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Old
11-23-2009, 10:28 AM
  #26
onice
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FleeingKostitsyn View Post
Judging their value to the team based on their production after 20 games is extremely premature, especially since they are signed 5 years. Just an example : at 2.7m cap hit Plekanec has the same production as Sidney Crosby who has 3x the cap hit, I guess the Pens should trade him for Latendresse (he's a grosbonhomme).
Except Gomez & Gionta have track records. they are what they are. Chances are they're not gonna be any better than their track records. those two didn't pop into existence the minute they started playing for the Habs.

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11-23-2009, 10:55 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by onice View Post
Except Gomez & Gionta have track records. they are what they are. Chances are they're not gonna be any better than their track records. those two didn't pop into existence the minute they started playing for the Habs.
Yes, and their track record also indicate they are better than 0.5 PPG players.

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Old
11-23-2009, 11:00 AM
  #28
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You can't really trade Gionta after signing him in the UFA. Gainey would get killed.

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Old
11-23-2009, 11:09 AM
  #29
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by onice View Post
I know there was more to those 3 points over the weekend than just the fact that two of our small & overrated players were out of the lineup. That's why I said I was being facetious. But I'll tell you it was a big, big reason.
So, let me get this straight. You're saying the reason we got 3/4pts is because two players from our #1 line were out??..
How can you keep a straight face and claim such a thing?..

You want to know why we won those games??..It's because A.Kost is finally coming around. Not just that, but the brilliance of Price and the good work ethic from our players.
If Andrei is in the same funk as earlier, then take away a few of our goals. Had he started the year playing like this, our position in the standings would have been higher.

We didn't add any bigger player to our roster when they got injured. A.Kost and MaxPac were there before but their game sucked compared to now.
We added guys like Pyatt and White, but they're not being used on the top lines and they're taking away Lats and Lappy's ice time.

We started the year with one big player on top 5, Andrei. As Martin stated, the plan was to find another one to finalize the top6. That's why many were so disappointed with Lats and MaxPac, they were already favored for that position but were unable to clinch it.
MaxPac was coming around playing along side Plek-A.Kost the past couple games, but putting Cammy there once Gomez went down was a no brainer.
So, that top 5 as become a top3 due to injuries. So really, nothing has changed.
Take any of our top 3 out now, and we're all out of luck.

Has nothing to do with having more size.

Quote:
Originally Posted by onice View Post
Bob is the one who claimed his new bunch of guys were gonna be more durable.

I questioned it when he said it and I question it now. How can he make that statement. No one knows what is gonna happen during the year.
Absolutely, you never know what can happen during a season. Before the season started, had I told you to tell who'd have missed the most games by the quarter of the season, Gaborik or Ovechkin, what answer would you have given??..

If you look at our players gone:
Brisebois----Retired. Old.
Dandenault----You see him more often on V tele than RDS. Unemployed by nhl teams.
Bouillon----Missed 30ish Games last year. Never played a full season in his 10year career.
Koivu----A fatigued body getting older, no need to go over his health issue, we all know it. Old.
Kovalev----Getting older, still was offered a contract but went the greedy way. Was forced to go on vacation last year and isn't burning it up in Ottawa. Old.
Higgins----Injured almost every year, from 1st liner potential captain to 4th liner.
Komisarek----Injured last year because he can't fight. Injured the year before as well. Still, offered a contract but signed with the nemesis for 500K/y more.
Tanguay----Injured, had difficulty finding a contract.
Begin----Great player to have on your team, unfortunately he is battered up. Wish him all the best though. Old.
Kostopoulos----Got a better and bigger player in Moen. Was great for us though, so wish him well like Begin.

Now, let's look the new ones:

Gomez----In 10years, most games he missed in a year was 10.
Cammy----Missed 23Games since being a regular, 4years ago.
Gionta----Only one season where he was injured for 20ish games.
Moen----Bigger and Better Kostopoulos.
Gill----Gotten for his experience. Still, he hasn't been injured often over his 12year career.
Mara----Same as Gill.
Spacek----Brought in for his shot on PP next to Markov. Sadly, that pair was barely tried out.


