Wow its overwhelming how many people are backing zherdev.....obviously he has more talent then kotalik....but you cant compare the talent....look at what each would have done for the team....our PP has easily won us half our games alone....Kotalik is much more valuble to us then zherdev is or ever will be.....Kotalik shot is such a bomb that it will start opning up plays down low for guys like gaborik and prospal....prime example look at callys goal last night....wingers were so concerned about kotalik at the point the winger was to high to get back at cally and although very nice pass by del zotto which by the way kotalik had the pressence under pressure to make a perfect pass to DZ while moving ..i know its early still long season to go but as for now kotalik 10 fold.....17 pp goals in 17 games...not too shabby
Zherdev is undeniably a better playmaker than Kotalik, and having a player like him would provide the Rangers with more flexibility in the top 6. Zherdev could play on the top line with Gabby, moving Prospal down to the 2nd line, or vice versa.
Kotalik, on the other hand, is more effective on the PP than Zherdev. I would probably choose Zherdev for his passing ability, but the way he played under Torts does make me a bit hesitant.
Close but I chose Zherdev. Kotalik definitely fills a big need for the team, but in my opinion that's the only thing that makes it close. He is fairly useless on even strength and he couldn't elevate his game the way Zherdev was capable of. I think it was a great signing by Sather, but I still believe Zherdev could have put up 80 points this year with MDZ, Gaborik and Prospal to help.
i have a better idea...how 'bout we rewind alllll the way back, keep toots and forget zherdev even existed. 2 birds with one stone right there...now wouldnt that be nice!?!?!
Don't get me wrong, Kotalik has done exactly what he was signed for and he's done it well. So, no complaints there. In fact, I'm willing to accept the fact that he can disappear for long stretches at even strength and overlook the fact that he probably isn't NEARLY as good on the PP as we've seen if DZ doesn't step up to be the QB that every bomber from the point needs to be effective. As I said, he's provided exactly what he was signed to provide - so I'm officially ready to eat crow on my previous statement that it was a bad signing. It wasn't.
HOWEVER, Zherdev at $3MM per year for 3 years would be a godsend for this team. We have enough shooters. We have enough solid north-south responsible players. What we don't have is enough playmakers. And while I understand everyone's disappointment in Z's disappearance in last year's playoffs, remember how good he was prior to that? Can you imagine Zherdev on the RW on the second line behind Gaborik? His presence alone would render the strategy Vancouver employed the other night much less effective and make us a much tougher team to play against.
Of course, if we could've had Nik for that contract, he'd be here right now so the point is moot, isn't it?
Last edited by BrooklynRangersFan: 11-06-2009 at 04:38 PM.
I'm not arguing that he's not talented, but I am arguing that if he is better or arguably as good all around (not in wrist shot, not in intensity, but as an entire asset to a hockey team) as Kotalik is, it would seem to me that he would be on A team right now. I can't agree with you that not being signed has nothing to do with talent, because if you are talented enough, you will have a spot on an NHL roster despite what seemingly huge downside you may have. If you can score goals or pass the puck with the best of them, there will always be a team that needs that skill regardless of attitude questions or contract negotiation problems. That being said, I'm not claiming that Zherdev isn't talented, when he felt like playing heart and soul he lifted me out of my seat and in general I thought that not signing him was a mistake at the time. However, as an entire asset to a team, he isn't on the NHL level in my opinion. He can shoot well, he can pass very well, but he has little heart and even less overall intensity, two things that are a must in any professional athlete.
Looking back on my last post and your answer though, you're probably right that "talented" isn't the right word. What I meant was that if he were overall as valuable a player as Kotalik, why isn't he in the league?
He's not as valuable as Kotalik, since he carries such a toxic reputation. That kills most of his value. But I'd still rather have him than Kotalik. And that's no knock on Kotalik.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeHamiltonsTan
on what planet would zherdev assert effort long enough to pile up those kinds of numbers? certainly not this one. he's a diva, let him snpa his fingers in a Z formation (pun intended) all season long in the KHL, his reputation finally ruined him here.
You seized on the least important part of my argument. Even if he's having an average Zherdev season he's still more productive than Kotalik. The guy posted 58 points on an inept offensive team devoid of much talent, even with his horrible slump over the final part of the season. He posted 61 points on an equally lame Columbus team the season before. Do I think 30-60-90 is likely? No. But were he to play on a top line with two excellent offensive players, adding 5 goals and 20 assists to his production isn't totally unreasonable. That kind of jump has happened with lesser players than Zherdev.
But that's beside the point. I'd rather have Zherdev at ages 25-27 for $3M per. And that's keeping in mind Kotalik's PP prowess.
Agreed. But is that shot as valuable if MDZ doesn't step up to be one of the best PP QBs in the league straight out of juniors?
Of course it still is as valuble....takes the wohle unit to make the PP work and MDZ is just as important as kotalik...it works both ways you take MDZ off the PP it will suffer....same as you took kotalik away...both players have made such a huge impact on the PP this year
Of course it still is as valuble....takes the wohle unit to make the PP work and MDZ is just as important as kotalik...it works both ways you take MDZ off the PP it will suffer....same as you took kotalik away...both players have made such a huge impact on the PP this year
Disagree. Yes, it takes the whole unit, but MDZ makes the PP better with pretty much any group of other PP players. Kotalik, on the other hand, is much, much less effective if he isn't set up in position to shoot.
I mean they both have pretty good skill for the NHL, i think kotalik is a better skater and shooter, where zherdev is well maybe a better passer, but than again Kotalik can pass, the one thing i could say is that they both dont show up every game which is the evident downside. Its quite interesting too see skilled guys like Kovalev and, Kotlaik, Zherdev or even Jagr for that matter who seem to have such fluctuations from one game to another and why that is. Is it a bad attitude, fluctuation in confidence, game condition, a disorder it is actually an inetersting reserach experiment if it was possible.
