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Old
11-21-2009, 12:09 PM
  #26
Vanek20
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Originally Posted by FleeingKostitsyn View Post
So we'd have a 1 1/3 line team stuck in cap hell

In fact, a 1 1/3 line team with only one PPG player. You can't have just 4 top6 forwards unless one or two of them are superstars.


I think a realistic option, especially if the team is out of the playoffs at the deadline would be to trade away one of Spacek, Gill or even Hamrlik to a contender. With Markov in our weakness is definetely at forward, especially since we have rookie defensemen who are going to need roster spots next year but have no clear top6 forwards ready for NHL duty.

I also wish we had signed Gill 1 year and Mara 2 years.
I hope we trade gill at the deadline and resign mara at the end of the year... Also, trade gomez.

We need our Ds we have to keep Spacek and hammer they are playing great against the toplines... Imagine with markov back
Markov OByrne
Hamrlik Spacek
Mara Gorges

WoW

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Old
11-21-2009, 12:11 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Next Best Thing View Post
Mara is extremely underrated, he is our best signing on defense.. I wouldnt get rid of him.
Mara is doing a really great job and he should have been the one that got a 2 year deal instead of Gill but Whatever I'm not the one making these decisions.Anyways point is if people want Mara back witch I'm not against,then that means another full year of Weber and Subban in Hamilton.It wouldn't be a really bad thing for them but we all know how many people wanna see PK up here real bad

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11-21-2009, 12:16 PM
  #28
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I think that people expecting Gill and Spacek gone next season are in for a surprise. I find it highly unlikely that either will be dealt.

So if next year we look like (by cap hit):

Markov - Hamrlik
Spacek - Gill
Georges - O'Byrne

I just do not see where Mara fits here. 7th spot will probably be reserved for one of our rookies such as Carle/Weber since injuries will happen.

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Old
11-21-2009, 12:27 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by GoodKiwi View Post
I think that people expecting Gill and Spacek gone next season are in for a surprise. I find it highly unlikely that either will be dealt.

So if next year we look like (by cap hit):

Markov - Hamrlik
Spacek - Gill
Georges - O'Byrne

I just do not see where Mara fits here. 7th spot will probably be reserved for one of our rookies such as Carle/Weber since injuries will happen.
I agree with your lineup, but I do think we ought to keep Mara instead of Spacek, simply because we have a Similar D in Markov who is top 5 in the league and does the exact same things only he isn't a kitty, did u notice the way Space always throws the puck away when he's the target of a hit? I don't see that with Markov, in fact Marky even has a mean streak of his own.. he always got in the face of Sundin a la pest in a way. Spacek is soft as butter, so I vote we keep Mara instead of him, who actually brings something the team desperatly lacks, TOUGHNESS and... beard.

Also Subban will start with the team next year I think that's almost a guarantee, look how well he's playing, carrying the 'Dogs right now...

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Old
11-21-2009, 12:32 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodKiwi View Post
I think that people expecting Gill and Spacek gone next season are in for a surprise. I find it highly unlikely that either will be dealt.

So if next year we look like (by cap hit):

Markov - Hamrlik
Spacek - Gill
Georges - O'Byrne

I just do not see where Mara fits here. 7th spot will probably be reserved for one of our rookies such as Carle/Weber since injuries will happen.
We kind of need one of Gill or Mara next season. Markov Spacek works well because Markov does not need a stay at home dman to play with him, but the 2nd and 3rd pairing should both have one big dman. OB will be one... I guess Gill the other.

I would trade Josh Gorges at the deadline if we would get something good in return. I would think he has good value on the market. Next season, one of Weber or Subban will be ready and lets face it, they will both be more offensively aware than Gorges.

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Old
11-21-2009, 12:39 PM
  #31
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We pretty much NEED the cap to go up next year, and significantly over 2 years.

If not, we will be in trouble, if the cap goes down at all, we'll be in a LOT of trouble.

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Old
11-21-2009, 12:40 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by MikeCammalleri View Post
We kind of need one of Gill or Mara next season. Markov Spacek works well because Markov does not need a stay at home dman to play with him, but the 2nd and 3rd pairing should both have one big dman. OB will be one... I guess Gill the other.

