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Fire Paul Holmgren Thread (and related front office screwups) - 09/10 Edition

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Old
10-29-2009, 01:34 AM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
I certainly hope Holmgren doesn't think he's going to get claimed...of course, he didn't think Nolan Baumgartener was going to get claimed either.
I'm sure that the old-school GMs think that it's bad form to do so but, well, the rules are the rules.

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10-29-2009, 02:24 AM
  #77
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I really don't agree with some of those things on the list in the first post.

1) The Good is definitely missing trading for Alberts early last season. Alberts was a very good pickup and solid phyiscal defenseman all year long.
2) "Not bringin in a 3rd line C". Um, Richards, Carter, Briere, Giroux, Pyörälä, Powe, Betts. How many more centers do you want?
3) "Not bringin in someone who could win a faceoff". Again, Blair Betts! It sucks that Betts got injured early, but you can't fault Homer for that.

There are also quite a number oddities on that list. For one I wonder how you expected to retain Upshall with the cap we already have, or managed the Cap better.
Also, the Eminger Trade resulted in the Carle Trade.
I am also questioning what Glen Metropolit and Ossi Vaananen have done since we waived them, or how there would be space for them on the current roster.
I also have no clue how or why you are constantly separating one part of a deal from another. Trading away the high draft picks is what resulted in getting Pronger.
Also, Holmgren had practically no choice but to let Biron walk and I would chalk it up on Homer's good side that he didn't even attempt to satisfy the insane demands of Marty and his agent.



I am happy with Holmgren managing the team. What I am not happy with is him not firing Stevens already. I don't think Holmgren should be fired for that but someone has to get rid of Stevens quick and I hope either Snider, Clarke or Luukko will put some pressure on it to do so.
Recalling Jones is also a dumb move in my opinion but let's see what happens.

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Old
10-29-2009, 02:31 AM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panayiotis View Post
i dont think homer is on his own here. Most of thses moves have Clarke and Homers finger prints all over them. For Snider to go on Eskin and anounce Pronger is a top two or three d-man in the league is laughable. Signing a average goalie Emry and a slow 36 year old defenseman does not vault the flyers over the pens. Homer is just a patsie...Clarke and Snider are behind the big moves.
If you think that not adding Chris Pronger to your hockey club doesnt make you better then you are kidding yourself.

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10-29-2009, 04:42 AM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chaosof99 View Post
1) The Good is definitely missing trading for Alberts early last season. Alberts was a very good pickup and solid phyiscal defenseman all year long.
Alberts was pretty terrible at times and was one of the two defensemen brought in as injury replacements who ****ed the cap over for the year. I wouldn't classify it as a "good" trade because who couldn't throw a 4th round pick at the Bruins for an overpaid 6th defenseman that may or may not give the other team two goals every game? It's more of a "meh" trade.

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Originally Posted by chaosof99 View Post
2) "Not bringin in a 3rd line C". Um, Richards, Carter, Briere, Giroux, Pyörälä, Powe, Betts. How many more centers do you want?
Briere is no longer a centre, Carter, Richards, and Giroux all deserve more than playing third line centre, Pyorala was a complete unknown and to this point is not a capable third line centre (same goes for Powe), and Betts is a perfect fourth line centre. None of these guys are genuine third line centres in the NHL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chaosof99 View Post
3) "Not bringin in someone who could win a faceoff". Again, Blair Betts! It sucks that Betts got injured early, but you can't fault Homer for that.
Betts has never been that great at faceoffs. He's hovered at 50% the last few years. That's not exactly faceoff specialist numbers.

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Originally Posted by chaosof99 View Post
For one I wonder how you expected to retain Upshall with the cap we already have, or managed the Cap better.
Don't remember the OP saying anything about retaining Upshall. He was traded to create cap room - which wasn't accomplished given that we had to play two amateur try-out players while competing for home ice because there wasn't enough cap space to call up real replacements. Also, the trade was major overpayment...I mean really major. Upshall straight up for Carcillo is a win for the Coyotes, nevermind tossing in a 2nd rounder for good measure - especially when our prospect pool is dwindling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chaosof99 View Post
Also, the Eminger Trade resulted in the Carle Trade.
The Eminger trade was a first round pick thrown away. Are you seriously saying that's ok? Holmgren then had to fix his mistake by trading another first round pick (Downie) for Carle, who played rather poorly last year and completely ****ed over the cap. Only now is it looking like a better deal and that may just be because Carle has Pronger babysitting him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chaosof99 View Post
I am also questioning what Glen Metropolit and Ossi Vaananen have done since we waived them, or how there would be space for them on the current roster.
Last I checked Metro is still playing for the Canadiens and not too badly in the couple games I've seen. But who the **** cares what they're doing now? Last year they were solid depth players we needed. If home-ice is on the line, would you rather have Vaananen on the ice or David ****ing Sloane?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chaosof99 View Post
Also, Holmgren had practically no choice but to let Biron walk and I would chalk it up on Homer's good side that he didn't even attempt to satisfy the insane demands of Marty and his agent.
Having no patience and signing Emery immediately (thus letting Biron walk) has cast more uncertainty over the goaltending situation long-term.