You don't have to be a genius to realize the new group has significantly missed less games than the previous one. So, shouldn't be hard to understand we got younger up front and less likely to injure.
Doesn't mean we weren't going to suffer some injuries, but if you're to bet before hand which group is the healthiest, you really have to be a moron to say the first one.

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Old
11-23-2009, 11:22 AM
  #30
Jiggernaut
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onice View Post
I'm wondering if some posters having reading difficulties or if I'm having trouble expressing myself. I'll assume it's my fault.

I NEVER SAID BOB SHOULD FORESEE INJURIES.

Is that clear?

Bob is the one who claimed his new bunch of guys were gonna be more durable.

I questioned it when he said it and I question it now. How can he make that statement. No one knows what is gonna happen during the year.

I hope that is clear.
Yes, you are correct in your statement that no one can see and predict the future. How enlightening to bring this to our attention.

And you question of how he can make such a statement was already answered by a previous poster. Simply you use the information from the past to make an assessment about the future. The guys that were brought in have a history of missing very few games over the last 4 seasons. A sign of durability, and a bit of luck as always. You know kind of in the way that Malkin got 100+ points the last two seasons. What prediction do you think most people would give him for points this year prior to the start of this season? ~200, ~100 or ~50 points?

Duribility of a player can just be seen to some as just 'luck' whether you get injured or not. In some cases it is (ie: puck off the foot (gionta, gill), skate blade to the foot(markov)), and in some cases it's not. Injuries happen a lot due to one's conditioning, physical fitness levels, and age. Injuries occur at a greater extent for tired and players that don't maintain peak physical conditioning. Gainey and Co. have insight into this type of information on how players train during the offseason, season, days off, etc (I know, it's hard to believe eh?). So given you have a 34 year old with a history of injuries and a 27 year old that doesn't, who's most likely to get hurt more often in the future?

So it's really quite simple and easy to understand how Gainey could make the statement that it was the goal to be more durable this season. Given these factors and their insight, it's quite clear.

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Old
11-23-2009, 11:48 AM
  #31
onice
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
So, let me get this straight. You're saying the reason we got 3/4pts is because two players from our #1 line were out??..
How can you keep a straight face and claim such a thing?..

You want to know why we won those games??..It's because A.Kost is finally coming around. Not just that, but the brilliance of Price and the good work ethic from our players.
First thing you quote me and then you proceed to misunderstand me. Good move. I didn't say it was the reason, I said it was a big reason.

Second, we won the game according to you because of Andrei & Price. Price has been good for while now, Nashville he was brilliant but we still lost. So he was not the difference maker. Let's move to your second point Andrei. So you're saying that Andrei waking up is worth more than having Gomez and Gionta in the line up?

No Gomez & Gionta in the line up makes us a small and weak team. I don't really care what kind of heart Gionta has he's still only 5'6', maybe 5'7" in Bob's fantasies. But that's not a problem,. What is the problem is that you have Gionta 5'6" on a team with Metro, Cammy, Gomez & PLeks. That is the problem. Couple that with the fact that Gomez is an over rated hockey player and you have a serious problem. You remove Gomez & Gionta and all of suddenly your team has size that stands in front of the opposing goalie instead of skating by or gettting pushed past. The Detroit game was the first time in awhile I saw our team going into the corners and fighting for the puck and coming out with it.

Anyway, I think I've exhausted this subject. We may have a few more games to play without those two players. Let's see how we do in those games and then let's compare the results when they come back.

Fair?

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Old
11-23-2009, 12:02 PM
  #32
Poulet Kostopoulos
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Wait for Cammy to (God forbid) fail to score for a couple of games in a row and those same people will include him in this argument of being too small, overrated and overpaid. And once Gomez and Gionta start producing again, the whining will stop... for a while.

And for the record, I much prefer a Gomez and/or Gionta in my team than Kovy with a giant ego and questionable work ethic. The G's are miles ahead of Kovy in terms of being a team player.


