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Don Taylor goes off on poker, on air... LOL

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Old
08-07-2009, 01:08 AM
  #101
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Don Taylor is the worst personality on sportsnet.
Jim Lang would like to have a word with you.

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Old
08-07-2009, 04:00 AM
  #102
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No, i'm not. I know that it is harder to win the TDF based on the physical factors of the race, it is also harder to get to the TDF as you have to be one of the best 180 cyclists in the world, and you need to somehow get onto a team. It takes years of practice and years of training, in the grand scheme of things the WSOP is no match to the TDF.

But as a single event the act of winning and overcoming longer odds is more impressive. The claim is that its one of the hardest prizes in sport to win. This means that its harder to finish first, not harder to complete the event, therefore in this argument the actual accomplishments of riding 3,500 kilometers has nothing to do with how hard it is to win. It has everything to do with how hard it is to complete the event but not how hard it is to finish 1st, every rider has to bike the exact same distance to win, just like every poker player has to accumulate all of the chips to win.

There is no doubt in my mind that winning the TDF is a harder event, that's a no brainer.
If you want to talk about a single event, then you should consider each round in the WSOP a single event. Each person has an equal odd of moving on to the next round and so forth and so forth. Each person at the final table has a 1 in 9 shot of winning it. It's not like Phil Ivey or anyone else actually faces the other 5999 people directly. He only plays those at his table. You're being rather absured saying how WSOP is an actual sporting even and is harder to win.

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08-07-2009, 05:05 AM
  #103
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Sure, but to assemble a field where Contador would have only a 150/1 chance of winning would require cloning, time-travel, genetic engineering, robots.

Maybe the reason that the most skilled poker "athletes" in the world have such long odds is that "skill" in poker actually accounts for far less than in real sports.



Quite possibly 150/1.
Not even close. I mean, earth-to-moon-not-close.

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08-07-2009, 09:34 AM
  #104
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Not even close. I mean, earth-to-moon-not-close.
If the difference between the best poker player in the world and an average professional is earth to moon, then the difference in boxing or cycling or MMA or just about any real sport is more like earth to Tatooine.

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08-07-2009, 10:32 AM
  #105
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If the difference between the best poker player in the world and an average professional is earth to moon, then the difference in boxing or cycling or MMA or just about any real sport is more like earth to Tatooine.
Possible, not likely though.
And don't use the term "real sport", please.

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08-07-2009, 11:02 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Vikke View Post
Possible, not likely though.
And don't use the term "real sport", please.


Uh... it looks like you're arguing that an untrained poker player has the same chance of winning the WSOP as an untrained cyclist has of winning the Tour de France. It also looks like you're arguing poker is just as "real" a sport as... well, real sports.

Surely neither of these can be the case?

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08-07-2009, 11:38 AM
  #107
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Uh... it looks like you're arguing that an untrained poker player has the same chance of winning the WSOP as an untrained cyclist has of winning the Tour de France. It also looks like you're arguing poker is just as "real" a sport as... well, real sports.

Surely neither of these can be the case?
I sure as hell don't. I'm saying it's practically and theoretically impossible for a complete beginner to win the TDF, but it's not the same case for a poker player playing his first hand ever in the WSOP Main Event. It's just very, very unlikely.

And no, even though I've been making a living playing poker pretty much the last few years, I wouldn't even call poker a sport.
It's a game. A very, very tough game to beat and master, sure, but it's no sport.

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08-07-2009, 06:25 PM
  #108
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The top cyclists would get something like 2-3-4 to 1, right?
I wouldn't bet on Ivey for less than 600 to 1 and I rank him as the best player in the WSOP.

Still, I'd say that it's entirely possible to win the WSOP even if you're a far inferior player. See Jerry Yang, Chris Moneymaker, Jamie Gold for recent examples.
In poker it's just not that easy, the best player doesn't win every single time.
If I played 100 HU sit'n'goes vs the best HUSNG player in the world, I'd still win a bunch of them due to pure luck.
If I ran against Usain Bolt or challenged Armstrong to a 100km bicycle race, I'd lose every single time. Well, as long as they don't break their legs and stuff and even if they did, I still wouldn't be a favorite.
How inferior are players like Yang, Moneymaker, and Gold? They still know their way around a poker table.

A HU SNG is a lot different than a 13 day 6000 contestant tournament.

Anyways, this has gone on way to long, so here is my Jerry Springer Final thoughts:

- Under no curcumstances have i said that winning the WSOP was a more impressive accomplishment than winning the TDF, I am more impressed by Lance Armstrong than Stu Unger.

- My claim that the WSOP main event is one of the toughest prizes in "sport"" is solely based on the odds that one has to overcome, odds that are based on the skill of the player and the difficulty of what has to be done, not luck. Comparing the WSOP to the Lottery is a million more times more far fetched than comparing the WSOP to the TDF.