We're getting what we paid for there. Emery is providing below-average starting goaltending for below-average starting money. Biron gave us average to above-average starting goaltending for average starting money and deservedly earned a bit of a raise. His demands would've dropped the longer Holmgren waited.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chaosof99 View Post
I am happy with Holmgren managing the team. What I am not happy with is him not firing Stevens already. I don't think Holmgren should be fired for that but someone has to get rid of Stevens quick and I hope either Snider, Clarke or Luukko will put some pressure on it to do so.
Recalling Jones is also a dumb move in my opinion but let's see what happens.
You can't be happy with someone who is responsible for two major issues that will ruin this hockey team for the foreseeable future. Re-calling Jones and letting Stevens continue to coach in this league are not toss-up decisions that don't affect how you feel about the GM. Stevens has ****ed this team up for three years and the Jones thing will **** the cap for the year. Both are completely unacceptable. Those are decisions a good GM doesn't make. There's nothing to be happy with anymore. This club needs to start going deep in the playoffs this year and for the next couple years or the window will close. Paying Randy Jones to play for someone else and allowing that stunned **** to pretend to coach will not accomplish the goal of winning the Cup. Homer needs to make the right moves starting now or get the **** out of town.

(sorry for all the cursing - not directed at you, just anger for the situation in general)

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10-29-2009, 05:36 AM
  #80
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I think Holmgren just needs some more experience. I like his go-for-it type attitude, and he has certainly had his share of quality moves, but I think with some more experience we'll all be happy to call him our GM.

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Old
10-29-2009, 05:48 AM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chaosof99 View Post
I really don't agree with some of those things on the list in the first post.

1) The Good is definitely missing trading for Alberts early last season. Alberts was a very good pickup and solid phyiscal defenseman all year long.
2) "Not bringin in a 3rd line C". Um, Richards, Carter, Briere, Giroux, Pyörälä, Powe, Betts. How many more centers do you want?
3) "Not bringin in someone who could win a faceoff". Again, Blair Betts! It sucks that Betts got injured early, but you can't fault Homer for that.

There are also quite a number oddities on that list. For one I wonder how you expected to retain Upshall with the cap we already have, or managed the Cap better.
Also, the Eminger Trade resulted in the Carle Trade.
I am also questioning what Glen Metropolit and Ossi Vaananen have done since we waived them, or how there would be space for them on the current roster.
I also have no clue how or why you are constantly separating one part of a deal from another. Trading away the high draft picks is what resulted in getting Pronger.
Also, Holmgren had practically no choice but to let Biron walk and I would chalk it up on Homer's good side that he didn't even attempt to satisfy the insane demands of Marty and his agent.



I am happy with Holmgren managing the team. What I am not happy with is him not firing Stevens already. I don't think Holmgren should be fired for that but someone has to get rid of Stevens quick and I hope either Snider, Clarke or Luukko will put some pressure on it to do so.
Recalling Jones is also a dumb move in my opinion but let's see what happens.
I agree with much of this. Homer is not great at cap management but I think overall he has done decently and has tried to make the team better. I do disagree with his decision to bring up Jones, and hope it is just a temporary one, as I'd rather see OKT and Syvret get to play as a pair till Parent comes back. I don't think Jones is that terrible but I just want the two to get time to play.

