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2009/10 - Lines Discussion - (ES/PP/PK) - Part II

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Old
10-26-2009, 08:53 PM
  #351
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Claude Giroux View Post
What the **** man...he couldn't just play with Richards and Hartnell?
Stevens seems to not like Giroux playing wing and rather him play center. Him and Maroon, I think, would click.

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10-26-2009, 10:02 PM
  #352
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Huge joke, Claude deserves more playing time with better pure goal scoring line-mates. Although I understand that Mika is not on this team to score and has shown some glimpses of offensive ability, I don't believe that he deserves to be on a scoring line. With Claude wasting away at even strength, why not just switch Pyorala and Giroux. I would not be totally opposed to a line of Carcillo-Pyorala/Powe-Asham eating up 10-15 min per night if the other two lines are creating opportunities at 20-23 min per night. Although that line looks like our predictions of our 4th line at the start of the year, it can be effective in the right circumstances.

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10-28-2009, 08:17 AM
  #353
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i hate that hes juggling the lines so drastically. what they need to do is integrate the guys we brought in and continue to develop chemistry. shuffling guys up and down is just going to create confusion but then the balancing of the lines becomes tricky as we dont have guys with the same skillsets in the same positions. ie gagne carter pyorala.

my lineup
hartnell carter briere
marroon richards pyorala
jvr giroux powe
carcillo lapi asham

depending on who gets healthy first id put gagne on girouxs line and move powe to the fourth. or if betts is back and gagne isnt put carcillo there and sit asham or rotate the two on whos hot

defensively i think we should be looking at new partners for kimo. whether its okt or parent and whoever sits could be determined by who has the best chemistry with coburn. but coby has so far shown little to deserve the second pairing spot hes getting. maybe dropping him down will light a fire in him to improve.


Last edited by captainpaxil: 10-28-2009 at 08:56 AM. Reason: inserted lineup
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10-29-2009, 08:16 AM
  #354
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Assuming Gagne is gone for a long time which he will be I'd like to go with 2 scoring lines and essentially 2 4th lines

Hartnell Carter Giroux

JVR Richards Pyorola- (Both richards and JVR played their best with Pyro on the right wing of their lines)

Carcillo Powe Asham (can maybe score a few but good energy guys)

Laliberte Betts Lappy - (I don't see a need for Maroon just yet. He wouldn't have scoring linemates at this point so leave him be. Laliberte deserves a call-up and wouldn't be problem on a 4th line.)

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10-29-2009, 08:34 AM
  #355
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jd2210 View Post
Assuming Gagne is gone for a long time which he will be I'd like to go with 2 scoring lines and essentially 2 4th lines

Hartnell Carter Giroux

JVR Richards Pyorola- (Both richards and JVR played their best with Pyro on the right wing of their lines)

Carcillo Powe Asham (can maybe score a few but good energy guys)

Laliberte Betts Lappy - (I don't see a need for Maroon just yet. He wouldn't have scoring linemates at this point so leave him be. Laliberte deserves a call-up and wouldn't be problem on a 4th line.)
Briere?

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10-29-2009, 09:06 AM
  #356
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Lines I like currently:

Hartnell - Richards - Giroux
JVR - Carter - Briere
Asham -Pyorala - Powe
Random Phantom - Betts - Lapperiere

Pronger - Carle
Timonen - Parent
Coburn - Syvret

That will be the best chance to succeed.

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10-29-2009, 12:22 PM
  #357
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Looks like those of you who want Coburn on the 3rd have been heard. Parent will play with Timonen when he returns, according to Tim P.

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10-29-2009, 01:35 PM
  #358
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Originally Posted by Wolfy View Post
Looks like those of you who want Coburn on the 3rd have been heard. Parent will play with Timonen when he returns, according to Tim P.
Cool. Timonen and Parent were good last year

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Old
10-30-2009, 11:33 AM
  #359
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The lines are definitely a pretty big issue right now. When you go through some games where your team is getting a ton of chances, but not executing nearly enough, the lines are just about the first thing you need to consider changing. You can't just sit through a few more losses hoping your luck is going to change. But at the same time, it's unreasonable to do as much in-game juggling as Stevens has done at times.

