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Old
11-13-2009, 02:53 PM
  #151
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
Because of the reasons that I have stated. Im not going to appreciate a blown five minute PP at the end of a game where we are down by one, where the PP qb farts around like it is after school shinny. You do your thing and Ill do mine. If you dont like my posts, the ignore function is available and ready.
A powerplay that currently ranks 10th in the NHL?

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11-13-2009, 02:56 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by Ol' Jase View Post
A powerplay that currently ranks 10th in the NHL?
And a pp which Hemsky has the second best production currently on the team.

http://lowetide.blogspot.com/2009/11...ally-good.html

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11-13-2009, 03:01 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by Ol' Jase View Post
A powerplay that currently ranks 10th in the NHL?
Tenth and twentieth are seperated by 2%. Are you suggesting that we should strive for mediocrity?

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11-13-2009, 03:02 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by hockeyaddict101 View Post
And a pp which Hemsky has the second best production currently on the team.

http://lowetide.blogspot.com/2009/11...ally-good.html
Considering he gets all the best PP time and handles the puck the most he should be first, not second.

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11-13-2009, 03:08 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
Considering he gets all the best PP time and handles the puck the most he should be first, not second.
Penner has been great for 19 games! I hope he continues because we actually need another forward than can even come close to Hemsky!

I hope you can continue to hang your hat on Penner because then we can have two players that CONTINUALLY outperform their contracts!

Wouldn't that be a thrill?

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11-13-2009, 03:09 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
Tenth and twentieth are seperated by 2%. Are you suggesting that we should strive for mediocrity?
How much difference is their between 8 and 10?

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11-13-2009, 03:12 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by Ol' Jase View Post
A powerplay that currently ranks 10th in the NHL?
I think IATL was referring to the specific 5 min PP as opposed to overall stats....I agree with Liquor on this, not enough determination by the PP unit (s) to get the tying goal on a 5 minute PP

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11-13-2009, 03:13 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by hockeyaddict101 View Post
How much difference is their between 8 and 10?
Thanks for pointing that out. It also is 2%. So we have an equal chance of improving to eighth or falling to twentieth. You do good work.

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11-13-2009, 03:24 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
Thanks for pointing that out. It also is 2%. So we have an equal chance of improving to eighth or falling to twentieth. You do good work.
Hopefully with Souray's health and Penner's increased importance to the PP that we can actually go the right way!

Seriously I am actually glad that we have players that are starting to approach Hemsky's production in any capacity. I do not consider that a negative.

It means that we actually have a decent chance to have a decent PP.

That really does not just apply to the PP. This team has had to rely to much on Hemsky and that has been the problem for a while!

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11-13-2009, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by hockeyaddict101 View Post
Hopefully with Souray's health and Penner's increased importance to the PP that we can actually go the right way!

Seriously I am actually glad that we have players that are starting to approach Hemsky's production in any capacity. I do not consider that a negative.

It means that we actually have a decent chance to have a decent PP.

That really does not just apply to the PP. This team has had to rely to much on Hemsky and that has been the problem for a while!
Agreed. Here is hoping the team can get back on track.

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11-13-2009, 03:28 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
Tenth and twentieth are seperated by 2%. Are you suggesting that we should strive for mediocrity?
Look at my statement, and tell me again that I am implying anything.

Our PP is currently ranked 10th the league. Are you disputing this?

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11-13-2009, 03:29 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
Tenth and twentieth are seperated by 2%. Are you suggesting that we should strive for mediocrity?
You could find dirt in a snow storm.

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11-13-2009, 03:29 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by Ol' Jase View Post
Look at my statement, and tell me again that I am implying anything.

Our PP is currently ranked 10th the league. Are you disputing this?
Just putting it in perspective. Something that seems in short supply around here.

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11-13-2009, 03:31 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
Just putting it in perspective. Something that seems in short supply around here.
I couldn't have said it better myself.

For the record, saying "our PP could easily be 20th" isn't perspective.

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11-13-2009, 03:32 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
Just putting it in perspective. Something that seems in short supply around here.
Actually perspective was seeing that their was the same difference between 10 and 12th as there was been 8 and 10th.

So really the difference was moot and meant nothing either way and your point was useless.

The correct conclusion is that they are 10th!

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11-13-2009, 03:32 PM
  #166
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Originally Posted by Ol' Jase View Post
I couldn't have said it better myself.
But you didnt. Did you?

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11-13-2009, 04:16 PM
  #167
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Perspective

Talking about perspective here? To put this whole thing into perspective, it doesn't matter if the Oilers are 10th, 20th, 1st or 31st. The Oilers have to put a better effort on the PP (both lines) and stop playing shinny. They have to be much more responsible in the offensive zone and get some friggin goals. They need to pass better, they need to shoot better, they need to setup better, they have to BE better

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Old
11-13-2009, 04:49 PM
  #168
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Originally Posted by hockeyaddict101 View Post
Actually perspective was seeing that their was the same difference between 10 and 12th as there was been 8 and 10th.

So really the difference was moot and meant nothing either way and your point was useless.

The correct conclusion is that they are 10th!
You better check your post, re-read my post, and get back to me.

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11-13-2009, 04:52 PM
  #169
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Originally Posted by Ol' Jase View Post
I couldn't have said it better myself.

For the record, saying "our PP could easily be 20th" isn't perspective.
Oh really? You are stating and representing that we have a top pp. I am showing you that the margin between tenth and twentieth is razor thin. That is putting things in perspective.

Cherry picking parameters to suit your argument is the opposite of perspective. Are you a used car salesman by chance?

