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Babchuk dominating the KHL

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Old
11-23-2009, 01:54 PM
  #26
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I forgot about Ozolinsh. I was going to put the disclaimer "there's probably other guys I'm forgetting" but Turnoverdovsky certainly gives him a run for the money anyhow. His plus/minus is actually alright for how terrible he was defensively the Cup season.

My memory of former Canes prior to the 2001-2002 season is fuzzy, I have to admit.

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11-23-2009, 02:00 PM
  #27
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There will never, ever, be another defenseman that was as bad in his own zone as Sandis Ozolinsh was his first season here before he discovered he didn't have Adam Foote playing defense for two on his pairing. He scored 44 points but still managed by the grace of suck to be a -25 for us. Inexplicable.
true, but ozo brought what a true offensive d-man brings to the o end. he was an amazing skater who created offense, as with the case with most guys true to this role he created it both ways but id take ozo over babs any day because at least he played his true role well. if i had to have a pp specialist - better ozo than babs. babs is bad in his own end, and isnt good in the offensive side other than the shot.

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11-23-2009, 02:06 PM
  #28
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11-23-2009, 02:20 PM
  #29
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true, but ozo brought what a true offensive d-man brings to the o end. he was an amazing skater who created offense, as with the case with most guys true to this role he created it both ways but id take ozo over babs any day because at least he played his true role well. if i had to have a pp specialist - better ozo than babs. babs is bad in his own end, and isnt good in the offensive side other than the shot.
That's a good summary and anyone simply going by the +/- is missing some important points. Ozolinsh wasn't exactly a stalwart in his own end, though he was far better than Babchuk, but his real downfall was that he roamed all the time, at any time. Many of the GA's were due to odd-man rushes that he helped create the other way in his neverending search for offense vs. someone who just seemed lost in his own zone. He was Pitkanen with no conscience when it came to roving.

The knee-jerk response that he was a terrible D-man around here often loses sight of the fact that much of the criticism should be placed on his gambling style as opposed to major defensive deficiencies. When reined in, like Babcock did in Anaheim, he could be fairly effective defensively in his own end.

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11-23-2009, 02:30 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by bleedgreen View Post
true, but ozo brought what a true offensive d-man brings to the o end. he was an amazing skater who created offense, as with the case with most guys true to this role he created it both ways but id take ozo over babs any day because at least he played his true role well. if i had to have a pp specialist - better ozo than babs. babs is bad in his own end, and isnt good in the offensive side other than the shot.
I would agree to those points, but what made Ozolinsh so disappointing was that he was brought here to be a real game breaking presence on our defense and it never materialized. When we gave up as much as we did to get him, in what fortunately turned out to be a very weak draft on the whole, it would have been nice to see him perform at the level we expected.

I think the 2000-2001 season was by far the worst of his career in the sense that he went from a stacked Avalanche team to a bare bones Carolina squad and didn't adapt properly. It wasn't until we traded him to Florida that he really grasped the ideology of playing at least serviceable defense with weaker offensive teams.

I didn't really mean to compare the merits between Babchuk and Ozolinsh, but in terms of straight up defensive play and who was more frequently skint up .... I think Ozolinsh by virtue of his first pairing reputation takes it in a walk.

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11-23-2009, 02:40 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Caner Soze View Post
Bleedgreen pretty much nails it, although I don't think Babchuk was the worst we ever had, nor do I think Malik was either. Turnoverdovsky probably holds the title for worst in his own end.
You're all blocking out (because I certainly know you're not forgetting) the defensive play of one Josef Melicrap.

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11-23-2009, 02:43 PM
  #32
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you know what I dont get, why do certain players get so much hate here, and certain players get so much love. Does Babs get the adoration from 2 people here because they think he was wronged and misunderstood or do they actually think he's underrated allstar in the making that just hasnt peaked yet? Serious question, what exactly has Babs proved here to earn this undying love and admiration?

