This is probably one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read.
4 guys that have 0 points and 0 NHL games under their belts are not ">>>" a guy that scored 20+ goals last year, plays key minutes offensively and defensively, and is an assistant captain of an NHL club.
Not one of them could step in tonight and take over Callahan's role on this team. Maybe 4 years from now, those players will be better than Callahan. Maybe 4 years from now they'll all be struggling in the minors or playing overseas.
Ha, I just sort of hammered Callahan for being overrated, but that statement was an all-timer.
So, Werek, Krieder, Grachev, and Stepan are all better than Callahan right now? Thats crazy. Im even willing to bet at least 1 of those 4 never make it to the NHL.
I think Vinny to NYR makes sense in Sather's realm. It appears that Torts is here for the long term. Vinny is putting up a point per game while coming back from wrist surgery. He is going to build back his stregnth and still has another 5-7 seasons where he will be DOMINANT. I wouldn't be suprised to see Sather start with a package that looks something like this:
*Obviously this is pending Drury being convinced to move his no movement clause. Frankly I am not sure he would want to be on a team that does not want him. (Enter the not ruining his Christmas jokes)
For Tampa Bay this deal makes all the sense in the world. They are already torn with there management to keep Vinny or not. This would allow an aleviation of 80 Million Dollars for the next 10 years on their payroll. They would take on Drury who has 2 more seasons of 7 million per as well as Higgins salary dump. Dubinsky/Callahan are going to be on their team for at least two years and they will have the ability to build with one of them as part of the young nucleaus as a complimentry player to Stamkos. Sauer has #6 defenseman minimum written all over him.
This might be a type of deal which would help both franchises long term.
I don't know guys. That contract really is a monster. And last time I checked Vinny is not Ilya Kovalchuk.
This could be Gomez/Drury/Redden all over again. I do not want to be handcuffed by bad contracts anymore. If I'm bringing anyone to this team for a big, long-term contract it's got to be a bonafide gamebreaker like Kovalchuk. That's why we got Gaborik - when healthy he is a bonafide superstar. I think we should stick to that line of thinking. The only big contracts we take on should be as close to sure bets as possible.
We can't gamble with a contract that big and that long. Bob Gainey is not going to bail us out of all our bad long term contracts - although he actually might if it were Vinny...
You mistaken for putting Vinny in the same category as Drury/Gomez/Redden (Although Wade once was a superstar)
Vincent Lecavalier is an elite hockey player and talent. I would have no problem paying 7 million per season for an elite player instead of Drury.
Kovalchuk was 43-48-91 last season. He's been scoring 40-50 goals every year for the past 5 years on Atlanta. To me that's a much safer bet than up-and-down Vinny who's point totals at the end of the season have been all over the place (51, 37, 78, 66, 75, 108, 92, 67). Vinny is a low-to-mid 30s goal scorer who's played with St. Louis for years. Kovalchuk has played with practically no one for years.
Kovalchuk looks to be the definition of consistency. That's what I want out of a player I'm paying to be a superstar. That's what Drury and Gomez didn't have. That's what I don't think Vinny has. Consistency.
EDIT: Before I'm attacked from all angles let me say that I'm well aware that Vinny is in another realm of talent than Gomez and Drury - I'm just pointing out that it's about a player living up to their contract. Kovalchuk I think there's like a 95% chance of living up to whatever contract he would receive. Vinny I think is closer to 65-70%.
Last edited by RegalRangers: 11-05-2009 at 10:24 AM.
I know this is "hockey's future," but one more fan who says he wouldn't give up Kreider who has never excelled out of High School or Werek over Dubi/Callihan is insane...
The issue isn't even Kreder. I am not sure I want Vinny period. His contract is $8 a year for the next 10 years and he's 29 years old. We'll be paying a guy in his mid and late 30s a huge amount of money. He'll be a third liner at that point. If Vinny's contract ended at the age of 35, it would be different.
You think Drury is bad, wait until an older Vinny is getting paid even more.
Kovalchuk was 43-48-91 last season. He's been scoring 40-50 goals every year for the past 5 years on Atlanta. To me that's a much safer bet than up-and-down Vinny who's point totals at the end of the season have been all over the place (51, 37, 78, 66, 75, 108, 92, 67). Vinny is a low-to-mid 30s goal scorer who's played with St. Louis for years. Kovalchuk has played with practically no one for years.
Kovalchuk looks to be the definition of consistency. That's what I want out of a player I'm paying to be a superstar. That's what Drury and Gomez didn't have. That's what I don't think Vinny has. Consistency.
Let's see how consistent IK will be when his leg heals. Injuries effect superstars as mush as regular folks. Vinny is coming out of wrist surgery. Don't you think wrist is related to scoring?
And why scoring is the criteria? LeCavalier is a centre. Centre is your 3rd D that also provides the offense. 3rd line - more defense, 1st line - more offense. As I pointed out many times offense and scoring is not the same. Scoring is sniper's job. IK is a sniper, that what he does. We've got sniper in Gaborick, we need 1st line C. Vinny is the best in NHL in that position, IMO.
Bottom line: can't compare apples and oranges just because both are fruits.