Last edited by Poulet Kostopoulos: 11-23-2009 at 12:15 PM.
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Old
11-23-2009, 12:06 PM
  #33
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except we would have not got cam if we had not gotten these players

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Old
11-23-2009, 12:47 PM
  #34
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by onice View Post
First thing you quote me and then you proceed to misunderstand me. Good move. I didn't say it was the reason, I said it was a big reason.
A BIG reason= the main reason. You're playing on words that matter very little.
You're saying it's a big reason, I'm saying it has 0 to do with it because Gomez and Gionta were replaced by A.Kost and Plek. Those two players were already there before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by onice View Post
Second, we won the game according to you because of Andrei & Price. Price has been good for while now, Nashville he was brilliant but we still lost. So he was not the difference maker. Let's move to your second point Andrei. So you're saying that Andrei waking up is worth more than having Gomez and Gionta in the line up?
No. We won the game for a number of reasons. Price saved 50 shots in Nashville. We couldn't buy a goal there. You want him to go score a goal as well??..
He's the main reason why we got a point out of the Detroit game.
Price has given us a chance to win or steal points for a good stretch. There's a reason why he's the 2nd star of the week according to NHL.

Andrei isn't worth more. We won games with Gomez and Gionta while A.Kost was in a black hole.
I'm saying his awakening is well timed as it gives us a good trio to rely on just like we only had 1 trio for the most part of the year.

But our offensive depth is still extremely poor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by onice View Post
No Gomez & Gionta in the line up makes us a small and weak team. I don't really care what kind of heart Gionta has he's still only 5'6', maybe 5'7" in Bob's fantasies. But that's not a problem,. What is the problem is that you have Gionta 5'6" on a team with Metro, Cammy, Gomez & PLeks. That is the problem. Couple that with the fact that Gomez is an over rated hockey player and you have a serious problem. You remove Gomez & Gionta and all of suddenly your team has size that stands in front of the opposing goalie instead of skating by or gettting pushed past. The Detroit game was the first time in awhile I saw our team going into the corners and fighting for the puck and coming out with it.
Plek..23pts 23GP.
Cammy..11G in 23GP. (40G pace)
Gionta..8G 19GP. (35G pace)
Gomez..11Pts 22GP..disappointing production but still played well overall.
Metro..10pts 17GP..(50ish pts pace)..At that pace, he'd have a career year by 16-17pts.

None of our small forwards are the problem. Except Gomez, they've all produced at a good/great pace.

The reason we were battling with Detroit in the corners was because Kronwall was taking out of the game after 10min and except him they have no big punishing Dman. Not only that, but that meant they played with 5 Dmen through the whole game. Lidstrom is still amazingly great, but at 40, fatigued will take its toll on him during a long game with a Dman short.

Again, you fail to acknowledge that the guys creating the offensive chances were A.Kost-Plek-Cammy.
That line was tried earlier this year when A.Kost was still in his funk and couldn't produce a thing. But now they are because Gomez and Gionta are out, so Ryan White, Chipper and Laraque are somehow the difference maker because they add size to our roster.
Doesn't matter that they don't do anything offensively, and they play about 10, 5, 4min respectively. Point is, on paper, our team is a bit heavier and bigger right?...
Your theory is weak. Our key players are still the exact same, but instead of having 4 working and 1 not, we now have 3working.

Quote:
Originally Posted by onice View Post
Anyway, I think I've exhausted this subject. We may have a few more games to play without those two players. Let's see how we do in those games and then let's compare the results when they come back.

Fair?
The assessment will be the same.
A.Kost-Plek-Cammy need to produce, the Defense needs to play solid and our goalkeeping as to be brilliant. All three of those things need to work otherwise we'll lose.

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Old
11-23-2009, 01:30 PM
  #35
impudent_lowlife
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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
How can it be my GM v. yours if you don't suggest a replacement GM?

You really shouldn't insult Gainey unless you can bring some solutions or things you'd do differently. That way in the rare occasion that it happens you can come back here and tell everyone how much smarter you are then Gainey. Just saying he sucks is lazy and won't earn you any cred here.
From what I've read so far, the only solutions proffered are getting rid of Gomez and Gionta for 2 players bigger and cheaper. Gainey's made mistakes for sure but as a spectator of this debate, I'd like the anti-Gainey camp to come up with a suitable replacement.

