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Fire Paul Holmgren Thread (and related front office screwups) - 09/10 Edition

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Old
10-28-2009, 04:09 PM
  #26
Dig Out Your Soul
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Agree with the premise of this thread. I'm done with him and Stevens.

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10-28-2009, 04:09 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillyFan4Ever View Post
how is getting boucher who had a 917 save percentage a fail?
Because save percentage is not what makes a goalie good.

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10-28-2009, 04:11 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by PhillyFan4Ever View Post
how is getting boucher who had a 917 save percentage a fail?
There's definitely a lot of hate on this board for Boucher after his performance against the Sharks - but I don't think he's quite as bad as people have been saying...he works as a backup, and he doesn't take up much cap space.

Sure, Nitty might have been a better choice, but there's not much out there...LaBarbera might have been ok, but he was pretty awful as well, and Kings fans were pretty happy to get rid of him. Other than that, there aren't many cheap options.

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10-28-2009, 04:15 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
Because save percentage is not what makes a goalie good.
so please tell me the criteria it entails to get someone under a mil as a backup and because when you look at his numbers he is perfect for a backup. hes from the area, he has played on a professional level for years. he took us to 7 games against the devils. so what is it about him that hes lacking that causes a fail?

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10-28-2009, 04:20 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by FlyersRKings View Post
Sure, Nitty might have been a better choice, but there's not much out there...LaBarbera might have been ok, but he was pretty awful as well, and Kings fans were pretty happy to get rid of him. Other than that, there aren't many cheap options.
not many people think he would have been with the issues with his hip.

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10-28-2009, 04:22 PM
  #31
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I've hated nearly every move he's made since he traded for Kimmo & Hartnell. I've had just about enough with him and Stevens. New regime altogether, use the same players, it will be an infinitely different result.

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10-28-2009, 04:29 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by BiLLY_ShOE1721 View Post
I've hated nearly every move he's made since he traded for Kimmo & Hartnell. I've had just about enough with him and Stevens. New regime altogether, use the same players, it will be an infinitely different result.
2 new guys in ties dont make or break a team. players will still put out as much effort as they would like. and what then if they still lose? we give the new coach and gm an excuse that it takes time getting the players to buy into a new system. or do we hold the players accountable?. they wont care either way. unless they start rebelling against the coaches. then the fan lose out no matter what. in todays sports we like to think players play for pride but most dont. most at that level play for their next contract. and you dont have to be a cup winner. you just have to play good enough for another team to think you are the missing peice to get them that cup.

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10-28-2009, 04:31 PM
  #33
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I wouldn't care too much if Holmgrem got fired. I think he's done decent overall.

Stevens has to go though.

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Old
10-28-2009, 04:35 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillyFan4Ever View Post
so please tell me the criteria it entails to get someone under a mil as a backup and because when you look at his numbers he is perfect for a backup. hes from the area, he has played on a professional level for years. he took us to 7 games against the devils. so what is it about him that hes lacking that causes a fail?
Don't look at numbers and watch games. The Devils series was almost 10 years ago. Should we go find Arturs Irbe too? He went to the finals more recently than that. Why don't you look at his numbers for the teams he played for who weren't so good, some of which actually counted on him to be a decent goaltender.

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10-28-2009, 04:41 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
Don't look at numbers and watch games. The Devils series was almost 10 years ago. Should we go find Arturs Irbe too? He went to the finals more recently than that. Why don't you look at his numbers for the teams he played for who weren't so good, some of which actually counted on him to be a decent goaltender.
But we're not counting on him to be a 'decent' goaltender - if Emery needs to play 70+ games, so be it, he'd be the first person to take it. Most goalies play better the more games they play, so knowing what I've heard about his character he'd embrace the opportunity. Sure goalies can have up and down years, but Carolina was using Irbe as a number 1. Can't imagine us using Boucher in such a position, we tried that already in 2000...