- Both the TDF and the WSOP are competitions based on a skill. As far as I am concerned for this debate what that skill is really is irrelevant. I think the odds given to each accomplishment are very telling as to how hard they are to win.

- I know there is luck in poker, like I said there is also bad luck in poker. But tell me no one has never won a major championship on luck, and I'll show you the 1989 Calgary Flames. I think we can all agree on that one, haha.


Last edited by Oil Gauge: 08-07-2009 at 10:03 PM.
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Old
08-07-2009, 06:44 PM
  #109
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How inferior are players like Yang, Moneymaker, and Gold? They still know their way around a poker table.

.
Very, very inferior. Jamie Gold is better than me, but the difference between me and Jamie is smaller than the difference between him and Ivey. Kind of.
I don't even want to mention Jerry Yang in a thread about poker skills. He's so far down the ranking of poker players, I could mention 200 without coming close to his name.

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Old
11-11-2009, 12:46 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Oil Gauge View Post
How inferior are players like Yang, Moneymaker, and Gold? They still know their way around a poker table.

A HU SNG is a lot different than a 13 day 6000 contestant tournament.

Anyways, this has gone on way to long, so here is my Jerry Springer Final thoughts:

- Under no curcumstances have i said that winning the WSOP was a more impressive accomplishment than winning the TDF, I am more impressed by Lance Armstrong than Stu Unger.

- My claim that the WSOP main event is one of the toughest prizes in "sport"" is solely based on the odds that one has to overcome, odds that are based on the skill of the player and the difficulty of what has to be done, not luck. Comparing the WSOP to the Lottery is a million more times more far fetched than comparing the WSOP to the TDF.

- Both the TDF and the WSOP are competitions based on a skill. As far as I am concerned for this debate what that skill is really is irrelevant. I think the odds given to each accomplishment are very telling as to how hard they are to win.

- I know there is luck in poker, like I said there is also bad luck in poker. But tell me no one has never won a major championship on luck, and I'll show you the 1989 Calgary Flames. I think we can all agree on that one, haha.
First of all I realize this thread is a few months old but I found your comments in this thread interesting, but wrong. Your problem is that you believe that something that is less likely to happen is thus "more difficult." That's just faulty logic. By the way, I've played poker the last few years professionally and obviously I believe there is a ton of skill involved in game. However tournaments, especially one such as the main event requires an absurd amount of luck to win or even get deep, no matter how good you are. The final table in any tournament with a large field always consists of more amateurs than pros.

You can't really make a credible argument either that it is harder to win the Main Event at the WSOP than it is to win the TDF or the U.S. Open in Golf, even if you go strictly by the odds. It is more difficult for the best poker player such as Ivey to win the main event than it is for Lance or Tiger to win their respective championships but at the same time the "average joe" has literally no chance of winning a major individual sporting event that might take place in golf, tennis, boxing, etc. In the Main Event anybody can buy in as long as they have $10k. If 5000 amateurs ponied up money to play the U.S. open would that hurt Tiger's chances much? Of course not. In poker anybody with even an extremely basic understanding of the game and next to no experience can luckbox their way to a final table. That has been proven time and time again at the Main Event alone. Yang and Gold in particular are perfect examples of this. They are flat out bad poker players and certainly in terms of skill were near the bottom of their respective fields. They made countless mistakes on their way to winning the Championship because they had poor fundamentals and a weak understanding of the game. Moneymaker was far from a strong player when he won, but he wasn't terrible either. He knew what he was doing for the most part, but he was still incredibly lucky to have won.

Or think of it this way: 10,000 people buy into the Main Event, only 500 being pros. The "average joe" would have roughly a 1 in 10,000 shot of winning, correct? Obviously a little worse than that because a small percentage of the field has pros, but it's close enough. If 10,000 people bought into the U.S. Open and only 500 were pros the chances of an "average joe" winning are absurd, and the chances that a below average golfer would win would be astronomical. In fact, it probably would be flat out impossible for such a scenario to occur. Poker has such a tremendous short term luck factor that a below average poker player can and has done so on a frequent basis in large tournaments.

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11-11-2009, 01:06 AM
  #111
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For those of you who define sports as how physically demanding something is. I assume you don't view darts as a sport either?

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11-11-2009, 01:14 AM
  #112
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For those of you who define sports as how physically demanding something is. I assume you don't view darts as a sport either?
Well, darts requires lots of dexterity. I'd call it a sport but I wouldn't call it athletic.

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11-11-2009, 01:14 AM
  #113
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For those of you who define sports as how physically demanding something is. I assume you don't view darts as a sport either?
Nope, past time sure, game sure, but it's not a sport.

I tend to follow the rule of: if you can get fatter doing it, then it is not a sport

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11-11-2009, 03:40 PM
  #114
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Joe Cada is a donkey.

