and we are on the hook for 1/2 his salary.

For the most part, I thought Holmgren did a pretty good job building this team, but the last season and a half he has made alot of questionable moves AND killed us with the cap. I mean come on, a team that was supposed to contend for the stanley cup has to sign not 1 BUT 2 defensemen to ATOs in order to field a full lineup during the stretch run? That's something you'd expect to see the Lightning or Islanders do.

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10-28-2009, 03:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Not trading for a decent goalie prospect
I'll get on Holmgren for anything, but this isn't one (although you did put it under undecided).

This generally does not happen in the league. Like ever. At least not for anyone people here find worth trading for. I mean no one else trades for them and no one else trades them. How long have people in HF been talking about guys like Schneider, Pavelec, Harding, etc., being in the block and traded, and here they all are still on the team that drafted them while Brian Boucher/Patrick Lalime/Jason Labarbera still somehow have an NHL contracts.

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10-28-2009, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
I'll get on Holmgren for anything, but this isn't one (although you did put it under undecided).

This generally does not happen in the league. Like ever. At least not for anyone people here find worth trading for. I mean no one else trades for them and no one else trades them. How long have people in HF been talking about guys like Schneider, Pavelec, Harding, etc., being in the block and traded, and here they all are still on the team that drafted them while Brian Boucher/Patrick Lalime/Jason Labarbera still somehow have an NHL contracts.
100% agree.

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Old
10-28-2009, 03:30 PM
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Flyers would be a very different team if we took a different approach during that non-rebuilding 2007 year. Instead of spending 20M on Hartnell, Timonen, Briere and others we should of just draft and get just a little better giving out one year contracts to veteran players. In 2008 we would draft again probably in top 10.

Now, who knows. Can we beat Pittsburgh in playoffs this year or next year?

In 3 years Homer traded more 1st round picks then Clarke in 10 years. Probably??

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10-28-2009, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
Flyers would be a very different team if we took a different approach during that non-rebuilding 2007 year. Instead of spending 20M on Hartnell, Timonen, Briere and others we should of just draft and get just a little better giving out one year contracts to veteran players. In 2008 we would draft again probably in top 10.
people on these forums cant stand our record now in october what do yot think they would have been like if we shanked another year down the toilet for a top 10 pick?

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10-28-2009, 03:42 PM
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Quote:

The Bad
Vandermeer Trade
Modry Trade
Eminger Trade
Gauthier Trade (we dealt a 2nd with him, why not keep him in the AHL?)
Upshall Trade
Jones Contract
Metropolit waived
Not bringing in a 3rd line C
Not bringing in someone who could win a faceoff
Overall cap management
The Klotz pick (it has to be mentioned because it was just so, so bad).
Trading away all of our high picks for 3 drafts in a row.
Recalling Jones.
Waiving Ossi.

The Undecided
Briere contract
Pronger contract
Bringing in Emery, letting Biron go.
Not trading for a decent goalie prospect
Hindsight is 20/20. At the time a lot of those "Bad" moves weren't bad moves.

Jones contract was def bad.

The Klotz pick was bad.

The cap management hasn't been great, but that is the biggest challenge in the NHL for GMs across the board.

Metropolit and Ossi waivings were bad, but not THAT bad.

He brought in Betts who can wind faceoffs and once is healthy will be a huge asset to have on PK and for faceoffs.

The Vandermeer trade wasn't really that big of a deal for either team (though I'm not real sure on which Vandermeer trade you are meaning to be bad. None of them were all that shocking or detrimental to the team).

I still think the Upshall trade wasn't a bad deal. I like Carcillo and there was no way the Flyers would resign Upshall.

The Modry trade I thought was pretty good (at the very least it definitely wasn't bad).

The Eminger trade also wasn't a bad deal. We got Deserres who is one of the team's best goalie prospects.

The Gauthier trade certainly wasn't a good trade, but I don't know if I would call it a bad trade. He was being paid a lot of money to play in the AHL. A second round pick in next year's draft isn't really going to be all that valuable.

Trading away the draft picks might seem bad now, but you can't really tell if that is bad for a long time. If the Flyers win the cup this year I'll take that over three prospects who may or may not amount to anything. I'd file that in the uncertain.

As for the undecideds, if the Flyers didn't go after Briere that offseason I everyone would have been bashing Homer for not going after him. I agree his contract is too big, but he was coming off a 92 point season in Buffalo, what would you expect? If the Flyers didn't give him the contract he wanted, someone else would have. The Pronger signing and trade should both be in the undecideds. If he brings home a cup, it will all be worth it. If not, big waste or talent/money.

