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Why play in the Dub?

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11-29-2004, 12:55 AM
  #1
loudi94
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Why play in the Dub?

Cruisin through the BCHL website/teams and it's quite impressive how many players are getting full ride scholarships to the NCAA. I realize that a WHL player is eligible for a Canadian University tuition for every year played, but does that compare? Considering the odds of making the NHL, would it be in the best interests of a bright kid to forego playing major junior and take the "A" hockey route?

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11-29-2004, 01:04 AM
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I would say the goal of most of the players in the Dub is to eventually play in the NHL. There are loads of players drafted out of the WHL each year. If I wanted to go to the show, I'd play in the Dub.


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11-29-2004, 01:45 AM
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Some would argue that for education purposes, the WHL is the better deal. For every season you play in the league, you get a free year at a Canadian post-secondary institute. That is guaranteed and nothing can erase it.

A "full-ride" NCAA scholarship is not a 4-year contract. Players sign 4 separate one-year deals. If your team isn't happy with you after any given season in that span, they don't have to re-sign you, and you're SOL as far as going to school goes. With the WHL's deal, they pay for your tuition and books, so your education is guaranteed.

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11-30-2004, 02:40 PM
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Not to mention too that its a Canadian education. My friend has a full ride scholorship for football in the states and when hes done there and wants to move back to Canada he has to do another year of school so his degree will hold any water up here.

From a hockey standpoint, if you play in the dub you get more exposure and you play 72 games. In the NCAA you only play like 40 games with less exposure. Outside the NHL its astounding the number of CHL (WHL, QMJHL, OHL) players are playing in other pro leagues like the AHL or ECHL. All in all, Im all for the Dub.

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12-01-2004, 06:25 AM
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Good points Joe and Van, I would add one point to the dub side.

I had a discussion one night with a father that was anti WHL and pro NCAA, he said the coaching was better in NCAA and they had better quality practices. How many ex NHL players are coaching in the CHL? I said how do you know? The CHL is the best junior league in the world and they practice every day unless they have spent the whole night on the bus.

So I said to this father, the CHL teams are on the ice most weeks six days a week, how is NCAA better? Then all he was saying was the education! I have never heard anyone say American Colleges were better than Canadian Universities?

Lots of players have spent four to five years in the CHL then four to five years in Canadian Universites, how is that a wrong move?

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12-01-2004, 08:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Upchuck19

So I said to this father, the CHL teams are on the ice most weeks six days a week, how is NCAA better? Then all he was saying was the education! I have never heard anyone say American Colleges were better than Canadian Universities?

Lots of players have spent four to five years in the CHL then four to five years in Canadian Universites, how is that a wrong move?
That's a lot of time spent on hockey for a 17 year old. His school work has to suffer unless he's really smart.

I'm curious how many former players actually make good on their scholarships to Canadian universities.

I looked it up. The website claims 160+ scholarships a year. That's not a lot. Notice it doesn't say "new" scholarships each year. Thats 160 over the span of 5 years in most cases. So maybe 30-40 new scholarships a year. You also have a few years from your last game to use that scholarship, so that's a good thing.


Last edited by loudi94: 12-01-2004 at 08:39 AM.
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12-01-2004, 01:02 PM
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One thing most people don't realize... if you sign a pro contract (NHL, AHL, UHL, ECHL, CHL, Europe) you 100% forego your scholarship money from the Western Hockey League.

Whereas if you go the NCAA route, play 4 years there you get your degree AND developed as a hockey player.

In regards to scholarships being "one-year deals" this is correct. This usually only applies to low end players though. For example James Massen, had a TERRIBLE season at North Dakota last year but they kept him this year even though they were furious with his play. If he was a 4th liner on a 50% scholarship they'd cut him. Also, keep in mind when you see a player gets a scholarship out of the BCHL it doesn't HAVE to be a full ride and about 2 out of 5 times it isn't.

Now what happens if you go play Major Junior for a year then you get cut the following year and need to go back to Junior A? You've lost your NCAA eligiblity (unless you were still in high school in which case you have to sit out a year without organized hockey). How many kids are in the BCHL as 18, 19, and 20 years old after having short lived stints in the WHL and could've gotten an NCAA scholarship somewhere if they stuck it out?