I agree with what Chris said in the Fire Stevens thread in that I wouldn't mind Stevens being an assistant coach if he could do that without getting in the way of a new coach. I do however think you guys are being a bit too hard on Stevens. People come to these boards to talk about hockey, so they are going to take whatever there is to talk about and talk about it extensively, especially when its negative, because really its far more interesting to have a talk about negatives and what should be changed rather than positives because singing praises gets boring after a while. People criticize Stevens for never really pointing out what the team did wrong and saying "this needs to change now! That was piss poor effort". I agree it does get annoying and he really doesn't ever seem to show emotion, but we don't know what goes on in the locker room, though granted I imagine even in the locker room he isn't very outspoken and doesn't really call people out ever. Also you have to remember in general (there are exceptions I'm sure) but public criticism of any one particular persons play in general though interesting and or satisfying to us, the fans, doesn't really help anyone in the organization. However, it would be nice if he criticized the team as a whole every once in a while. I would like Stevens to be demoted or change the way he does things (but I don't see that happening), and if he was fired I'd feel bad for him but I wouldn't be upset, as long as we have someone better to replace him with.

edit: Also not only as Homer tried to make the team, better I feel like the players he has brought in specifically Pronger, Betts, Laperriere. and Pyorala should have made the team better. With Pronger and Betts it seems that he tried to address specific problems that the team had (problems that people here recognized). The Pronger trade brought in more leadership from a man who from what I can tell from the post game interviews is very serious about winning and is a good leader, this also in theory could have helped limit the time Timonen had to play every night, furthermore in theory it gave us one of the top defenses in the league if our other players played up to their potential. The acquisition of Betts would help a team that dealt with a lot of PKs by relieving some of the strain placed on our top offensive players by having to play in these situations, so they would have more left in the tank come the playoffs. Pyorala doesn't specifically answer any issues we had but he is clearly a very good player despite that he doesn't seem to be a point producer. I wasn't sure about Lappy, when we got him but now I know he is a solid bottom six player, and he could also add to the toughness of the team, that in theory we should have given the amount of guys we have that can fight and hit. Emery was more of a lateral move though I think he might be a bit better than Biron, though it seems he is better at playing the puck. I don't like that we signed Boucher to a two year deal, but its cheap and I haven't really seen him play so maybe he will be a good back up, though for some reason I'd prefer Backlund become our backup if he can do well in the AHL, and I feel like if he does, and he can't get a new contract and play for us as in the NHL level after this year he'll go back to Europe, but Boucher is in the way of that happening if Backlund does prove to be good enough. I would've preferred Niitty stay but as mentioned by someone Homer probably felt his hips were to much of an issue, which is understandable though it seems he's been playing well so far this season.


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Old
10-29-2009, 06:09 AM
  #82
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Quote:
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Clarke didn't even know Giroux's name when he picked him, so I strongly doubt he was that involved in the draft process.

And I mean, look at the prospect pool now.

Forwards:

Maroon - Huge wild-card.
Nodl - Done nothing but regress unfortunately.
Matsumoto - Complimentary guy at best.
Kaspar - Extreme long shot.
Rinaldo - No NHL future.
Kalsinki - 4th liner
Legein - Wild-card.

D-Men:

Marshall - Probably a No.5 ceiling and keep in mind, while I like the guy, we traded away a 3rd to go up and get him.
Bourdon - Still a ways to go, wild-card.
Lehtivuori - Unknown at this point.
Bodrov - Going backwards fast.
Bartulis - Not positive he has an NHL future.

Goalies:

Ericsson - Interesting, but unproven
Morrison - See above
DeSerres - On his way to being a bust.

Perhaps some of these trades have been justified, but now that JVR and Giroux are with the big club, we have no good prospects. I don't think there's a single guy on that list I'd rate above a 7.0C to use HF terms.

In the next 2 drafts, we'll be missing a 1st, both 2nds, and a 3rd as well. You have to have young studs to remain competitive in the NHL. I seriously worry about this team in 4 years when we aren't going to be able to afford JVR, Carter, Richie, Giroux, and Briere at the salaries and they have already or are going to command because the odds are fairly strong that we simply won't be able to keep everyone because of the cap and then not have anyone to replace them.

Our prospect pool right now is extremely underwhelming and due to some moronic moves by Homer (I'd be feeling better with both 2nds right now), we aren't going to have the picks to replenish it.
I think you are a little tough on our prospects, particularly Marshall.

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Old
10-29-2009, 06:41 AM
  #83
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This has the potential to be the most tedious thread in HFBoard history.

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Old
10-29-2009, 06:43 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Orange Crush 89 View Post
After the Yanks are spanked could we get the Phillies management to give the Flyers' some tips on how to do things, please?
The Flyers already know. Everyone knows.

You need your top draft picks to grow into top players. The Phils' have. The Flyers' have not.

BIG difference.

Cool avatar, by the way.

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10-29-2009, 11:10 AM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JXC View Post
The Flyers already know. Everyone knows.

You need your top draft picks to grow into top players. The Phils' have. The Flyers' have not.

BIG difference.

Cool avatar, by the way.