Amidst all of this line juggling, though, Stevens has kept JVR-Carter-Briere together virtually the entire time(How you could not put Gagne-Richards-Briere -who were unbelievable together early last year- back together during this rough stretch where you've tried a million other combos, is totally beyond me). But, admittedly there were times when I agreed with keeping JVR-Carter-Briere together, as they'd get a whole bunch of chances in a game or period, and you'd want to see more. But, at this point, screw that combo. It needs to go. For as well as Briere is playing, it's unacceptable for him to only have 7 pts right now, especially when he's playing with players as good as JVR and Carter. And Carter has only 4 goals, none of which I can remember being a particular result of great chemistry with Briere. You have to be happy with JVR's point totals, but the line just isn't working well enough, time to say goodbye.

And honestly, if we continue to struggle with some other combos in the next few games, I'd get radical and do this with the top two lines...

Hartnell-Richards-Carter
JVR-Giroux-Briere

Carter's our worst face-off man, and Carter and Richards have shown great chemistry and experienced a ton of success in their limited time playing together in 4 on 4 situations over the past couple years. Hartnell fits well too, no chance that line wouldn't be great. And they become the big shutdown line when needed for that role.

JVR-Giroux-Briere looked good together when they were together. Giroux is a good centerman, and that may be where he'll benefit the team most, whether you like him on the wing or not. I love everything about that line. I'm not concerned about their defense. Giroux and JVR are plenty responsible defensively, and with the renewed spark Briere has been playing with he can be counted on much more as well. Offensively, those guys all need guys like each other to really create the magic that each one is capable of creating...they all think similarly with their silly-ass playmaking, and all are capable goalscorers. That line is sure to produce a whole bunch of beautiful goals.

Do it up Stevens. To further support these moves...I'll also add that while Carter has improved his defensive game over the past couple years, and certainly has the size to be effective at center, he continues to not put in as much effort as I'd like or be anywhere near as physical as I'd like. Giroux, while obviously smaller, puts in just about all the effort you could hope for, and continues to surprise virtually game in and game out with his physicality.


edit: Oh yeah, the bottom six. For now, I make our current fourth line the third line. No reason to break up Carcillo-Pyorala-Powe right now...they've been great.

Carcillo-Pyorala-Powe
Laperriere-Betts-Asham

Actually, I'm not sure I decipher between which is the third or fourth line in the above scenario. I'd pretty much split time between them.

And if those lines needed to be changed up...

Laperriere-Pyorala-Asham
Carcillo-Betts-Powe

Then I would call them third and fourth, and it would reflect in the icetime.


Last edited by claude boivin lives: 10-30-2009 at 11:49 AM.
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Old
10-30-2009, 11:47 AM
  #360
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jd2210 View Post
Assuming Gagne is gone for a long time which he will be I'd like to go with 2 scoring lines and essentially 2 4th lines

Hartnell Carter Giroux

JVR Richards Pyorola- (Both richards and JVR played their best with Pyro on the right wing of their lines)

Carcillo Powe Asham (can maybe score a few but good energy guys)

Laliberte Betts Lappy - (I don't see a need for Maroon just yet. He wouldn't have scoring linemates at this point so leave him be. Laliberte deserves a call-up and wouldn't be problem on a 4th line.)
Prophetic, considering today's Briere news.

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10-30-2009, 11:49 AM
  #361
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Quote:
Originally Posted by claude boivin lives View Post
The lines are definitely a pretty big issue right now. When you go through some games where your team is getting a ton of chances, but not executing nearly enough, the lines are just about the first thing you need to consider changing. You can't just sit through a few more losses hoping your luck is going to change. But at the same time, it's unreasonable to do as much in-game juggling as Stevens has done at times.

Amidst all of this line juggling, though, Stevens has kept JVR-Carter-Briere together virtually the entire time(How you could not put Gagne-Richards-Briere -who were unbelievable together early last year- back together during this rough stretch where you've tried a million other combos, is totally beyond me). But, admittedly there were times when I agreed with keeping JVR-Carter-Briere together, as they'd get a whole bunch of chances in a game or period, and you'd want to see more. But, at this point, screw that combo. It needs to go. For as well as Briere is playing, it's unacceptable for him to only have 7 pts right now, especially when he's playing with players as good as JVR and Carter. And Carter has only 4 goals, none of which I can remember being a particular result of great chemistry with Briere. You have to be happy with JVR's point totals, but the line just isn't working well enough, time to say goodbye.

And honestly, if we continue to struggle with some other combos in the next few games, I'd get radical and do this with the top two lines...

Hartnell-Richards-Carter
JVR-Giroux-Briere

Carter's our worst face-off man, and Carter and Richards have shown great chemistry and experienced a ton of success in their limited time playing together in 4 on 4 situations over the past couple years. Hartnell fits well too, no chance that line wouldn't be great. And they become the big shutdown line when needed for that role.