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12-01-2004, 04:14 PM
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It really depends on the individual situation. Even for some sure-fire NHL prospects, the NCAA is the best route for them. And there are kids in the WHL who don't have much pro potential for whom the CHL scholarship deal is better - that money can be used at any Canadian school, so that's probably more attractive than a situation where your American scholarship choices are limited by who wants you to play for them. If you think you can get into Queen's or McGill, and the only US scholarship interest you have is from Wisconsin-Stevens Point, that's probably not a tough choice.

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12-01-2004, 04:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schlep Rock
Now what happens if you go play Major Junior for a year then you get cut the following year and need to go back to Junior A? You've lost your NCAA eligiblity (unless you were still in high school in which case you have to sit out a year without organized hockey). How many kids are in the BCHL as 18, 19, and 20 years old after having short lived stints in the WHL and could've gotten an NCAA scholarship somewhere if they stuck it out?
Not many. I've just spent several days going over the BCHL rosters for something I'm working on. I'd guesstimate that there are no more than 20 or so guys in the league with WHL experience (and that might be a little high.) A good percentage of them are goons, who wouldn't have any NCAA scholarship prospects, and I'd imagine that several of the others had no interest in the NCAA route either. Probably no more than a half-dozen guys in the BCHL who are regretting their WHL time because it cost them NCAA eligibility.

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12-01-2004, 06:04 PM
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The one distinct advantage the tier II/NCAA route has is that it gives players a longer window to develop their skills to earn a pro contract. Take a guy like Milan Gajic, who spent 4 years in the BCHL and is now in his 4th year at Michigan. At age 24, he still has the 'prospect' tag. Had he been forced to turn pro at age 20, he wouldn't have been ready for the AHL, and would have been flushed out the bottom end of minor pro and forgotten. But the extra three years of development completely changes things.

On the other hand, a guy like Ty Morris, who forfeited a scholorship to Denver (?) to join the Giants, is already an overage washout at age 20. One mediocre season in the WHL was enough for Vancouver to release him and his pro prospects are pretty much over ... had he stayed the college route, he'd still have 2 1/2 years to continue evolving his game before the Canucks had to make a decision on him.

If you're a middling prospect, having a few extra years to develop your game before turning pro can be a huge advantage. Not that that applies for all players, and not that there aren't big positives about the WHL route. There are solid arguments both ways, and that's why it's such a tough decision for so many players.

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12-02-2004, 04:52 AM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schlep Rock
One thing most people don't realize... if you sign a pro contract (NHL, AHL, UHL, ECHL, CHL, Europe) you 100% forego your scholarship money from the Western Hockey League.
You can play one year of pro hockey and still take the schollership from a CHL team.

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12-02-2004, 11:38 AM
  #12
Schlep Rock
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Upchuck19
You can play one year of pro hockey and still take the schollership from a CHL team.
Wrong...
http://www.whl.ca/education/

See "WHL Scholarship Information"

It says right there provided a player does not sign an NHL, AHL, or European contract (it also covers ECHL, CHL, and UHL).

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12-02-2004, 11:40 AM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lard_Lad
Not many. I've just spent several days going over the BCHL rosters for something I'm working on. I'd guesstimate that there are no more than 20 or so guys in the league with WHL experience (and that might be a little high.) A good percentage of them are goons, who wouldn't have any NCAA scholarship prospects, and I'd imagine that several of the others had no interest in the NCAA route either. Probably no more than a half-dozen guys in the BCHL who are regretting their WHL time because it cost them NCAA eligibility.
Let me rephrase a bit...

Either played in a WHL game or attended an EXTENDED camp thus losing his NCAA eligiblity.

Look at rosters in the AJHL as well for older kids... there are a ton with WHL experience or no NCAA eligiblity.

Fact remains, you go WHL... you limit your options unless you are a Brule or Getzlaf or Ladd who will stay in the dub.

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12-02-2004, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schlep Rock
Wrong...
http://www.whl.ca/education/

See "WHL Scholarship Information"

It says right there provided a player does not sign an NHL, AHL, or European contract (it also covers ECHL, CHL, and UHL).
You have until Christmas to decide. Many players do that, they'll play in minor-pro until Christmas and if they don't like they way things are going they'll join up with a CIS team. I can think of many examples of players who did that.

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12-03-2004, 06:45 AM
  #15
Upchuck19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goteam
You have until Christmas to decide. Many players do that, they'll play in minor-pro until Christmas and if they don't like they way things are going they'll join up with a CIS team. I can think of many examples of players who did that.
Maybe Schlep is right, look at the date of that artical January 2004, maybe it changed? I remember Jason Delurme came back after half a year in pro hockey and went to UBC for the rest of the year. He never went back to University after that, but he did go. And a couple years ago Bart Rushmer played a full year in the ECHL, spent the summer in Kelowna and said he might go to U of Letbridge. Last minute thing cancelled it, so who knows maybe there is unwriten rules?