Disagree. Yes, it takes the whole unit, but MDZ makes the PP better with pretty much any group of other PP players. Kotalik, on the other hand, is much, much less effective if he isn't set up in position to shoot.
Well here is a question? If you took out kotalik who would you replace on the rangers roster with him....I understand what you are saying and your logic behind it...but without kotalik this PP would be so one dimensional like it always has been(Players at the point that never shoot)...MDZ improved the PP this year no doubt but just as equally Kotalik has as well
Whatever happened to Zherdev? (seroiuosly, I must have missed it. Did he get his $4MM?)
He signed with a club in the KHL, Atlant I believe. And for very little money as well according to reports, I'm guessing under 2 million per year. It was even reported that he came back to the Rangers seeing if they would accept the Rangers' pre arbitration number, but of course no cap space. Or it might've been Glen saying "You spit on me, I spit on you."
He signed with a club in the KHL, Atlant I believe. And for very little money as well according to reports, I'm guessing under 2 million per year. It was even reported that he came back to the Rangers seeing if they would accept the Rangers' pre arbitration number, but of course no cap space. Or it might've been Glen saying "You spit on me, I spit on you."
Honestly, I'm hoping that he fires his agent and comes back next year looking for a Prospal "let me prove it" deal. Would love to have Nik back on the Rangers. Especially as a 2nd line RW to Gaborik's 1st line RW.
And imagine Gaborik, Zherdev, [insert forward], Kotalik and MDZ on the PP...?
Kotalik has already brought more to the table in 17 games than Zherdev did over the course of an entire season....no contest...this is Kotalik.
Really? I seem to remember everyone being madly in love with Zherdev after the first month of last season, when he had 14 points in 17 games. Not saying you were one of them, but let's not forget how important Zherdev was to the team in the first half of the season. Let's wait until the end of the season before making outlandish statements...or at least until Kotalik goes 10 games without a goal, which is inevitable with him.
Really? I seem to remember everyone being madly in love with Zherdev after the first month of last season, when he had 14 points in 17 games. Not saying you were one of them, but let's not forget how important Zherdev was to the team in the first half of the season. Let's wait until the end of the season before making outlandish statements...or at least until Kotalik goes 10 games without a goal, which is inevitable with him.
Exactly. How quickly they forget.
He was neither as good as we thought he might be at his height or as bad as we were certain he was in his depth. He was skilled and mercurial - and I wish we could've seen what he could become in this system with these players.
WORST case he would've been the same all over again. And is anyone really that against a 60 point "disappointment"? Really? REALLY?
Kotalik is definitely benefiting from playing with Gabby on the PP. No question about it
That said, I've always felt like Zherdev was in his own little world for majority of the entire season. So far I haven't really seen that with Kotalik.
He was neither as good as we thought he might be at his height or as bad as we were certain he was in his depth. He was skilled and mercurial - and I wish we could've seen what he could become in this system with these players.
WORST case he would've been the same all over again. And is anyone really that against a 60 point "disappointment"? Really? REALLY?
It's just silly. We had Zherdev for a year, and it didn't work out. People know that. We've had Kotalik for a month, and so far it has worked out. How will it look at the end of the year? Who knows.
If one year ago today, this same question was asked, this thread would be mocked. At that time, Zherdev looked wonderful, like a player we always wanted. Ales Kotalik was starting his third of three consecutive "meh" seasons. It wouldn't be close if you asked it then. So maybe we ought to wait more than 17 games before declaring Kotalik light years ahead of Zherdev...
Again, I like Ales Kotalik. He's a good player. But he's also a guy that routinely goes 8-10 games without scoring. Two years ago he went 14 games without a goal! The year before, 13 games!
The other knock on Zherdev--where was he in the playoffs? Does anyone care that Kotalik's last time in the playoffs, he had 4 points in 16 games? None in the 5 games loss to Ottawa? Granted, the two previous playoff performances, Kotalik was solid. But Zherdev only has the one performance, so that's what everyone has him pegged as.
I get that a lot of people dislike Zherdev for various reasons, reasons that they've established from experience. But do those that dislike Zherdev really know Ales Kotalik, and how freaking streaky the guy is? I'm not even arguing that someone is wrong for preferring Kotalik to Zherdev--I totally understand there's a solid rationale for that preference. But all this rhetoric--"Kotalik, not even close", "Zherdev is a bum", "Is this a trick question?"--it's just stupid.
Too soon to choose Nick Z and Ales were/are both off to similar "hot" starts...If I had to make a choice now I would say Nick ONLY because when he was on point he was one of the most entertaining players to watch, but if Kots keeps his play up I won't miss Nick at all. He was great to watch and all but he just seemed like such a ***** half way thru the season
Zherdev wanted more than 3 mill, didn't he? Something in the neighborhood of 4.25 if I recall correctly. Gimme Kotalik as he fills a bigger need and is not a cancer.
honestly it shouldnt have came down to either or with those 2 players. personally i was never in love with zherdev and expected him to cool off. what i was looking for and expecting from zherdev was 25 goals 65 points. unfortunatly he went cold about in hte middle of the season and was struggling before torts came to the rangers. i dont look at how dissapointing zherdev was under torts, after all on another rangers bulletin board some drury supporters were raving about drurys improvement and he was on pace to score 30 goals. like a poster above mentioned we could have quite a use for zherdevs play making skills. really prospal and gaborik are the only players on this team who can pass and make plays. if we had both players this rangers team would be much better. kotalik would keep playing on the 3 line and zherdev could slide from the 1 line to the 2 line depending on how the lines are playing.