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11-13-2009, 05:04 PM
  #170
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
Oh really? You are stating and representing that we have a top pp. I am showing you that the margin between tenth and twentieth is razor thin. That is putting things in perspective.

Cherry picking parameters to suit your argument is the opposite of perspective. Are you a used car salesman by chance?
Our PP is ranked 10th in the league, and I stated as such.

As for the used car salesman bit, it is painfully obvious you can't be an adult in this conversation, as multiple examples in this thread indicate, so I'll heed your advice about the ignore list.

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11-13-2009, 05:13 PM
  #171
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Originally Posted by Ol' Jase View Post
Our PP is ranked 10th in the league, and I stated as such.

As for the used car salesman bit, it is painfully obvious you can't be an adult in this conversation, as multiple examples in this thread indicate, so I'll heed your advice about the ignore list.
Suit yourself.

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11-13-2009, 07:30 PM
  #172
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Some of this PP analysis is a little misleading. Merely quoting PP pts 60/mins is doing Hemsky a big favor. He's a PP QB that possesses the puck much of the time, all the plays go through him. If theres a goal scored by anybody on that PP Hemsky usually gets a pt.

AS I've mentioned before Gagner typically has the puck less but distributes it more and its a more active PP and harder to defend with the puck going to different players and the box having to defend.
Its more downlow as well and less halfboard static as a Hemsky PP.

To me the real numbers that matter on a PP is the GFON/60mins that the player is on the ice for.

Gagner, last year, as a 19yr old, despite having mostly 2nd unit PP to work with EXCEEDED Hemskys PP production.

Gagner was at 6.50GFON/60mins. Hemsky 6.30GFON/60mins.


Hemsky even had the huge advantage last year of working with Souray who basically made the Hemsky PP click. Sourays GFON/60mins was 6.72. The GFOFF(when he wasn't on the PP) plummeted to 4.13.

Nobody was more critical to this PP success last year than Souray. His ON/OFF #'s indicate he literally drove the PP results.

Despite Hemsky's fancy pirouettes.

In anycase why would people use pts stats to analyze a players prowess when a PP unit is a unit in a team sport and that all that matters is not who got more pts but the overall productivity of a unit. GF60mins is just a better more complete stat to use and even to interpret how well a QB is utilizing the PP.

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11-14-2009, 11:36 PM
  #173
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Some of this PP analysis is a little misleading. Merely quoting PP pts 60/mins is doing Hemsky a big favor. He's a PP QB that possesses the puck much of the time, all the plays go through him. If theres a goal scored by anybody on that PP Hemsky usually gets a pt.

AS I've mentioned before Gagner typically has the puck less but distributes it more and its a more active PP and harder to defend with the puck going to different players and the box having to defend.
Its more downlow as well and less halfboard static as a Hemsky PP.

To me the real numbers that matter on a PP is the GFON/60mins that the player is on the ice for.

Gagner, last year, as a 19yr old, despite having mostly 2nd unit PP to work with EXCEEDED Hemskys PP production.

Gagner was at 6.50GFON/60mins. Hemsky 6.30GFON/60mins.


Hemsky even had the huge advantage last year of working with Souray who basically made the Hemsky PP click. Sourays GFON/60mins was 6.72. The GFOFF(when he wasn't on the PP) plummeted to 4.13.

Nobody was more critical to this PP success last year than Souray. His ON/OFF #'s indicate he literally drove the PP results.

Despite Hemsky's fancy pirouettes.

In anycase why would people use pts stats to analyze a players prowess when a PP unit is a unit in a team sport and that all that matters is not who got more pts but the overall productivity of a unit. GF60mins is just a better more complete stat to use and even to interpret how well a QB is utilizing the PP.
If you are going to use GFON/60 as a analysis of unit success (which I applaud you for, as this is a unit based stat) you have to take into account quality of opposition. Hemsky, and Souray for that matter, play against the top PK units of most teams. Secondly, PTS/60 on the PP is quite indicative of PP production, even more so when you see that Hemsky produces at an elite level when it comes to primary assists/60. (He ranked 11th in this league wide last year).

It's not really constructive to assign blame to one person when looking at stats that are based on unit evaluation. GFON/60 doesn't tell any specifics when it comes to individual play without being able to also analyze many more parameters. One of those being player combinations used, and how frequently players that are analyzed play together.

Take a look at this link:

http://www.dobberhockey.com/frozenpo...ations&sent=go

You'll notice that Gagner and Hemsky are not playing on exclusive units at all times. In terms of a combined percentage of events, Gagner and Hemsky are together more often than not.

Here's forward unit point production:

http://www.dobberhockey.com/frozenpo...uction&sent=go

Again, you can see the production, and how Hemsky and Gagner are very commonly together when there is PP production.

Dobbers a great sight for this sort of unit analysis, and I think you might find it very interesting if you are intrigued by how units produce, which is the main aspect of the advanced statistics that is most commonly overlooked or ignored outright. What is needed to give even a better look is total ice time players play with one another in PP and PK situations. There is a site that does it for ES, but none for special teams that I can find as of yet. I'm sure it will come in time.

As for the difference in Souray's GFON and GFOFF ratings, the main rationale behind this is the fact that he spends much more PP time on the ice than off it (TOI/60 - 4.52, TOF/60 - 2.15). No other player has this sort of On/Off ratio, as well it should be as he is the primary PP weapon.

Finally, if you are looking at GFON/60 as an indicator of production in comparison to GFOFF/60 with the primary PP players, the weak link is easy to find. However, out of a bit of respect (and mercy) that player shall remain nameless.


Last edited by Ol' Jase: 11-15-2009 at 12:06 AM.
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