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Old
10-29-2009, 11:27 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by JXC View Post
The Flyers already know. Everyone knows.

You need your top draft picks to grow into top players. The Phils' have. The Flyers' have not.

BIG difference.

Cool avatar, by the way.
5 of the top 7 Flyers' forwards are draft picks.... three of those players are widely considered top players and the other two are well on their way.

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10-29-2009, 11:27 AM
  #87
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The Flyers top draft picks haven't grown into top players?

Gagne, 40 goal scorer.
Carter, 40 goal scorer.
Richards, Selke finalist, PPG player.
Giroux, looks like a PPG player in the making.
JVR, looks great so far.
Joni Pitkanen, led to us ultimately having Pronger.
Justin Williams, a very good player who was traded for Markov which almost led to a Cup final appearance.

To suggest that the Flyers haven't been drafting very good players with consistency is completely asinine. And that's only 1st round picks there.

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10-29-2009, 11:33 AM
  #88
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I would love anyone to defend to me that Paul Holmgren knows what the hell he is doing at this point. This is two years in a row he has completely butchered the salary cap...last year it was in an active effort to improve the team, misguided but the idea is understandable. This...putting $1.375M on the cap for nothing...is the dumbest friggin thing I've witnessed in sports--and I'm a Redskins fan, I know dumb management when I see it at this point.

Paul Holmgren, you are an ***hole sir.

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10-29-2009, 11:34 AM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
The Flyers top draft picks haven't grown into top players?

Gagne, 40 goal scorer.
Carter, 40 goal scorer.
Richards, Selke finalist, PPG player.
Giroux, looks like a PPG player in the making.
JVR, looks great so far.
Joni Pitkanen, led to us ultimately having Pronger.
Justin Williams, a very good player who was traded for Markov which almost led to a Cup final appearance.

To suggest that the Flyers haven't been drafting very good players with consistency is completely asinine. And that's only 1st round picks there.
Then again, we never
have a 2nd rounder, and have pretty much done squat in the later rounds. We've done well in the 1st, but Homer has traded most of the recent ones away, and the prospect cupboard, once JVR, Giroux and Parent come off the books, looks like maybe Marshall and/or Bourdon and Maroon, then what?

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10-29-2009, 11:35 AM
  #90
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So now we have the pleasure of adding half of Jones' salary for this year. What if Emery gets injured for a couple of weeks and Boucher becomes our #1 goalie. We really need a solid backup and there's nothing we can do except make a trade for one and they'd screw us over like the Yotes did in the Upshall trade. Homer just doesn't seem to get it!

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10-29-2009, 11:35 AM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanuckistanFlyerfan View Post
Then again, we never
have a 2nd rounder, and have pretty much done squat in the later rounds. We've done well in the 1st, but Homer has traded most of the recent ones away, and the prospect cupboard, once JVR, Giroux and Parent come off the books, looks like maybe Marshall and/or Bourdon and Maroon, then what?
Look, I think we need to hold onto more picks...but most teams in the league WISH they had turned that many 1st rounders into high level talent. That's without mentioning Sbisa, who showed enough to get us Pronger.

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10-29-2009, 11:36 AM
  #92
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So now we have the pleasure of adding half of Jones' salary for this year. What if Emery gets injured for a couple of weeks and Boucher becomes our #1 goalie. We really need a solid backup and there's nothing we can do except make a trade for one and they'd screw us over like the Yotes did in the Upshall trade. Homer just doesn't seem to get it!
We are ****ed, and it was obvious that we were going to get ****ed.

If the media doesn't GRILL Paul Holmgren over this decision, they all need to be fired too. He needs to be held accountable for his stupidity.

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10-29-2009, 11:40 AM
  #93
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Randy Jones owes the Flyers a big ****ing thank you card. I get wanting to take care of your employee's (i.e. getting him out of the AHL), but not potentially at the expense of your team. That's what just happened. Holmgren just did Randy Jones a favor.

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10-29-2009, 11:40 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
I would love anyone to defend to me that Paul Holmgren knows what the hell he is doing at this point. This is two years in a row he has completely butchered the salary cap...last year it was in an active effort to improve the team, misguided but the idea is understandable. This...putting $1.375M on the cap for nothing...is the dumbest friggin thing I've witnessed in sports--and I'm a Redskins fan, I know dumb management when I see it at this point.

Paul Holmgren, you are an ***hole sir.
I'd like to add an additional **** you Holmgrem.

