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O'Reilly sent to MIL, recall Olvecky

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Old
11-02-2009, 08:29 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by ThirdManIn View Post
Oh, by the way... if you're floored by Smithson's play because he has three goals, consider this:

Smithson has 3G and 0A for 3pts in 13 games.

Jean Pierre Dumont has 3G and 8A for 11pts in 9 games.
Weber 5G and 4A for 9pts in 13 games.
Hornqvist 3G and 5A for 8pts in 13 games (who you mentioned, and whom we are all impressed by)
Suter 2G and 5A for 7pts in 13 games
Arnott 3G and 2A for 5pts in 7 games
Sullivan 2G and 3A for 5pts in 13 games
Ward 1G and 3A for 4 pts in 11 games

And finally, David Legwand, who is tied for points with Jerred Smithson, with 0G and 3A for 3 pts in 13 games. Are we getting more bang for the buck with Smithers? Definitely. Has he been surprising? Of course. Do I expect him become a consistent points producer close to what Erat, Legwand, or Sullivan have shown they can be? hahaha

Am I happy with .500 hockey? Considering we've played Chicago three times, Dallas three times and twice in Dallas, Boston, and a Colorado team who was handed one of their three regulation losses by us and is currently sitting atop the conference we could be in a much worse position. Don't forget about Ottawa and Buffalo who aren't doing too bad in the East right now.

I am well aware that we didn't win all of the games I just mentioned, but we also didn't lose all of them. Save two blow outs in the middle of a six game skid and we haven't been embarrassed. We've allowed goals in bunches more than anyone would care to see, and we had an incredibly ugly win in Ottawa to pull us out of a slump. A win that came after two respectable outings.

Bottom line is you're right to be unhappy with Legwand and Erat. I don't think there's a person who considers him or herself a Predator fan who doesn't want them, and Sully, to produce more offensively. However, Legwand has been making the effort lately, and the rest of the team has been also. You're reading entirely too much unto a rather minor transaction between an NHL team and its AHL affiliate.
Thank you, and thats all I'm saying. I'm seeing no attempt by Trotz to straighten out these players, yet he's publicly giving the previously mentioned reasons for these young guys. This is nothing new from him, Young kids don't get the treatment the vets do. And I don't like it. I don't see it at all healthy to development or to getting vets to play better.

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11-02-2009, 08:35 PM
  #27
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I don't think there's a setting in the entire world where rookies get the same treatment as veterans. Even young stars will get different treatment than vets. Every job I've ever had I had to prove myself to the guys who had been there for years, sometimes decades, before I was even considered one of them. Even then I was treated differently by higher ups, and often times by the guys I worked with.

Trotz is rarely the coach to publicly call out his players, but he has done it. It's still a bit early to be talking to the newspaper about Legwand needing to step it up like he has in years past. Sometimes it's for the best that he's that way, and sometimes it makes me pull my hair out. I still think sending O'Reilly down was the right decision, and I don't think it was a move made to send a message to anyone.

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11-02-2009, 08:39 PM
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And now that I think of it on the subject of Smithson and his 3 goals. Trotz does reward him somewhat, I remember him getting a couple 3 line shifts. But ultimately he's still the same role. Which don't get me wrong I don't want him on the first or second line. But for some shifts it wouldn't bother me 1 bit if erat or leggy went the forth line and smithson moved up. Keep it this way? No, definatley not. I agree Smithson will not put up the numbers those guys should. But they haven't been either. Smithson is ver responsible defensively, so it's not gonna hurt us. I'd like to see Trotz show them that Smithson is playing above expectation...you aren't. So this is what happens. Instead of what we see with him sitting Jones or moving Santo etc.

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11-02-2009, 08:43 PM
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Originally Posted by ThirdManIn View Post
I don't think there's a setting in the entire world where rookies get the same treatment as veterans. Even young stars will get different treatment than vets. Every job I've ever had I had to prove myself to the guys who had been there for years, sometimes decades, before I was even considered one of them. Even then I was treated differently by higher ups, and often times by the guys I worked with.

Trotz is rarely the coach to publicly call out his players, but he has done it. It's still a bit early to be talking to the newspaper about Legwand needing to step it up like he has in years past. Sometimes it's for the best that he's that way, and sometimes it makes me pull my hair out. I still think sending O'Reilly down was the right decision, and I don't think it was a move made to send a message to anyone.
Maybe you're right. I don't wanna lose O'rielly either. I just wanted 1 more game while the team was starting to play better to see if he could do somthing.