JVR-Giroux-Briere looked good together when they were together. Giroux is a good centerman, and that may be where he'll benefit the team most, whether you like him on the wing or not. I love everything about that line. I'm not concerned about their defense. Giroux and JVR are plenty responsible defensively, and with the renewed spark Briere has been playing with he can be counted on much more as well. Offensively, those guys all need guys like each other to really create the magic that each one is capable of creating...they all think similarly with their silly-ass playmaking, and all are capable goalscorers. That line is sure to produce a whole bunch of beautiful goals.

Do it up Stevens. To further support these moves...I'll also add that while Carter has improved his defensive game over the past couple years, and certainly has the size to be effective at center, he continues to not put in as much effort as I'd like or be anywhere near as physical as I'd like. Giroux, while obviously smaller, puts in just about all the effort you could hope for, and continues to surprise virtually game in and game out with his physicality.
I was just about to say I'd like that line

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10-30-2009, 11:54 AM
  #362
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Originally Posted by Claude Giroux View Post
I was just about to say I'd like that line
They did play a lot of the preseason together.

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10-30-2009, 11:56 AM
  #363
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Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
Prophetic, considering today's Briere news.
Sounds like jd2210 went Tonya Harding on Briere!

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10-30-2009, 05:47 PM
  #364
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Hmmmm. How did I know Laliberte would be called up and Briere would be out of the line-up? Makes you wonder doesn't it, makes you wonder.

You'd think I'd use my powers to win the lottery, but nope, I use them to impress people on a hockey forum and predict lineups.

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10-31-2009, 10:52 AM
  #365
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Lack of forward depth biting

Donno if its the style of game Philly plays, but the team has always had a big problem with top forwards and injuries.. going back to Lindros, continuing with Forsberg and Primeau.

Now with Gags and possibly Briere.

That's why Philly needs to have lots of offensive depth. Always. Cuz someone important's gonna get hurt bad. Always. Like death and taxes.

I apologize, I've been on this kick a while. But again, letting go of Prospal, Umberger, Knuble, Upshall, ... that's more than an entire forward line!

And not making an effort to re acquire Prospal this year... when the Rags got him for 1.5 .. and look how Vinny's tearing it up this year!

I know the caps' tight and everything, but is this poor player management? If Philly dumped Jones, surely they could have kept one of the above???

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10-31-2009, 11:33 AM
  #366
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I really would have liked if they had gone after Prospal after the Lightning bought him out. He was so underrated already and the Rangers picked him up for dirt cheap, an offer the Flyers could have easily matched.

The problem isn't really the lack of forward depth. We can still put two decent lines on the ice, even with Briere and Gagne out for the time being, and Gagne wasn't doing anything anyway. The problem is that the players on the team aren't producing. Pyörälä was a bit overhyped, but I think he can do a lot better than one point in ten games. Carter hasn't scored a goal in the last 6 games, Richards has been goalless in the last 5. Hartnell got two goals in 10 games and JVR has one in 8. Giroux also only has one in 10.

It borders on a miracle that our record is 5-4-1 and a large part of why we were able to manage was production from the bottom two lines and chips from the blue line, e.g. Pronger and Carle combining for 3 goals and 16 points in 10 games.

We need to get a whole lot better and the players need to wake the **** up.


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11-01-2009, 10:26 AM
  #367
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Originally Posted by chaosof99 View Post
I really would have liked if they had gone after Prospal after the Lightning bought him out. He was so underrated already and the Rangers picked him up for dirt cheap, an offer the Flyers could have easily matched.

The problem isn't really the lack of forward depth. We can still put two decent lines on the ice, even with Briere and Gagne out for the time being, and Gagne wasn't doing anything anyway. The problem is that the players on the team aren't producing. Pyörälä was a bit overhyped, but I think he can do a lot better than one point in ten games. Carter hasn't scored a goal in the last 6 games, Richards has been goalless in the last 5. Hartnell got two goals in 2 games and JVR has one in 8. Giroux also only has one in 10.

It borders on a miracle that our record is 5-4-1 and a large part of why we were able to manage was production from the bottom two lines and chips from the blue line, e.g. Pronger and Carle combining for 3 goals and 16 points in 10 games.

We need to get a whole lot better and the players need to wake the **** up.
Would have liked to see Prospal here as well, but from his brief tenure, it seems like he loathed being here. Not sure how that might have translated into his play.