Wallin and Ward may not be top flight defensemen but they both came through when the chips were down. Both play through injury, both talk about loyalty for the area team and fans and both are taking an absolute beating in whats probably the twighlight of their NHL careers. So much hate.

What has Babs done besides the 16 goals last regular season? Has he declared any admiration for the franchise who gave him a chance when Chicago gave up on him? How about the fans team mates and coaches that gave him a second chance and cheered him on? I dont think I ever heard the guy say he even liked Raleigh.
i don't see why some people can't stand wallin.
he's a traditional stay-at-home dman who doesn't score at all, but doesn't seem to make the blunders that some of our other blueliners do.
maybe i'm not watching the same games other people are, but i'll take wallin on my team any day.

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11-23-2009, 02:56 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by canesnecu View Post
you know what I dont get, why do certain players get so much hate here, and certain players get so much love. Does Babs get the adoration from 2 people here because they think he was wronged and misunderstood or do they actually think he's underrated allstar in the making that just hasnt peaked yet? Serious question, what exactly has Babs proved here to earn this undying love and admiration?
I think (as my avatar states) he was a missed opportunity. He certainly wasn't a future Norris winner, but he wasn't as bad defensively as some think. Especially when paired with Pitkanen, who can make Babchuk look good, but apparently can't do anything with A. Ward. What does that say?

Babchuk is a dangerous shot from the point. There aren't many players that have the shot he does, especially considering his improved accuracy. To find an asset like that in such a young defenseman is a rare commodity. One that, if not used on the team, should at least be traded for something valuable.


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What has Babs done besides the 16 goals last regular season? Has he declared any admiration for the franchise who gave him a chance when Chicago gave up on him? How about the fans team mates and coaches that gave him a second chance and cheered him on? I dont think I ever heard the guy say he even liked Raleigh.
He thanked Rutherford for a second chance when he returned. During his streak near the end of last season (about the only time the media interviewed him), he talked about how much the playoffs meant to the team, the city, and the fans.

Rather than assume he was disliked by the team and the coaches, can you provide proof of the opposite? Considering the majority of the team wasn't around when he refused to report to the minors, at best, I'd guess they'd have hearsay accounts of what happened from those who were. And if that's true, then I'd much rather be worried why the players are gossiping like schoolgirls than focusing on the game.

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11-23-2009, 04:53 PM
  #34
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Are we seriously comparing Babchuk and AWard, two completly different players. AWard was brought in to play DEFENSE something Babchuk has no concept off. He was brought in b/c JR along with more than half the people on this board, thought he would be a good compliment to Joni Pitkanen.

Grant it, AWard isn't working out like everyone thought he would. But you can't seriously compare the two.

And let's be honest, do ya really think Babchuk would be playing well on this team. Think about his low confidence and that 14 game losing streak. Yeah, Babchuk would have been great.
Considering Aaron Ward's completely atrocious play was a huge part of the 14-game losing streak, I doubt that it happens with Babchuk here instead of him.

Babchuk+Seidenberg >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ward+Alberts.

Pitkanen and Babchuk played great together last season. As did Pitkanen and Seidenberg. What was the point of breaking that up to throw in a wildcard in the form of an old, slow, unskilled defenseman like Ward?

Oh, and offense from defensemen matters too. Have you looked at the defensemen who are playing on our PP this year? We suffer ONE injury on D to Pitkanen and all of the sudden Bryan ****ing Rodney is playing close to the full two minutes of powerplays. Not to mention that Ward pretty much kills the offense at even strength when ever he gets the puck in the offensive zone by holding onto it for three seconds and then flinging a weak wrist shot on net or dumping the puck into the corner.

Fun facts:
- Babchuk has 12 points this season. Aaron Ward has...12 shots on goal.
- Babchuk took 8 minor penalties in 70 games last season. Ward has taken 9 minor penalties in 22 games this sesaon.