Trotz did call out Santorelli when he first sent him down saying that his demotion was because he couldn't produce. And he called out Jones saying he was making mistakes, when everyone else was as well (even worse ones from what I remember). This demotion was actually just icing on the cake from the previous 2, that I disagreed with, and those probably blured my vision and made me less impartial when thinking about this one.

And yes they shouldn't get the exact treatment...but theres a huge difference. I look at other teams with young lines, and yeah they make mistakes...but it doesn't end up in a benching for a period. Just because they didn't get over the blue line once? Something like that.

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11-02-2009, 08:59 PM
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When you're the coach of a team in a league that is used to seeing coaching changes made after ten or fifteen games you start sweating after losing four in a row. Now add in two more losses in a streak (which has happened twice at the start of two seasons out of the past three), a fickle fan base that still needs to grow dramatically in the corporate sector, and missing the playoffs last year for the first time in five seasons. I know Poile seems to be the man with infinite, crippling patience and most people think Trotz won't be canned, but I'm sure Trotz sees it differently since it's his livelihood at stake.

He knows better than any of us what these vets are capable of, and he makes decisions on the ice time for rookies based on situations and performance. I'm not saying the man is dead on with all of those decisions, but it's a lot easier for us to second guess them than it is for him to make them. Sometimes you get lucky and have a roster with which you just can't seem to make a mistake. Usually, though, it's a gamble.

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11-02-2009, 09:10 PM
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When you're the coach of a team in a league that is used to seeing coaching changes made after ten or fifteen games you start sweating after losing four in a row. Now add in two more losses in a streak (which has happened twice at the start of two seasons out of the past three), a fickle fan base that still needs to grow dramatically in the corporate sector, and missing the playoffs last year for the first time in five seasons. I know Poile seems to be the man with infinite, crippling patience and most people think Trotz won't be canned, but I'm sure Trotz sees it differently since it's his livelihood at stake.

He knows better than any of us what these vets are capable of, and he makes decisions on the ice time for rookies based on situations and performance. I'm not saying the man is dead on with all of those decisions, but it's a lot easier for us to second guess them than it is for him to make them. Sometimes you get lucky and have a roster with which you just can't seem to make a mistake. Usually, though, it's a gamble.
Very true, it's alot easier after the fact to complain. It gets me as well thinking:
If we were winning those first games would these demotions have happened. If the vets and a couple others had season starts like we expected would Santo and Jones have been sent down? I have to think no. And that adds to it. But ultimately it feels better to complain about it after it's happened, or b*itch about a loss. I've walked out of the arena saying I'd never buy another ticket, come to hf and complain about trotz or some players and be back on ticket master that night getting a ticket for the next game.

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11-03-2009, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slanted View Post
Thank you, and thats all I'm saying. I'm seeing no attempt by Trotz to straighten out these players, yet he's publicly giving the previously mentioned reasons for these young guys. This is nothing new from him, Young kids don't get the treatment the vets do. And I don't like it. I don't see it at all healthy to development or to getting vets to play better.
The reason why the young kids don't get the same treatment as vets is because Vets have "been there and done that" for how many years now? Minimum of 5? These young kids have to learn the ropes. There is a REASON why vets have been in the League so long -- because they know what they are doing... Once the rooks learn that, then they will get the same treatment as the vets.

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11-05-2009, 09:51 AM
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The reason why the young kids don't get the same treatment as vets is because Vets have "been there and done that" for how many years now? Minimum of 5? These young kids have to learn the ropes. There is a REASON why vets have been in the League so long -- because they know what they are doing... Once the rooks learn that, then they will get the same treatment as the vets.
Yeah, this is how it works. But I'm just not buying it as a way to run the team. If anything when a vet makes a rookie mistake they should be come down on harder. And for the same reasons you've said, they should know better.

It's like the old business saying "The buck stops here", which was joked to be a plaque that sat on the CEO's desk. It meant no matter what went wrong it was never the CEO's fault. The CEO being the leader, probably could be considered a vet. This idea has completely changed and now is more "The buck starts here". I'd like that mentality on this team.

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11-05-2009, 10:38 AM
  #34
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Yeah, this is how it works. But I'm just not buying it as a way to run the team. If anything when a vet makes a rookie mistake they should be come down on harder. And for the same reasons you've said, they should know better.