Agree with the surprising lack of goals from the top lines, and seeing it written down like that, I'm surprised about the record as well. Some of these guys need to start putting GOOD shots at the net, I'm getting tired of Carter throwing it at the net from a 4 degree angle.

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11-02-2009, 10:40 AM
  #368
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Originally Posted by chaosof99 View Post
I really would have liked if they had gone after Prospal after the Lightning bought him out. He was so underrated already and the Rangers picked him up for dirt cheap, an offer the Flyers could have easily matched.

The problem isn't really the lack of forward depth. We can still put two decent lines on the ice, even with Briere and Gagne out for the time being, and Gagne wasn't doing anything anyway. The problem is that the players on the team aren't producing. Pyörälä was a bit overhyped, but I think he can do a lot better than one point in ten games. Carter hasn't scored a goal in the last 6 games, Richards has been goalless in the last 5. Hartnell got two goals in 10 games and JVR has one in 8. Giroux also only has one in 10.

It borders on a miracle that our record is 5-4-1 and a large part of why we were able to manage was production from the bottom two lines and chips from the blue line, e.g. Pronger and Carle combining for 3 goals and 16 points in 10 games.

We need to get a whole lot better and the players need to wake the **** up.
The reality is that Powe and Asham shouldn't outscoring Gagne and Giroux. I think in the last 6 games those 2 are outscoring just about the whole team and that can't happen. I love secondary scoring and those kind of guys can often be the diffference in a close game. But they should be the guys we are counting on. The top 6 guys in ice time need be scoring more period. You shouldn't have a situation at any time where an AHL callup comes into a game 10 games into the year and ties your top left winger in scoring in the first period. I don't see where any of the top 6 have played up to what they should this year. We don't even have one guy in the top 30 in scoring. Richards started out with a bang and tailed off, Carter couldn't care less, Hartnell is coming around but sure started weak. Giroux seem snake bit. Gagne was clearly playing hurt. Briere has been streaky. Thankfully the bottom 66 and the Pronger/Carle duo have wanted to win a few games.

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11-08-2009, 10:45 AM
  #369
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
They have been playing quite well of late.

I will reserve judgment on the fact that it shockingly materialized once Stevens was forced to go with a roster featuring two scoring lines and two checking lines.
Are you saying that putting Giroux with Carcillo and Powe isn't a good idea?

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11-08-2009, 10:50 AM
  #370
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Are you saying that putting Giroux with Carcillo and Powe isn't a good idea?
While the injuries need to stop...the lineup actually makes some amount of sense at the moment. You have bottom 6 guys contributing points and energy, and top lines making some plays. Perhaps we will learn from this and keep a sensible set of lines when bodies come back, but I won't hold my breath.

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11-08-2009, 10:51 AM
  #371
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Are you saying that putting Giroux with Carcillo and Powe isn't a good idea?
Once Briere and Gagne come back though we'll have the same problem as before. We'll have 7 top 6 forwards in Briere, Gagne, Richards, Carter, JVR, Giroux, and Hartnell. That means that one forward will literally be wasted on the third line and that the third line that we'll be using now will have to be broken up or moved to the 4th line.

I don't want to see JVR or Giroux being wasted on one of the lower lines, especially considering that they have been playing better then Gagne and arguably Carter/Richards.

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11-08-2009, 10:53 AM
  #372
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Stevens for Jack Adams, Betts for Hart, Emery for Vezina.

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11-08-2009, 11:03 AM
  #373
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Stevens for Jack Adams, Betts for Hart, Emery for Vezina.
To add to Laliberte for Calder and Carle for Norris?

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11-08-2009, 11:06 AM
  #374
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To add to Laliberte for Calder and Carle for Norris?
We might as well pencil in Carcillo for the Lady Byng...with his new found discipline and goal scoring abilities.

He should be a shoe-in to win, it'd be a travesty if he didn't.

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11-08-2009, 11:06 AM
  #375
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
Once Briere and Gagne come back though we'll have the same problem as before. We'll have 7 top 6 forwards in Briere, Gagne, Richards, Carter, JVR, Giroux, and Hartnell. That means that one forward will literally be wasted on the third line and that the third line that we'll be using now will have to be broken up or moved to the 4th line.

I don't want to see JVR or Giroux being wasted on one of the lower lines, especially considering that they have been playing better then Gagne and arguably Carter/Richards.
Wasted? They're playing in the NHL and contributing to a winning team...it's about winning games, not catering to individual players. I would have no problem with putting Gagne on the third line, but we simply are significantly better off with two elite scoring lines, and then true bottom 6 lines below them.

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