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Old
11-23-2009, 02:00 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by impudent_lowlife View Post
From what I've read so far, the only solutions proffered are getting rid of Gomez and Gionta for 2 players bigger and cheaper. Gainey's made mistakes for sure but as a spectator of this debate, I'd like the anti-Gainey camp to come up with a suitable replacement.
It will never happen.
The Anti-Gainey camp complains no matter what he does.

When he took over the team he could not attract quality free agents to Montreal. People complained that he could only land players like Bonk, Samsonov, Johnson etc..

Now that he has improved the franchise's respect around the league & can sign or trade for great players, people complain :
Tanguay was soft, Gionta is too small, Gomez is overpaid, Gill is slow
etc...

He is condemned no matter what he does.

If he loses players for nothing in the offseason instead of trading them at the deadline, he is a fool. If he trades players at the deadline when we are in the hunt for a playoff spot, he is fool.

If he lets young players stay in Hamilton, he is discouraging them & cannot develop talent. If he brings them up to the big team and they fail to produce, he is rushing them & hurting their development.

The only consistent argument you will get from the Gainey bashers is that they know better than him what should be done.

The only logical argument you will get from them is that it would be nice to have some more size on the top 2 lines. This I can agree with. Why not try out Travis Moen with Gomez & Gionta ?

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Old
11-23-2009, 02:00 PM
  #37
Kosti46
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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
You know, these threads are only good for creating more animosity and pitting fans against each other while rooting for the same team. For that reason I'll reserve comment on your post and hope others don't fall for this my player v. your player bull.
Very good awareness on your part for seeing the underlying pattern arising in this thread.



I agree. What would happen if all of us HF Habs fans actually put positive energy out to the Habs players by thinking positive thoughts and positive emotions about them and helped them all play better with all the positive energy we sent them.

Every thought you think and every emotion you feel sends energy to the people you think about.

We could actually HELP out players to play better. What a powerful thing that would create to assist our team instead of putting a large anchor of negativity around their necks that drags down our players and makes it more difficult to play as well as they can.

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Old
11-23-2009, 02:14 PM
  #38
The Pleks Dispenser
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seems like onice is 12y.o... and im being generous
he also stated the obvious : peter mueller would save our team

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Old
11-23-2009, 02:51 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Kosti46 View Post
Very good awareness on your part for seeing the underlying pattern arising in this thread.



I agree. What would happen if all of us HF Habs fans actually put positive energy out to the Habs players by thinking positive thoughts and positive emotions about them and helped them all play better with all the positive energy we sent them.

Every thought you think and every emotion you feel sends energy to the people you think about.

We could actually HELP out players to play better. What a powerful thing that would create to assist our team instead of putting a large anchor of negativity around their necks that drags down our players and makes it more difficult to play as well as they can.
...you don't actually mean that, right?

Spoil:
SantaClaus isn't real

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Old
11-23-2009, 03:04 PM
  #40
Kirk Muller
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Quote:
Originally Posted by impudent_lowlife View Post
From what I've read so far, the only solutions proffered are getting rid of Gomez and Gionta for 2 players bigger and cheaper. Gainey's made mistakes for sure but as a spectator of this debate, I'd like the anti-Gainey camp to come up with a suitable replacement.
I don't think there really is a "suitable" replacement for the simple reason that no matter who replaces Gainey, there will be people not happy. No one could have imagined Mike Gillis as GM or John Davidson but they are doing fine. There are so many unknown people doing great jobs behind the scenes that no one knows.

Gainey has done a solid job as GM. Nothing special. You honestly can't also say that there aren't other former GM's who couldn't have done as good or better than Gainey.

In my opinion it would probably be beneficial if this franchise went out side the organization and brought someone in with a fresh approach when that time comes.

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Old
11-23-2009, 03:30 PM
  #41
CastroLeRobot
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who would've "thunk" that it's possible to use "thunk" as a past tense to "think" ????

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/thunk

Je vais me coucher moins niaiseux ce soir ;-)

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Old
11-23-2009, 03:33 PM
  #42
Jigger77
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Originally Posted by HF-Addict View Post
...you don't actually mean that, right?

Spoil:
SantaClaus isn't real
Made plenty of sense to me.

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