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10-28-2009, 04:44 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
Don't look at numbers and watch games. The Devils series was almost 10 years ago. Should we go find Arturs Irbe too? He went to the finals more recently than that. Why don't you look at his numbers for the teams he played for who weren't so good, some of which actually counted on him to be a decent goaltender.
i did watch the games i get center ice every year and its always a late game. the point of the devil series is that he has been there before and that is an important attribute to have is it not?

maybe you need to follow your previous advice and " not look at the numbers". your contradicting yourself. so look at numbers? dont look at numbers? watch the game? instead of looking at" numbers for the teams he played for who weren't so good, some of which actually counted on him to be a decent goaltender", and instead look at the teams he played against? because i have. and hes far from a "fail"

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Old
10-28-2009, 05:04 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by The Inebriator View Post
Yeah thats a brilliant idea, we should have not signed 3 of our best players on our team today in favor of drafting a Wilson or Boedker. That really would have helped us win some hockey games in the past 3 years
They are not our best players.... Well, maybe to you they are. I have no idea why are you talking about Wilson or Boedker. Maybe because of order they were drafted but why would you assume that Flyers would draft those exact players?

Even if Flyers get better, lets say we are firing on all cylinders in April. What prevents Pittsburgh from getting another scorer and top 4 d-men for 1st and 2nd round picks and prospects??

I think something will give in at some point. Injuries, coaching, goaltending, penalties, luck, cap room. Iíve seen it ALL before.

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Old
10-28-2009, 05:11 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by FlyersRKings View Post
Agreed. Trade for proven winners or risk draft picks? Not that we have any of those left. Like Philly fans have patience for rebuilding like they do perpetually in places like L.A.
Why would anyone ever compare Flyers to LA or Pittsburgh with Washington?
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersRKings View Post
And other than JVR (who is still a work in progress), we don't exactly have a great record of picking well.
So with exception of JVR Flyers sucked at picking in 1st round?

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Old
10-28-2009, 06:20 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillyFan4Ever View Post
2 new guys in ties dont make or break a team. players will still put out as much effort as they would like. and what then if they still lose? we give the new coach and gm an excuse that it takes time getting the players to buy into a new system. or do we hold the players accountable?. they wont care either way. unless they start rebelling against the coaches. then the fan lose out no matter what. in todays sports we like to think players play for pride but most dont. most at that level play for their next contract. and you dont have to be a cup winner. you just have to play good enough for another team to think you are the missing peice to get them that cup.
The new regime of a coach can carry along with a GM. It doesn't have to be both of them, but if there is a new coach, it is proven time and time again the players can and will respond. These two guys had great success with it last year. They both got their teams playing inspired hockey, and look where it got them, despite neither team being in the playoffs when they took the reigns. One took Washington to 7 games (and should've closed them out awhile ago), and the other won the cup.




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Old
10-28-2009, 06:20 PM
  #40
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You crazy kids are on your own for this one.

I'm not going to read it, just point out that drafting so far under Holmgren has appeared a lot better in the early stages of his regime. He's traded away a lot of key selections, but with the picks he's had to work with he's filled out the prospect pool very nicely.

I actually mentioned it in the 2009 System Audit.

Now, please continue with your ritualistic throwing of everyone under the bus.

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Old
10-28-2009, 06:22 PM
  #41
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I dont think canning Holmgren is an answer at all.

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Old
10-28-2009, 06:23 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
You crazy kids are on your own for this one.

I'm not going to read it, just point out that drafting so far under Holmgren has appeared a lot better in the early stages of his regime.

I actually mentioned it in the 2009 System Audit.

Now, place continue with your ritualistic throwing of everyone under the bus.
Well, by all accounts Holmgren had his hands all over the draft back then...so I'm not sure there is all that stark a transition between him as Asst GM and GM in that regard.

I'll also note, while its tough to win the Cup without drafting well...if you suck at everything else, all the drafting in the world won't save you.

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10-28-2009, 06:24 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by ForsbergIsOdin View Post
I dont think canning Holmgren is an answer at all.
If Jones gets claimed on re-entry he should be immediately fired. It's that effing stupid. He's already been burned once on re-entry...why not go back at it?