It's real easy to look back and say, "Homer is stupid and he doesn't know what he is doing." But at the time the situations look a lot differently then they do now.

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10-28-2009, 03:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
Flyers would be a very different team if we took a different approach during that non-rebuilding 2007 year. Instead of spending 20M on Hartnell, Timonen, Briere and others we should of just draft and get just a little better giving out one year contracts to veteran players. In 2008 we would draft again probably in top 10.

Now, who knows. Can we beat Pittsburgh in playoffs this year or next year?

In 3 years Homer traded more 1st round picks then Clarke in 10 years. Probably??
Yeah thats a brilliant idea, we should have not signed 3 of our best players on our team today in favor of drafting a Wilson or Boedker. That really would have helped us win some hockey games in the past 3 years

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10-28-2009, 03:50 PM
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In 3 years Homer traded more 1st round picks then Clarke in 10 years. Probably??
For a franchise that said "we are not going to do that any more."

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10-28-2009, 03:51 PM
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Yeah thats a brilliant idea, we should have not signed 3 of our best players on our team today in favor of drafting a Wilson or Boedker. That really would have helped us win some hockey games in the past 3 years
Agreed. Trade for proven winners or risk draft picks? Not that we have any of those left. Like Philly fans have patience for rebuilding like they do perpetually in places like L.A. And other than JVR (who is still a work in progress), we don't exactly have a great record of picking well.

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10-28-2009, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
Flyers would be a very different team if we took a different approach during that non-rebuilding 2007 year. Instead of spending 20M on Hartnell, Timonen, Briere and others we should of just draft and get just a little better giving out one year contracts to veteran players. In 2008 we would draft again probably in top 10.

Now, who knows. Can we beat Pittsburgh in playoffs this year or next year?

In 3 years Homer traded more 1st round picks then Clarke in 10 years. Probably??
First of all, there's no honor in tanking -- you definitely don't have to do that to win. Secondly, of those 3 contracts, the only problem I have is with Briere's, but that's easy to say now because Carter and Richards are legit NHLers. Their superstardom was not even close to being a guarantee.

Holmgren's biggest problem is cap management - not necessarily those big contracts (Kimmo's worth every penny, Hartnell was going to get that money anyway), but the stuff like Lupul's and Jones's.

Not to beat this to death, but Holmgren mismanaged the Jones situation in every way possible. He gave him way, way too much money, kept him up when he shouldn't have (when he was injured), and didn't address it over the summer. Jones's contract led to us losing Metro, Ossi, and Upshall...plus, you could make a case that Knuble would still be here since the gap between his desired salary and our offer wasn't 1 million+

That summer after the season from hell was easier than everything else for Holmgren because he had a ****ton of money to work with and anything looked good. Now, it's getting a little tight next to the cap, and he spent a summer ****ing things up with Jones. Granted, he did get Pronger, but that still leaves a few other issues to take care of (3rd line center, back up goalie FAIL)

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10-28-2009, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by chimrichalds18 View Post
First of all, there's no honor in tanking -- you definitely don't have to do that to win. Secondly, of those 3 contracts, the only problem I have is with Briere's, but that's easy to say now because Carter and Richards are legit NHLers. Their superstardom was not even close to being a guarantee.

Holmgren's biggest problem is cap management - not necessarily those big contracts (Kimmo's worth every penny, Hartnell was going to get that money anyway), but the stuff like Lupul's and Jones's.

Not to beat this to death, but Holmgren mismanaged the Jones situation in every way possible. He gave him way, way too much money, kept him up when he shouldn't have (when he was injured), and didn't address it over the summer. Jones's contract led to us losing Metro, Ossi, and Upshall...plus, you could make a case that Knuble would still be here since the gap between his desired salary and our offer wasn't 1 million+

That summer after the season from hell was easier than everything else for Holmgren because he had a ****ton of money to work with and anything looked good. Now, it's getting a little tight next to the cap, and he spent a summer ****ing things up with Jones. Granted, he did get Pronger, but that still leaves a few other issues to take care of (3rd line center, back up goalie FAIL)
how is getting boucher who had a 917 save percentage a fail?

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10-28-2009, 04:06 PM
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Homer not firing Stevens is like introducing your friend to a really hot girl, then **** blocking him

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