Why do people insist on using Babchuk's playoff performance as an excuse for not singing him when we gave $2.9M/yr to Erik Cole? It's funny that a 31-year old forward who has a stunning 0 goals and 5 assists in his last 32 playoff games gets a pass while a 25-year old defenseman in his first playoff appearance gets endlessly trashed? Oh, I forgot, Cole is a "gritty" North American and was a big part of the Cup win, so he gets an eternal pass.

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11-23-2009, 07:27 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by imayagainknowanton View Post
Fun facts:
- Babchuk has 12 points this season. Aaron Ward has...12 shots on goal.
- Babchuk took 8 minor penalties in 70 games last season. Ward has taken 9 minor penalties in 22 games this sesaon.

Why do people insist on using Babchuk's playoff performance as an excuse for not singing him when we gave $2.9M/yr to Erik Cole? It's funny that a 31-year old forward who has a stunning 0 goals and 5 assists in his last 32 playoff games gets a pass while a 25-year old defenseman in his first playoff appearance gets endlessly trashed? Oh, I forgot, Cole is a "gritty" North American and was a big part of the Cup win, so he gets an eternal pass.
A big reason Babchuk had so few minors is that he didn't play with an edge or any physical presence. I suspect Ward has already surpassed Babchuk's hit total from all last year so what purpose does this comparison serve when an aggressive Dman who mixes it up will invariably get more minors?

Babchuk's horrible playoff performance prevented him from getting more of a raise than he was offered. He chose not tosign even though the public statement was that they wanted him to play with Pitkanen in the middle pairing. Cole's horrible playoff performance was a big reason for his $1.1 M salary reduction. If you think he is getting a pass you aren't paying attention.

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11-23-2009, 07:36 PM
  #36
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A big reason Babchuk had so few minors is that he didn't play with an edge or any physical presence. I suspect Ward has already surpassed Babchuk's hit total from all last year so what purpose does this comparison serve when an aggressive Dman who mixes it up will invariably get more minors?
Five of Ward's nine minors this season have been obstruction penalties (hooking/tripping/holding).

What do Ward's hits accomplish? Anything? At least Babchuk actually attempted to play the puck. Ward just chases around forwards in the defensive zone and gives them shots to the back. He routinely takes his both a hand off his stick and his stick off the ice to display his super cool "toughness." He's slower than Babchuk and even bigger liability with the puck.

If you wonder why we have so much trouble scoring goals, look at our D. Every time they get he puck in the offensive zone it's either a dump in the corner or some weak shot that gets blocked. Our D might as well hang out at center ice and let our forwards play 3-on-5 in the offensive zone. People who complained about Babchuk's "innacurate" slapshot (16 goals scored by accident, apparently) must be absolutely thrilled about Aaron Ward's slapshot.

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Babchuk's horrible playoff performance prevented him from getting more of a raise than he was offered. He chose not tosign even though the public statement was that they wanted him to play with Pitkanen in the middle pairing. Cole's horrible playoff performance was a big reason for his $1.1 M salary reduction. If you think he is getting a pass you aren't paying attention.
Cole shouldn't been re-signed, period. $2.9M/yr is massive overpayment for borderline top 6 forward who sucked in Edmonton, had a little hot streak once he was traded here and then went back to sucking in the playoffs.

Babchuk should been offered more than simply his qualifying offer. JR held a grudge and got burnt.

Ward for 2.5, Cole for 2.9, LaRose for 1.7....yet JR couldn't find a few hundred thousand extra to give to a 25-year old defenseman who scored 16 goals.


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11-23-2009, 07:39 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by imayagainknowanton View Post
Fun facts:
- Babchuk has 12 points this season. Aaron Ward has...12 shots on goal.
- Babchuk took 8 minor penalties in 70 games last season. Ward has taken 9 minor penalties in 22 games this sesaon.
Why are you comparing a guy in the NHL on a crappy team and a guy in the KHL, whose team is not sitting at 5-12-5 and has gone through a 14 game losing streak. I can guarantee you that Anton would not be putting up those points here. Ward is NOT the reason why we had a 14 game losing streak and why this team stinks. Having Anton on the team would not have prevented this team from having a 14 game losing streak. You seriously can't sit there with a straight face and say Anton would have survived what this team went through. His confidence would be 20 feet under ground by now.