I would trade Josh Gorges at the deadline if we would get something good in return. I would think he has good value on the market. Next season, one of Weber or Subban will be ready and lets face it, they will both be more offensively aware than Gorges.
If anything it is my opinion that we need more defensively aware defensemen (and that sounded odd). I would not deal Gorges for that very reason. Not to say that our top three are bad defensively, but between Markov/Hamrlik/Spacek we should have more than enough offense. Spacek is having an average season offensively so far, but as someone who watched/watches Buffalo A LOT, I know what he is capable of on PP. It is way too early to write him off after 20 odd games. I don't have a problem with a rookie in our lineup, but I don't see him replacing what Gorges brings to our D immediately. He is one of those guys that could be slotted on any pairing and not look out of place. We need more of that imho.

And between Gill and Mara I would pick the latter. I just do not think Gill will be traded, that's all. And maybe I do not pay enough attention to Mara but he seems invisible on most nights yet his +/- is team's worst. Not sure what's up with that.

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Old
11-21-2009, 12:48 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodKiwi View Post
If anything it is my opinion that we need more defensively aware defensemen (and that sounded odd). I would not deal Gorges for that very reason. Not to say that our top three are bad defensively, but between Markov/Hamrlik/Spacek we should have more than enough offense. Spacek is having an average season offensively so far, but as someone who watched/watches Buffalo A LOT, I know what he is capable of on PP. It is way too early to write him off after 20 odd games. I don't have a problem with a rookie in our lineup, but I don't see him replacing what Gorges brings to our D immediately. He is one of those guys that could be slotted on any pairing and not look out of place. We need more of that imho.

And between Gill and Mara I would pick the latter. I just do not think Gill will be traded, that's all. And maybe I do not pay enough attention to Mara but he seems invisible on most nights yet his +/- is team's worst. Not sure what's up with that.
I agree... I have a feeling that if Spacek was back on the left, he would be able to contribute much more to the team offensively. Josh does bring a lot to the table, but our defense right now is terrible offensively. I guess its because Markov is missing though.

I would much rather have Mara over Gill, but we have Gill signed for two seasons, so there is a good chance that Mara will be the odd one out. I think we would need to keep one of them though, and Gill seems more like the likely candidate as he is also the Assistant captain.

If we lose Mara, we will be missing a RD, and I think Spacek would play infinitely better on LD. It's a shame we can't use him to his fullest yet . He was a good signing.

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Old
11-21-2009, 12:54 PM
  #34
Etienne
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Signed players for next season:

Cammy - Gomez - Gionta
Pacioretty - XXXX - AK46
XXXX - XXXX - Moen
XXXX - XXXX - Laraque

Markov - O'Byrne
Hammer - Spacek
Gill - Gorges

XXXX
XXXX

Total Cap hit: 46,582

RFAs : Price, Halak, Carle, Belle, Sergei K., Stewart, D'agostini, Chipchura, Pyatt, Latendresse, Lapierre

UFAs : Plekanec, Metropolit, Mara, Bergeron, Leach

The cap situation is not too bad. 10 millions to sign Price, Plekanec and a bunch of 3rd/4th liners (we have PLENTY of cheap young ones). If someone blows up the bank, it'll be because they are playing out of their mind.

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Old
11-21-2009, 12:59 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Next Best Thing View Post
I agree with your lineup, but I do think we ought to keep Mara instead of Spacek, simply because we have a Similar D in Markov who is top 5 in the league and does the exact same things only he isn't a kitty, did u notice the way Space always throws the puck away when he's the target of a hit? I don't see that with Markov, in fact Marky even has a mean streak of his own.. he always got in the face of Sundin a la pest in a way. Spacek is soft as butter, so I vote we keep Mara instead of him, who actually brings something the team desperatly lacks, TOUGHNESS and... beard.

Also Subban will start with the team next year I think that's almost a guarantee, look how well he's playing, carrying the 'Dogs right now...
Spacek plays on the wrong side. When the puck is along the board, he has to turn his back and use his backhand. He's not used to it and they ask him to do it against top lines. So, I dont think we can really judge him as a player.

If I'm signing a player at 3.8?, I would do all I can do maximize the investment. And it start by playing him were he played all his career.

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Old
11-21-2009, 01:01 PM
  #36
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A crappy team in cap hell, these next 5 years are going to be fun.