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11-11-2009, 03:41 PM
  #115
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Hate that guy.

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11-11-2009, 03:44 PM
  #116
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Who pushes all in with baby pairs? It seems like the worst players always win that thing anyway.

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11-11-2009, 05:06 PM
  #117
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Who pushes all in with baby pairs? It seems like the worst players always win that thing anyway.
Depends on chip count and who else is in the hand, but this year's final table at the WSOP wasn't the best exhibition of how to play.

Saout and Ivey were clearly the better players, but the cards didn't fall right.

I think the heads up battle was fairly anticlimatic. Anyone who puts their WSOP title on the line with, at best, a coin flip is not playing the game at a high enough level IMO (and with one third of the chips on hand and QJ suited pre-flop after being raised). You know that a better player would pick their spots better, but as with any game, sometimes **** happens (Belarus over Sweden).

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11-11-2009, 05:08 PM
  #118
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The Tour De france only has 180 riders, to be the best of 6000+ is a greater feet than to be the best of 180.

The World cup is only a 32 team event...

As for the olympics, you could make the argument that everyone in the world has a chance to compete at the Olympics. Though once you make it to the Olympics there are no where near 6000 people in any given event, it would me more like 30-40 athletes in any given event.

I'm not saying that the winner of the WSOP is the most amazing athlete there is because in reality a 300 pound man could win the WSOP, he would have no chance at winning the Tour De France.

All i'm saying is that sitting down at the beginning of the WOSP, and sitting at the starting line of the Tour De France. You are far more likely to win the Tour De France than you are a bracelet. So it is harder to win the Main event at the WSOP than it is to win the Tour De France. (not based on physical demands of the events at all)
Do you know how many people started the NY Marathon this year? By your math that is the toughest sport in the world...

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11-11-2009, 05:51 PM
  #119
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First of all I realize this thread is a few months old but I found your comments in this thread interesting, but wrong. Your problem is that you believe that something that is less likely to happen is thus "more difficult." That's just faulty logic. By the way, I've played poker the last few years professionally and obviously I believe there is a ton of skill involved in game. However tournaments, especially one such as the main event requires an absurd amount of luck to win or even get deep, no matter how good you are. The final table in any tournament with a large field always consists of more amateurs than pros.

You can't really make a credible argument either that it is harder to win the Main Event at the WSOP than it is to win the TDF or the U.S. Open in Golf, even if you go strictly by the odds. It is more difficult for the best poker player such as Ivey to win the main event than it is for Lance or Tiger to win their respective championships but at the same time the "average joe" has literally no chance of winning a major individual sporting event that might take place in golf, tennis, boxing, etc. In the Main Event anybody can buy in as long as they have $10k. If 5000 amateurs ponied up money to play the U.S. open would that hurt Tiger's chances much? Of course not. In poker anybody with even an extremely basic understanding of the game and next to no experience can luckbox their way to a final table. That has been proven time and time again at the Main Event alone. Yang and Gold in particular are perfect examples of this. They are flat out bad poker players and certainly in terms of skill were near the bottom of their respective fields. They made countless mistakes on their way to winning the Championship because they had poor fundamentals and a weak understanding of the game. Moneymaker was far from a strong player when he won, but he wasn't terrible either. He knew what he was doing for the most part, but he was still incredibly lucky to have won.

Or think of it this way: 10,000 people buy into the Main Event, only 500 being pros. The "average joe" would have roughly a 1 in 10,000 shot of winning, correct? Obviously a little worse than that because a small percentage of the field has pros, but it's close enough. If 10,000 people bought into the U.S. Open and only 500 were pros the chances of an "average joe" winning are absurd, and the chances that a below average golfer would win would be astronomical. In fact, it probably would be flat out impossible for such a scenario to occur. Poker has such a tremendous short term luck factor that a below average poker player can and has done so on a frequent basis in large tournaments.
I like the way you look at it.

Like you say, adding 10,000 amateurs to a major golf tournament would not concern Tiger Woods, adding 10,000 to the WSOP would greatly concern Phil Ivey. Why? Because it makes the task at hand more difficult for Ivey than Woods.

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Originally Posted by Meanashell11 View Post
Do you know how many people started the NY Marathon this year? By your math that is the toughest sport in the world...
Do you think if you put Darvin Moon on the starting line at the NY Marathon that Meb Keflezighi would even bats an eye? Put him in the WSOP and Phil Ivey needs to take him seriously.

And i never said that poker was the toughest sport in the world. All i said is that it is the hardest prize to win.

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11-11-2009, 05:57 PM
  #120
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I like the way you look at it.

Like you say, adding 10,000 amateurs to a major golf tournament would not concern Tiger Woods, adding 10,000 to the WSOP would greatly concern Phil Ivey. Why? Because it makes the task at hand more difficult for Ivey than Woods.