I would have no problem moving either of Gilroy, Dubinsky or Grachev for LeCav.
Callahan? I think he have more value to us then Tampa -- hence its "unnecessary" to trade him instead of someone else...
at this pt Lecavaliers production and value is down. If he becomes a star again and puts up tons of pts then they can get that. Otherwise Drury, Rozsival, Sanguinetti, Byers, 1st rounder,2nd rounder
I watched a lot of Tampa games this season and all I can say is: I do not want him here. We're not talking about just being snake bitten, more like devoured by anaconda.
Thats how I felt a couple of years ago. I also didn't want him here.
Why? Because he can't carry a team. Guys like Parise, Booth and co just skates him to the ground.
But here my bet is that he would play on the 2nd line. We basically have 11 slugs up front. We can definitely afford to carry another star.
A huge advantage with LeCav is that nobody can critizise him for his PP game. He is definitely right there with the very best, if not the best, forward on the PP. Great shot. Great decisionmaking. Great vision.
The problem is his speed.
I would also like to add that he isn't that expensive. 7m per. Like Mats Sundin was offered 10m for 1 year from Vancouver. Any other of the mega stars would defenitely get the same on the UFA market. There is a substansial diffrence between paying someone 7m and 10m.
at this pt Lecavaliers production and value is down. If he becomes a star again and puts up tons of pts then they can get that. Otherwise Drury, Rozsival, Sanguinetti, Byers, 1st rounder,2nd rounder
Byers and #2 are fillers that makes you feel like you are giving up something.
Rosie and Drury are contracts. Why would Tampa take on more contracts than it gives up?
Otherwise, it's Sangs for Vinny. Would be a good idea if we were close to winning the Cup, but we aren't, so it's not.
Give up like Higgins, Anisimov, Sangs/Gilroy and a couple of 1st to get LeCav. Higgins can be sent somewhere else in a 3-way if Tampa have no interest in him.
Id rather keep Grachev and live with Redden's god-awful contrac
I know some one is going to come in here and take what I say and blow it out of proportion but...
Redden has been great this season. Not a 6.5 million dollar defenseman but hes been 5x better then Blowitzall this season.
Id keep Redden, I like the way hes been playing and am starting to come around on that signing...
With as bad as Rozsival has been playing, it would be stupid to trade Redden and keep Rozy. Redden has been playing as a top 4 defenseman and those are not easy to come by.
Let's see how consistent IK will be when his leg heals. Injuries effect superstars as mush as regular folks. Vinny is coming out of wrist surgery. Don't you think wrist is related to scoring?
And why scoring is the criteria? LeCavalier is a centre. Centre is your 3rd D that also provides the offense. 3rd line - more defense, 1st line - more offense. As I pointed out many times offense and scoring is not the same. Scoring is sniper's job. IK is a sniper, that what he does. We've got sniper in Gaborick, we need 1st line C. Vinny is the best in NHL in that position, IMO.
Bottom line: can't compare apples and oranges just because both are fruits.
Normally I would agree with you 100% but I feel that when you're talking about players at such an elite level as Gaborik and Kovalchuk you really don't need to consider playmaker vs. sniper. Having two of the world's most gifted and dynamic scorers on the team is not a problem. Especially with cheaper playmakers on the team. We're talking about one player who can add 40-50 goals virtually by himself. Our powerplay would be unstoppable. Our offense would be out of control. Kovalchuk might not be all that safe defensively but safe is death right?
I would also like to add that he isn't that expensive. 7m per.
$7.725M cap hit through 2020. We're taking $85M USD Ola.
I'm not following the logic of signing a player to an 11 year contract, then possibly trading him in the first year. Vinny and the team were obviously looking ahead when they signed the deal to a time when Stamkos and Hedman lead this iteration of the 'Bolts to their next Cup. I don't see any scenario where that changes within the time frame that's being discussed here.
And as for these trade proposals, I just don't know what to say. You wanna blow $7M because you think there's a problem down the middle? Sign Savard as a UFA next summer, end up with a better player and keep the team's current and future foundation in place.
You wanna blow $7M because you think there's a problem down the middle? Sign Savard as a UFA next summer, end up with a better player and keep the team's current and future foundation in place.
I'm not following the logic of signing a player to an 11 year contract, then possibly trading him in the first year.
The logic is simple. The inflation of salaries was expected. Should such expectation be correct ( i.e 20 million per year or so would be what elite 1C is paid), Vinny would be underpaid by the end of his term. Signing DiPietro was another example of such thinking.
It didn't work out due to severe World Economic Crisis of 08. Or at least didn't work out as fast as predicted. The solutions are 1)to keep VLC and wait till salaries go up as predicted or 2)admit the mistake and take a loss before it is too late. I think TB will take a second route, but it's just a guess.
The logic is simple. The inflation of salaries was expected.
I understand length vs. compensation/year.
What I don't understand is why you'd commit to and build around an individual, then 14 months later, decide you may want to change course. This isn't Scott Gomez we're talking about. This is the guy who's the face of the franchise. Their success on and off the ice depends too heavily on this one player to talk about trading him IMO.
My thoughts exactly!