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Old
11-21-2009, 01:25 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by GoodKiwi View Post
You save 1mil by replacing him with a rookie such as Carle.
That wouldn't necessarily be making us better.

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Old
11-21-2009, 01:28 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Etienne View Post
Signed players for next season:

Cammy - Gomez - Gionta
Pacioretty - XXXX - AK46
XXXX - XXXX - Moen
XXXX - XXXX - Laraque

Markov - O'Byrne
Hammer - Spacek
Gill - Gorges

XXXX
XXXX

Total Cap hit: 46,582

RFAs : Price, Halak, Carle, Belle, Sergei K., Stewart, D'agostini, Chipchura, Pyatt, Latendresse, Lapierre

UFAs : Plekanec, Metropolit, Mara, Bergeron, Leach

The cap situation is not too bad. 10 millions to sign Price, Plekanec and a bunch of 3rd/4th liners (we have PLENTY of cheap young ones). If someone blows up the bank, it'll be because they are playing out of their mind.
if Price and Pleks both re-sign for 3.5M$ (which is VERY optimistic, imo), that leaves us with ~3M$ to sign 7 players...
Halak is bound to get a raise, so he's looking at AT LEAST 1.5M$, leaving us with 1.5M$ for 6 players...

Lats, Lapierre, if they get no raise, get 1.5M$...

4 players left, with 0$ left...

if the cap goes up 1-2M$, we can get those young guys signed, just under the cap.


So we might be ok, but we'll need a lot of luck (signing young rfa's at bargain basement prices and a cap increase), and it means that we lose Mara, Bergeron(big loss), Metropolit, and that we have no room to IMPROVE the roster with even 1 UFA, or any trade that would add salary.

that's not a lot to be hopeful for, moving forward...

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Old
11-21-2009, 02:06 PM
  #39
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Ok.. Something confuses me when I read this thread. A lot of people are saying Mara, Gill and maybe Spacek could go this off season. 1st- personally I'd rather keep Mara and Spacek, Mara has been a blessing for us this year, Spacek hasn't had the chance to play with Markov at all (PP,PK or 5on5).. Gill, well, we all knew what was coming there. 2nd- if we lose those 3, who fills in? Markov,Gorges,O'Byrne,Gill,Hamrlik would be our top 5, Weber, Subban, Leach? IMO Markov,Spacek,Mara,Gorges,Hamrlik are my top 5 for next year. Then at the deadline either deal Hamrlik or convince him to resign for less, and giving the $$$ we save on Hamr to Markov. Maybe its just me, but any top 6 that has Gill in it I don't want any part of!

Forwards, well, a couple weeks ago I'd say trade Ak, but he seems to be pulling his head out of ass, slowly, but still coming around. BGL can go bye bye. Metro I like and would offer the same or at least see if he is willing to take a pay cut to stay here. Lats, he is another like AK, but his head seems to be sliding deeper inside his ass so he can be traded. Pleks, maybe he won't bend us over and **** us like we get ***** everytime we see Gomez's contract, he seems to actually like playing here and seems like he wants to stay (hometown discount?) 3.250-3.5 @ 4yrs..

Price.. I want him locked up!! For a long time, screw this 3 year contract crap, 3-3.5 @ 5yrs or 4-4.5 @ 8-10yrs frontloaded.. The KID has once again overcome some pretty crappy play infront of him to reel off some beauty steals for us in the past 3 or 4 games.. Boston game he just took over, Carolina game he saved our *****.

I want to make a side note if I may.. I LOVE my habs to death!! But going INTO Washington without Markov, Gill, Gionta and then having Gomez go down in the 3rd, I think we played one hell of a game!! EVERYBODY stepped up!! Plus O'Byrnes 1st game back, and he played as well as he did, this guy IMO has finally turned the corner on becoming an extremely good top 4 guy.

Well as usual, that's my rant, some will agree, some will disagree, but everyone is entitled to their own opinions. But as for the haters and wannabe habs fans on this board, whatever happened to cheering for your team win or lose? What happened to patience? Last time I checked, we were still the last Canadian team to lift the cup. No cup this year, no cup next year, but I'd say in 2 years if we keep this core together and infuse with some of our prospects ( after giving them ample time to adjust to the speed of the A before bringing them up ) we will have some nice chemistry going and the system will be second nature. Patience guys Patience!!