It's like the old business saying "The buck stops here", which was joked to be a plaque that sat on the CEO's desk. It meant no matter what went wrong it was never the CEO's fault. The CEO being the leader, probably could be considered a vet. This idea has completely changed and now is more "The buck starts here". I'd like that mentality on this team.
Actually part of the way that you manage people is to do it on an individual basis. Some veterans can make a rookie mistake and will beat themselves up over it, so the coach doesn't have to point it out. Some don't pay as much attention and the coach has to make a point of it.

The more years a player has in the league, the more likely it is that they will recognize their error and work to correct it. A rookie on the other hand (even one who has been playing minor league hockey for years) would probably face new situations in the NHL (faster play, different results - think of what Trotz said about Wilson that Wilson was able to take shifts off in college because he was a dominant player but that there are no shifts you can take off in the NHL because a lot of people are at Wilson's level of talent). As a result, the coach would more likely make a point (even publically) to a player with less experience than with a veteran.

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11-05-2009, 11:21 AM
  #35
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Not to be too picky, but I would like to clarify something. "The Buck Stops Here", while I'm sure is on a fair amount of desks these days, was a sign Truman kept on his desk. It's in referencing "passing the buck", during which blame or responsibility is passed from one person to another. Being the president, the responsibility for a great many decisions fell on the desk of Truman, so it actually means the passing of said responsibility "stops here".

Anyway, lstcyr gets into the point I wanted to make a bit, but I'd like to go a little further. When a vet makes a rookie mistake they will notice it as soon as the coach does, if not before. They were once the rookie making the mistake and getting yelled at or called out in front of the team over it, so they know now how to work at not letting it happen again. A rookie needs that experience to fall back on. If you are busy yelling at everyone for every mistake the rookies are less likely to take the punishment personally because they just see you as an ass. If you single them out then it will make the mistake personal and they will be more likely to not only remember it, but more likely to correct it faster.


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11-05-2009, 11:38 AM
  #36
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Not to be too picky, but I would like to clarify something. "The Buck Stops Here", while I'm sure is on a fair amount of desks these days, was a sign Truman kept on his desk. It's in referencing "passing the buck", during which blame or responsibility is passed from one person to another. Being the president, the responsibility for a great many decisions fell on the president, so it actually means the passing of said responsibility "stops here".

Anyway, lstcyr gets into the point I wanted to make a bit, but I'd like to go a little further. When a vet makes a rookie mistake they will notice it as soon as the coach does, if not before. They were once the rookie making the mistake and getting yelled at or called out in front of the team over it, so they know now how to work at not letting it happen again. A rookie needs that experience to fall back on. If you are busy yelling at everyone for every mistake the rookies are less likely to take the punishment personally because they just see you as an ass. If you single them out then it will make the mistake personal and they will be more likely to not only remember it, but more likely to correct it faster.
While you guys make perfect sense as to how this would work for most veterans, I still see a couple on our team that are making the same mistakes game after game. And I watched Wilson make it twice last game and get sat for nearly the rest of the game. Actions speak louder than words, and while you're right this type of coaching does make sense. As lstcyr said it is a person by person basis, and these vets aren't getting the message this way.

Man I learned that buck stops here in highschool, the Truman story about it. And completely forgot thats where it came from since it was used so widely years ago in offices. Total grade 10 flashback lol.

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11-05-2009, 04:40 PM
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Had to do a look up, because what I remembered hearing as a kid was that it was credited to Truman but he didn't coin the phrase. So now I find that Truman made the phrase famous, but historians say it was known at least regionally before then. A friend of Truman's saw it posted somewhere and liked it, made the desk plaque, and sent it to Truman, who of course loved it. And it was a play off of the well known phrase "passing the buck" which comes from poker and came to mean not taking responsibility, and of course where the buck stops is who is taking responsibility.

I don't think Trotz allows his vets to pass the buck, they take responsibility, but sure, they get more leeway. Sometimes I almost wonder if he can coach when the same guys do the same things. But every player is going to have their strengths and weaknesses. Trotz probably just tries to work around them. A rookie, he doesn't know yet what is set in stone, so maybe he works more at correcting their faults.

This team could have done a lot of buck passing when they went on the 0-5-1 streak. But what we heard was a lot of veterans talking about how they had to play better and how they had to play as a team. Not the blame game that could have resulted. So we seem to have good leadership.

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11-05-2009, 04:55 PM
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If there's one consistent theme Poile and Trotz strive for it's character in the locker room. The guys might not be producing like we want them to, like they should, or like they get paid to, but it's been a while since a Preds player not named Radulov struck me as a prima donna.

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