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Old
10-28-2009, 06:24 PM
  #44
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I like Holmgren and don't think he should be fired, but the **** thats going on right now is just insane

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Old
10-28-2009, 06:26 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BiLLY_ShOE1721 View Post
The new regime of a coach can carry along with a GM. It doesn't have to be both of them, but if there is a new coach, it is proven time and time again the players can and will respond. These two guys had great success with it last year. They both got their teams playing inspired hockey, and look where it got them, despite neither team being in the playoffs when they took the reigns. One took Washington to 7 games (and should've closed them out awhile ago), and the other won the cup.
Sure Pittsburgh won the Cup, but they have 2 of the best 3 players in the world as well as an all-star goalie. They also got lucky with the scheduling and had a tired injured Red Wings team for the finals. There are plenty of instances where a team changed the coach and they didn't go on to win the Cup.

Lot's of factors have to fall in to place, and it's no guarantee that firing Stevens = Stanley Cup.

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10-28-2009, 06:26 PM
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Well, by all accounts Holmgren had his hands all over the draft back then...so I'm not sure there is all that stark a transition between him as Asst GM and GM in that regard.

I'll also note, while its tough to win the Cup without drafting well...if you suck at everything else, all the drafting in the world won't save you.
True enough. It's also possible that Clarke is still whispering in his ear.

But regardless, there is a change in the prospect pool and it has been happening really since 2007.

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Old
10-28-2009, 06:30 PM
  #47
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True enough. It's also possible that Clarke is still whispering in his ear.

But regardless, there is a change in the prospect pool and it has been happening really since 2007.
Eh...I think you need to go back further. Mike Richards and Jeff Carter are the most important forwards to this team. Joni Pitkanen led to Smith and Lupul, who was turned around into Pronger. Giroux was the final pick 1st rounder under Clarke. Jason Williams...Simon Gagne at the back of the 1st round. Patrick Sharp...

We didn't magically start to find good players a couple years ago.

We've started to deal away a lot of picks the last few years (under Holmgren) and that's going to devalue the prospect pool in the coming years...Pronger trade will look horrible if we don't win a Cup with him on the blue line.

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Old
10-28-2009, 06:37 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
True enough. It's also possible that Clarke is still whispering in his ear.

But regardless, there is a change in the prospect pool and it has been happening really since 2007.
Clarke didn't even know Giroux's name when he picked him, so I strongly doubt he was that involved in the draft process.

And I mean, look at the prospect pool now.

Forwards:

Maroon - Huge wild-card.
Nodl - Done nothing but regress unfortunately.
Matsumoto - Complimentary guy at best.
Kaspar - Extreme long shot.
Rinaldo - No NHL future.
Kalsinki - 4th liner
Legein - Wild-card.

D-Men:

Marshall - Probably a No.5 ceiling and keep in mind, while I like the guy, we traded away a 3rd to go up and get him.
Bourdon - Still a ways to go, wild-card.
Lehtivuori - Unknown at this point.
Bodrov - Going backwards fast.
Bartulis - Not positive he has an NHL future.

Goalies:

Ericsson - Interesting, but unproven
Morrison - See above
DeSerres - On his way to being a bust.

Perhaps some of these trades have been justified, but now that JVR and Giroux are with the big club, we have no good prospects. I don't think there's a single guy on that list I'd rate above a 7.0C to use HF terms.

In the next 2 drafts, we'll be missing a 1st, both 2nds, and a 3rd as well. You have to have young studs to remain competitive in the NHL. I seriously worry about this team in 4 years when we aren't going to be able to afford JVR, Carter, Richie, Giroux, and Briere at the salaries and they have already or are going to command because the odds are fairly strong that we simply won't be able to keep everyone because of the cap and then not have anyone to replace them.

Our prospect pool right now is extremely underwhelming and due to some moronic moves by Homer (I'd be feeling better with both 2nds right now), we aren't going to have the picks to replenish it.

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Old
10-28-2009, 06:39 PM
  #49
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I still like Holmgren. Stevens not so much.

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Old
10-28-2009, 06:47 PM
  #50
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Our prospect pool right now is extremely underwhelming and due to some moronic moves by Homer (I'd be feeling better with both 2nds right now), we aren't going to have the picks to replenish it.
Clearly the Flyers are better having the picks than somebody else, but 2nd overall picks aren't exactly gold either. The percentage of 2nd round picks that turn into NHL regulars isn't all that impressive.

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