**** you Holmgrem.

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10-29-2009, 11:56 AM
  #95
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FAIL

Holmer -Hey Randy, I ****ed up, we will pay you 2.8 million to play in the AHL,,,

Jones - Na, I would rather still get my 2.8 mill ( half paid by you and ****ing up your salary cap) and I would like to winter in California

Holmer - Sounds good to me buddy !

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10-29-2009, 12:11 PM
  #96
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Bill Meltzer should walk into the next press conference, pull out his wang, and say, "Yeah, this is about all I can do that makes sense anymore. **** you, Homer. **** you."

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10-29-2009, 12:13 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
I figured it was time for a separate thread and Bennyflyers also posted something similar in the Stevens thread, the Jones thing was kind of the last straw for me personally and it's useful to separate GM and coaching discussion, it's not directly Stevens' fault that we don't have a guy who can win an FO.

Paul Holmgren's resume:

The Good
Signing Kimmo
Signing Hartnell
Coburn Trade
Drafting JVR
Forsberg Trade
Pronger Trade
Legein Trade
Biron Trade and Signing
Carle Trade
Umberger for Sbisa
Signing Ossi

The Bad
Vandermeer Trade
Modry Trade
Eminger Trade
Gauthier Trade (we dealt a 2nd with him, why not keep him in the AHL?)
Upshall Trade
Jones Contract
Metropolit waived
Not bringing in a 3rd line C
Not bringing in someone who could win a faceoff
Overall cap management
The Klotz pick (it has to be mentioned because it was just so, so bad).
Trading away all of our high picks for 3 drafts in a row.
Recalling Jones.
Waiving Ossi.

The Undecided
Briere contract
Pronger contract
Bringing in Emery, letting Biron go.
Not trading for a decent goalie prospect

I'm probably missing a few moves, but that's the basic resume. So how do you feel? Has Holmgren resurrected the franchise from the 06-07 hell or has he developed a team using poor cap management that has had the same fundamental flaws for the last 2 years?
I think he is in over his head personally.....Of the good moves up there, Kimmo and Hartnell were no brainers, any GM can through a boatload of money at the two best FA's in the market at their roles (Offensive D and power forward) The Forsberg trade was nice, but lets face it, he was trading Peter Forsberg. The rest, fine.

The Pronger trade is a huge chance taken....If we win a cup in the next two seasons, fine. If we dont, and we start losing guys like Gagne, Carter, Giroux, Hartnell, Briere, etc. because we cant afford them, than no. Neutral on this one at this point.

As for the bad moves, none of them are significant independently, however, its is typically the "small moves" that separate the winners from the losers. Drafting guys in the top 5, and signing the top FAs can pretty much be done by any GM remotely sniffing the NHL. Its the GM's that can fill in the other pieces (including the right man behind the bench) that make the difference.

Stevens and Homer took over a team almost 4 seasons ago. While that first year was a disaster of epic proportions, we were building towards something the following year....a team not too unlike the Phillies....A bunch of guys that developed together, liked each other and wanted to win for each other. Some necessary moves, and other stupid moves have now driven us backwards from that point, and we havent improved in areas where we clearly need improvement.

Homer = Fail in my opinion. Along with his butt buddy Stevens.

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Old
10-29-2009, 01:10 PM
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Paul Holmgren's resume:

The Good
Pronger Trade
Actually, the Pronger trade could be considered one of Holmgren's worst trades. Bob Murray, the Anaheim GM, said that Holmgren was only in competition with himself and that Holmgren increased the offer considerably when Murray wouldn't give him a decision. The initial trade offer was Lupul and the Flyers 1st in 09. When Murray couldn't decide, that's when Holmgren went nuts and offered Sbisa plus an additional first and a 3rd. It was the worst case of overbidding against one's self, not to mention that Holmgren really sold the farm to acquire a player who's 35 years of age and is at the age when most defensemen begin their downward descent. If Holmgren would have shown some patience, the Flyers could have had Pronger for Lupul and a 1st once Murray received confirmation that Niedermeyer was going to re-sign.

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10-29-2009, 01:13 PM
  #99
BobbyClarkeFan16
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Originally Posted by JXC View Post
The Flyers already know. Everyone knows.

You need your top draft picks to grow into top players. The Phils' have. The Flyers' have not.

BIG difference.

Cool avatar, by the way.
Your idiocy continues to shine through. Honestly, stop while you're ahead. You've been proven wrong that the Flyers top draft picks do work out. The problem has been with later round picks (although Maroon, Laliberte, Kalinski, Matsumoto might just work if given an opportunity)

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10-29-2009, 02:14 PM
  #100
BillyShoe1721
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The guy is a ****ing moron

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