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12-03-2004, 07:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Upchuck19
Maybe Schlep is right, look at the date of that artical January 2004, maybe it changed? I remember Jason Delurme came back after half a year in pro hockey and went to UBC for the rest of the year. He never went back to University after that, but he did go. And a couple years ago Bart Rushmer played a full year in the ECHL, spent the summer in Kelowna and said he might go to U of Letbridge. Last minute thing cancelled it, so who knows maybe there is unwriten rules?
OFFICIALLY once a pro contract is signed the education package is out the window (no Christmas deadline, etc). But with the WHL competing more and more with the NCAA for Western kids, teams are bending the rules a little bit.

For example, Brule has a deal from the Giants saying he can take his education whenever he wants.

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12-03-2004, 08:22 AM
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loudi94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Upchuck19
Maybe Schlep is right, look at the date of that artical January 2004, maybe it changed? I remember Jason Delurme came back after half a year in pro hockey and went to UBC for the rest of the year. He never went back to University after that, but he did go. And a couple years ago Bart Rushmer played a full year in the ECHL, spent the summer in Kelowna and said he might go to U of Letbridge. Last minute thing cancelled it, so who knows maybe there is unwriten rules?

Maybe he couldn't get in..

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12-03-2004, 11:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Upchuck19
And a couple years ago Bart Rushmer played a full year in the ECHL, spent the summer in Kelowna and said he might go to U of Letbridge. Last minute thing cancelled it, so who knows maybe there is unwriten rules?
Bart's a good buddy of mine, he's at the University of New Brunswick right now......taking advantage of the WHL scholarship opportunity. In order for him to do this given that he played a year in the ECHL with Columbus, he had to redshirt for a year with the Reds, before he could start up with the team - this year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schlep Rock
OFFICIALLY once a pro contract is signed the education package is out the window (no Christmas deadline, etc). But with the WHL competing more and more with the NCAA for Western kids, teams are bending the rules a little bit.
I am almost absolutely convinced that if a player quits by Christmas, they can come back for the rest of the year, on the scholarship.

Examples
(I also know these guys):
Kevin Korol (Kelowna, Regina) - 1996-2002 --- Arkansas (ECHL) - Acadia (CIS) - Same year 2002-03
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p...id%5B%5D=29170

Chris Barr (Spokane) - 1999-2003 --- Florence, Trenton (ECHL) - U of S (CIS) - Same year 2003-04
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p...id%5B%5D=50614

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12-04-2004, 01:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schlep Rock
Fact remains, you go WHL... you limit your options unless you are a Brule or Getzlaf or Ladd who will stay in the dub.
And if you want to go Junior A/NCAA, your options can be even more limited unless you're a Bertram or Zajac or Chucko that every school wants. What if you play four years in the BCHL, and the only scholarship offer you get is from Bemidji State? If you had spent those four years in the WHL, you can go to whatever school you can get into academically, even if the tuition costs are in the Ivy League range. But in this case, the only free ride you can get is an average state school. Not such a great deal then.

Bottom line, it depends on the individual case. It's not reasonable to make blanket statements about either option.

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12-05-2004, 02:43 AM
  #20
Upchuck19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goteam
Bart's a good buddy of mine, he's at the University of New Brunswick right now......taking advantage of the WHL scholarship opportunity. In order for him to do this given that he played a year in the ECHL with Columbus, he had to redshirt for a year with the Reds, before he could start up with the team - this year.
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Bart worked for me spring and summer 03, real good guy. I wish the best for him!

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12-05-2004, 07:26 AM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schlep Rock
Wrong...
http://www.whl.ca/education/

See "WHL Scholarship Information"

It says right there provided a player does not sign an NHL, AHL, or European contract (it also covers ECHL, CHL, and UHL).

No, it does not cover the ECHL, CHL or UHL. Any CHL player can play up to one year in those leagues without jepordizing their school package. The OHL allows its players to spend up to 18 months before their education packages become void.

The CHL scholarship packages are much more flexible than the NCAA ones. In the NCAA, just having a pro team pay your expenses at their training camp would cause you to lose your NCAA eligibility.

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