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11-23-2009, 07:45 PM
  #38
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Why are you comparing a guy in the NHL on a crappy team and a guy in the KHL, whose team is not sitting at 5-12-5 and has gone through a 14 game losing streak. I can guarantee you that Anton would not be putting up those points here. Ward is NOT the reason why we had a 14 game losing streak and why this team stinks. Having Anton on the team would not have prevented this team from having a 14 game losing streak. You seriously can't sit there with a straight face and say Anton would have survived what this team went through. His confidence would be 20 feet under ground by now.
Ward is a big reason why this team had a 14-game losing streak. At no point last season did Babchuk suck anywhere as much as Ward has sucked this season. And yes, he would have prevented a 14-game losing streak. It's not like we lost every game 10-1.

Oh, and the penalty stats I posted were Babchuk's NHL stats...not KHL.

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11-23-2009, 07:52 PM
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^Your right Babchuk is the bomb and if he was here we would be in the running for the President's trophy.

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11-23-2009, 08:04 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by imayagainknowanton View Post
Five of Ward's nine minors this season have been obstruction penalties (hooking/tripping/holding).

What do Ward's hits accomplish? Anything? At least Babchuk actually attempted to play the puck. Ward just chases around forwards in the defensive zone and gives them shots to the back. He routinely takes his both a hand off his stick and his stick off the ice to display his super cool "toughness." He's slower than Babchuk and even bigger liability with the puck.

Cole shouldn't been re-signed, period. $2.9M/yr is massive overpayment for borderline top 6 forward who sucked in Edmonton, had a little hot streak once he was traded here and then went back to sucking in the playoffs.

Babchuk should been offered more than simply his qualifying offer. JR held a grudge and got burnt.
I wasn't at all defending Ward's poor play. The simple point was your comparison of minors between Ward and Babchuk is a non-starter given their styles. Let's not act like Babchuk had so few because he was disciplined, he so few because he refused to mix it up physically.

Whether Cole should have been re-signed or not wasn't your point. You contended Babchuk wasn't brought back because of a poor playoff while Cole was re-signed in spite of a poor playoff. The team wanted both back, but Cole with a salary reduction and Babchuk reportedly with a raise after he rejected the initial qualifying offer.

http://blogs.newsobserver.com/canes/...to-stay-in-khl

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Babchuk has signed a one-year contract for $1.5 million with Avangard Omsk of the KHL according to a media report out of Russia. Word has it Babchuk, a restricted free agent with no arbitration rights, was offered the same deal by the Canes after being made an initial qualifying offer of one year at $1 million.
Quite the grudge, huh? A uni-dimensional D-man who was so bad in the playoffs that he became a healthy scratch still was offered a 50% increase. Yeah, poor guy.


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11-23-2009, 08:19 PM
  #41
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Since when has "Word has it" been good news writing? Word from who? JR? Eklund? Homeless man on the corner?

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11-23-2009, 08:23 PM
  #42
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http://blogs.newsobserver.com/canes/...to-stay-in-khl

Quite the grudge, huh? A uni-dimensional D-man who was so bad in the playoffs that he became a healthy scratch still was offered a 50% increase. Yeah, poor guy.
Not exactly the same offer. 13% on income tax he pays in Russia vs. around 50% he would have to pay here makes a little difference.

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11-23-2009, 08:29 PM
  #43
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Not exactly the same offer. 13% on income tax he pays in Russia vs. around 50% he would have to pay here makes a little difference.
Assuming the offer was even made. JR claims throughout the offseason that he's not budging from his initial offer. Then, after Babchuk leaves and signs with somewhere else, a rumor magically spreads that he was made the same offer here.