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Old
11-21-2009, 02:18 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Steadfast View Post
A crappy team in cap hell, these next 5 years are going to be fun.
Exactly, we might have enough space to fit Plekanec and Price salaries (probably not Halak's) next year...

But really, will this even help the team to be successfull?

We need to throw a crazy contract offer to Kovalchuk and trade guys like AK and Gionta (Gomez would be perfect, but it's almost impossible...) and replace their salaries with Kovalchuk's.

A contract along the lines of 115mil over 15 years, heavily front loaded might get him, but I think he'll be a Leaf next year.

Anyway you look at it, Gomez insane trade is really putting us in deep trouble and for a long time. Add to that Gionta's contract and there's a reason why I call for Gainey's firing since july 1st.

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Old
11-21-2009, 02:39 PM
  #41
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Attendance is down over 600 a game league wide (17,476 last year to 16,854 this year)so don't be surprised if the cap goes down next season.

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Old
11-21-2009, 03:07 PM
  #42
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I will be shocked if Gainey disposes of any of his signings. I think the methods to retain our important players are there. But I'm not confident they'll be used.

I think a Jay Leach for $500k can replace Hal Gill. I think a canned ham could replace Laraque. We can save well over $2M there, which would get a nice new contract for Plekanec or Price. (I actually believe Price will be able to get more than most people here seem to... the Habs don't usually get too many bargains, and Gainey isn't usually stingy with the guys he thinks are keepers. Unless Price falls apart again, I don't see him getting less than $4M.)

But I don't think Gainey actually does anything with Gill or Laraque, they'll be back next year.

I guess we save $1M replacing Mara with a rookie. Probably we can scrape together enough to get Price his new deal no matter what. Plekanec is the real danger zone, IMHO.

That said, the UFA Scrap Heap is potentially our saving grace. If we can't pony up $5M or whatever to keep Plekanec, well obviously that hurts. But there could be a silver lining. If we're the team that hits the Prospal/Lang/Afinogenov jackpot, maybe we get two players to plug the loss of Plekanec. Not first choicers, not players without risk. Not players as good as Plekanec, probably. But the overall downgrade there might not be *that* huge, especially if we improve depth in the process.

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Old
11-21-2009, 04:21 PM
  #43
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Scott Gomez contract makes me wanna puke everytime I see it.

I said it since day one that this guy was an underachiever scrub. He is ruining the cap space right now. Worst trade by Bob Gainey and god knows that Gainey had many, but this one tops them all.

I would try to ship away Gomez to Alaska, for a bag of pucks or whatever he can get for that deadwood.

The sooner he ships him out, the better it will be for this team.


Plekanec >>>>>>>>> Gomez and it's not even close !!



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Old
11-21-2009, 07:44 PM
  #44
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Does Gill have a NTC?

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Old
11-21-2009, 08:17 PM
  #45
E = CH²
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
if Price and Pleks both re-sign for 3.5M$ (which is VERY optimistic, imo), that leaves us with ~3M$ to sign 7 players...
Halak is bound to get a raise, so he's looking at AT LEAST 1.5M$, leaving us with 1.5M$ for 6 players...

...
Yeah Plekanec signing at 3.5M is not happening.

Also, Price signing for that much would stupid on our end because that would mean it would be a 1-2 years contract at the most.

Looking at Gainey's track record, he'll sign Price to a short deal as cheap as he can get him. Then he'll probably lose Plekanec because he won't negotiate during the season and Plekanec will just test the market and get more than we can give him.

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Old
11-21-2009, 08:29 PM
  #46
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Here's some harsh realities
Hockey is a business
Players are assets
There's a salary cap
and like it or not there are unwritten rules

No player signed this past off-season will go anywhere, any time between now and the end of this coming summer.
If you think we struggled to sign Free Agents in the past - Move Hall Gill at christmas and watch things unfold.
(If Hall Gill is used properly he is a valuable asset)
If they've signed multi-year deals get ready to accept their presence till near the end of their contracts.

Whether by a little or a lot the cap will likely go down next year.
Remember the NHLPA invoked a clause in the CBA to boost the cap by a marginal amount

Price is a young RFA, no way he gets "millions" his time will come for that. IMHO 3-3.25 million likely to be his ceiling

Plekanecs is a "wild card" no telling whats in his head, but it is very apparent that he's playing for a contract. My fear is: does the little girl return next year?