Do you think if you put Darvin Moon on the starting line at the NY Marathon that Meb Keflezighi would even bats an eye? Put him in the WSOP and Phil Ivey needs to take him seriously.

And i never said that poker was the toughest sport in the world. All i said is that it is the hardest prize to win.
Still at it ignoring the fact that NY Marathon runners beat out the entire world huh.

6-49 is a tough sport to win, look at those odds!

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11-11-2009, 06:04 PM
  #121
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It's kind of silly to represent the World Cup as being a 32 participant event, or the Tour de France as being a 180 person event, and then comparing that to the WSOP as a 10000 person event. All of these top level sporting events have multiple layers of qualification before a person can even think about competing for the ultimate prize.

If I wanted to, I could pony up the cash right now and enter a major poker tournament and become competitor #10001 (main reason why: poker players are competing directly for each others cash, and have a solid understanding of probability/expected value and the like, and thus they have no problems with thousands of rank amateurs plunking down wads of cash for them to win).

On the other hand, I can't just haul my 12-speed down to the Champs Elysee and say "hey fellas, mind if I join you?" and become competitor #181 in the TDF. Nor can me and my buddies show up at the 2012 World Cup and challenge the Brazilians to a match. In order to compete in the WC, a team must first go through a series of qualifiers, and in order for a player to be on a national team in the first place, he had to go through years of competition at youth level, in professional leagues, and in national team selection camps. To win a Stanley Cup, it's not just a matter of 30 teams of 23 guys, it starts with kids competing for spots on their local A teams, midget hockey players competing for spots in Junior A, Junior players trying to get drafted, prospects competing in training camp and in the minor leagues for spots on those 30 rosters, and only then does it come down to 400-or-so NHL players trying to win the Cup.

The weeding out process that starts well before the actual competition in these events means that there are actually far more than 180 cyclists competing for the TDF, and far, far more than 32 teams of 20 soccer players trying to win a World Cup. Thousands of hockey players are competing every year just for the opportunity to get to the NHL. In the WSOP, the weeding out process doesn't start until the event actually starts. The event that is comparable to the SC or the WC or the TDF is the final table, or the final few tables, after competition has culled the weaker players. This of course ignores the fact that, in poker, luck can result in a few of the weaker players amassing enough chips that they can make it deep into the tournament. In contrast, a guy who has to get off his bike to push it up the hill is never, ever going to luck his way into the field of the TDF.

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Old
11-11-2009, 10:21 PM
  #122
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Still at it ignoring the fact that NY Marathon runners beat out the entire world huh.

6-49 is a tough sport to win, look at those odds!
Definitely not.

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Originally Posted by taunting canadian View Post
It's kind of silly to represent the World Cup as being a 32 participant event, or the Tour de France as being a 180 person event, and then comparing that to the WSOP as a 10000 person event. All of these top level sporting events have multiple layers of qualification before a person can even think about competing for the ultimate prize.

If I wanted to, I could pony up the cash right now and enter a major poker tournament and become competitor #10001 (main reason why: poker players are competing directly for each others cash, and have a solid understanding of probability/expected value and the like, and thus they have no problems with thousands of rank amateurs plunking down wads of cash for them to win).

On the other hand, I can't just haul my 12-speed down to the Champs Elysee and say "hey fellas, mind if I join you?" and become competitor #181 in the TDF. Nor can me and my buddies show up at the 2012 World Cup and challenge the Brazilians to a match. In order to compete in the WC, a team must first go through a series of qualifiers, and in order for a player to be on a national team in the first place, he had to go through years of competition at youth level, in professional leagues, and in national team selection camps. To win a Stanley Cup, it's not just a matter of 30 teams of 23 guys, it starts with kids competing for spots on their local A teams, midget hockey players competing for spots in Junior A, Junior players trying to get drafted, prospects competing in training camp and in the minor leagues for spots on those 30 rosters, and only then does it come down to 400-or-so NHL players trying to win the Cup.

The weeding out process that starts well before the actual competition in these events means that there are actually far more than 180 cyclists competing for the TDF, and far, far more than 32 teams of 20 soccer players trying to win a World Cup. Thousands of hockey players are competing every year just for the opportunity to get to the NHL. In the WSOP, the weeding out process doesn't start until the event actually starts. The event that is comparable to the SC or the WC or the TDF is the final table, or the final few tables, after competition has culled the weaker players. This of course ignores the fact that, in poker, luck can result in a few of the weaker players amassing enough chips that they can make it deep into the tournament. In contrast, a guy who has to get off his bike to push it up the hill is never, ever going to luck his way into the field of the TDF.
Thank you for backing up my argument that it is a more impressive accomplishment to make it to the TDF, WC, or the NHL than it is to make it to the WSOP...

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