Sounds like classic damage control.

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11-23-2009, 08:31 PM
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Since when has "Word has it" been good news writing? Word from who? JR? Eklund? Homeless man on the corner?
The guy with a pen and paper who hangs around the Canes locker room every day, that's who. What does it matter...do you doubt it?

Seemed, and still seems, entirely plausible. And even if it wasn't exactly $1.5M, are you really suggesting that it was vastly lower than that? And if so, who are you getting your reliable information from?

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11-23-2009, 08:34 PM
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Not exactly the same offer. 13% on income tax he pays in Russia vs. around 50% he would have to pay here makes a little difference.
Yes, the net income is different but it would fly in the face of him saying he wanted to play in the NHL. The difference is chump change compared to the earnings damage he did by going back a second time. He wanted a multi-year deal and wasn't willing to prove himself over the course of an entire season, even while being penciled in with Pitkanen, so he could potentially cash in once his arbitration rights kicked in.

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11-23-2009, 08:36 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by StormCast View Post
Yes, the net income is different but it would fly in the face of him saying he wanted to play in the NHL. The difference is chump change compared to the earnings damage he did by going back a second time. He wanted a multi-year deal and wasn't willing to prove himself over the course of an entire season, even while being penciled in with Pitkanen, so he could potentially cash in once his arbitration rights kicked in.
Yep, that was always and still is my point. Babchuk himself, or under the influence of his agent, made a really stupid choice and he will continue to pay for it, hopefully not with his entire career.

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11-23-2009, 08:41 PM
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The guy with a pen and paper who hangs around the Canes locker room every day, that's who. What does it matter...do you doubt it?

Seemed, and still seems, entirely plausible. And even if it wasn't exactly $1.5M, are you really suggesting that it was vastly lower than that? And if so, who are you getting your reliable information from?
No, "Word has it" is just a nice way to say a rumor. And rumors are rumors, no matter which way you paint it. If Eklund reported that, would you treat it the same?

As for what I'm suggesting, see above. Either JR never actually budged from his initial offer, or he did far too late in the negotiation process in an attempt to save face.

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11-23-2009, 08:56 PM
  #48
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Yes, the net income is different but it would fly in the face of him saying he wanted to play in the NHL. The difference is chump change compared to the earnings damage he did by going back a second time. He wanted a multi-year deal and wasn't willing to prove himself over the course of an entire season, even while being penciled in with Pitkanen, so he could potentially cash in once his arbitration rights kicked in.

Agreed.

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11-23-2009, 09:03 PM
  #49
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No, "Word has it" is just a nice way to say a rumor. And rumors are rumors, no matter which way you paint it. If Eklund reported that, would you treat it the same?

As for what I'm suggesting, see above. Either JR never actually budged from his initial offer, or he did far too late in the negotiation process in an attempt to save face.
Nope. The difference is accountability. Eklund has none. Chip has JR. No comparison.

So his initial offer was 10% more than his previous salary of $1M, so $1.1M. He walked over $400K. This is assuming that your rumor is more correct than Chip's rumor. Big deal...still an idiotic choice.

Don't need more dumb hockey players on this team. lol

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11-23-2009, 09:14 PM
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Nope. The difference is accountability. Eklund has none. Chip has JR. No comparison.

So his initial offer was 10% more than his previous salary of $1M, so $1.1M. He walked over $400K. This is assuming that your rumor is more correct than Chip's rumor. Big deal...still an idiotic choice.

Don't need more dumb hockey players on this team. lol
There's more to it than money. If a guy basically throws you into the fire the entire offseason, why would you want to play there? It's not the first time a player's disagreed with a GM, nor is it the first time JR's been involved in this kind of situation.

The difference is, normal GMs trade away the disgruntled player to assets that could be of use to them. JR handled it like he always has: Ice the player until he leaves the league.

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