Laraque should be put to pasture in any way Gainey sees fit.
Latendresse picks it up or he's bottom line fodder
Lapierre (see his buddy above)
Metropolit should be resigned, depending on salary demands
Mara I wish he stays but with youngsters in the system waiting to take spots - unlikely
Hamrlik just might have the greatest value at the deadline a la Rivet, but with a year left even thats a crap shoot
MAB thanks for the insurance policy buh-bye
For the most part its our young guys that have let us down not the new ones - irregardless of salary

Just one man's opinion

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Old
11-22-2009, 12:27 AM
  #47
Miller Time
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
Yeah Plekanec signing at 3.5M is not happening.

Also, Price signing for that much would stupid on our end because that would mean it would be a 1-2 years contract at the most.

Looking at Gainey's track record, he'll sign Price to a short deal as cheap as he can get him. Then he'll probably lose Plekanec because he won't negotiate during the season and Plekanec will just test the market and get more than we can give him.
hey man, I've been taking so much heat around here for being "negative" and a "hater", I was just trying out the "optimist" hat...

I completely agree with you.

Reality is that Pleks, on the open market, will get ~5M$, and there really isn't much reason for him to be motivated to give the organization a "discount" to stay here. Not too mention that, if Gainey sticks to his m.o, negotiations won't start till the summer, and by then Pleks would be crazy not to wait.

Price should be locked up long-term (either him or halak, but Price clearly has the higher end potential), but again, you're probably right... gainey's m.o would be to lowball him as much as possible and come to terms on a short term deal that takes him to UFA.

sigh... I hope Gainey surprises us both!

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Old
11-22-2009, 06:38 AM
  #48
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hey man, I've been taking so much heat around here for being "negative" and a "hater", I was just trying out the "optimist" hat...

I completely agree with you.

Reality is that Pleks, on the open market, will get ~5M$, and there really isn't much reason for him to be motivated to give the organization a "discount" to stay here. Not too mention that, if Gainey sticks to his m.o, negotiations won't start till the summer, and by then Pleks would be crazy not to wait.

Price should be locked up long-term (either him or halak, but Price clearly has the higher end potential), but again, you're probably right... gainey's m.o would be to lowball him as much as possible and come to terms on a short term deal that takes him to UFA.

sigh... I hope Gainey surprises us both!
I think Tomas would take 4-4.5M from the Habs if it were offered for a 4 year deal in January. He likes it here and feels appreciated, but he is honest with himself enough to know he has occasionally played below his best and that he isn't a $6M kind of guy...yet.

I think the ideal term to sign Carey Price for is 3 years. This is NOT the kind of kid you give a 12 year contract to. He hasn't shown enough maturity and steady professionalism yet for the team to be sure that he would continue to work his butt off with something like $60M coming in.

Three years means that the term would end ONE YEAR before he goes UFA. He could be extended anytime that final year and would not have to wait until January, if the Habs liked what they saw up to then and wanted to lock him up longer, but at worst, if the next contract is only negotiated after this one ends, it would still be with one year of RFA status left, meaning less of a gun to Gainey's head.

If it were me, TODAY, I would try to sign Carey for 3 years for $10M, maybe a BIT more on the $$. If Carey isn't interested in that kind of medium-term security, then it would have to be a one or two year deal with even less $$ per year.

Something like
One year $2.5M
2nd year $3.5M
3rd year $4.0M

Carey chooses the term.

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Old
11-22-2009, 07:10 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
Mara is doing a really great job and he should have been the one that got a 2 year deal instead of Gill but Whatever I'm not the one making these decisions.Anyways point is if people want Mara back witch I'm not against,then that means another full year of Weber and Subban in Hamilton.It wouldn't be a really bad thing for them but we all know how many people wanna see PK up here real bad
Agreed

<------ one of them

but mara is HUGE, and commands respect in front of the net, sort of like how Quintal (la vache perdue) stabilized our D years ago, and doesn't create as many turnovers

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Old
11-22-2009, 08:09 AM
  #50
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There was a lot of talk that the Gomez trade was the enabler for Gionta and Cammalleri to be signed, and that it's all bundled together in a nice tight package.

If Plekanec becomes unaffordable in Silly Season 2010 will we be allowed to bring that into the Gomez equation?

just want to know the rules.

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