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HOH Top 70 Players of All Time (2009)

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Old
10-21-2009, 03:32 AM
  #76
VMBM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Outside99 View Post
Kharlamov at #35 shows that the system to generate the top 100 has issues with respect to assigning rank to foreign players. Isn't he considered the best Russian hockey player of all time?

He certainly was the best player on the ice from both teams in the '72 Super Series.
In the end, the best USSR player in the series was actually Alexander Yakushev. Of course, Bobby Clarke made sure that Kharlamov didn't even get a chance (but it's hard for me to think Kharlamov could have played better or even as well as Yakushev did in the last 2 games).

And was Kharlamov better than Phil Esposito in '72? Surely more fun to watch, but better? Hmmm...

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Old
11-01-2009, 04:09 PM
  #77
Dennis Bonvie
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Just wondering, are we officially dead in the water with the new top 100?

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Old
11-01-2009, 04:20 PM
  #78
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I think Top 70 is good until FF has the time, lol.

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Old
11-05-2009, 04:26 PM
  #79
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I guess this is done..

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Originally Posted by FissionFire View Post
Eh, I pretty much retired from posting here before the season started. I've given up on RWC and LGW is just a non-starter. We'll see if I return to any of them, but it seems unlikely. I've found new interests to occupy my time.

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Old
11-05-2009, 10:58 PM
  #80
Kyle McMahon
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It would be a shame to end things at this point. A lot of time and effort has already been invested. I'm sure we could continue through until the end if people are still interested.

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Old
11-06-2009, 07:12 AM
  #81
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I'm still interested. I wouldn't mind taking over some of FF's responsibilities if it helps get this thing going again. Of course, we'd need the aggregate lists to do anything.

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Old
11-06-2009, 07:35 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I'm still interested. I wouldn't mind taking over some of FF's responsibilities if it helps get this thing going again. Of course, we'd need the aggregate lists to do anything.
I am still willing to participate and am willing to help out whomever takes over. I would be concerned that most voters will have dropped out though meaning a lesser cross section of voters. We would have to get all the lists & voting records from FF. Seems like a tough task to get this going at this stage. maybe we leave this one at top 70 and wait for some kind soul in the future that is willing to in the effort to do another revision.

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Old
11-06-2009, 08:13 AM
  #83
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This semester is kicking me in the butt so I haven't had any time at all to even watch a hockey game. My plan is to knock out the last chunk of the list in December between semesters. Sorry about the delay everyone.

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Old
11-06-2009, 08:43 AM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VMBM View Post
In the end, the best USSR player in the series was actually Alexander Yakushev. Of course, Bobby Clarke made sure that Kharlamov didn't even get a chance (but it's hard for me to think Kharlamov could have played better or even as well as Yakushev did in the last 2 games).

And was Kharlamov better than Phil Esposito in '72? Surely more fun to watch, but better? Hmmm...
Espo was the best, clearly.

I agree Yakushev was #1 on the Soviet team.
Kharmalov may have been close if not injured, but I think the overall next best to Espo was probably Henderson, who was one of only a handful of Canadian players that started the series in half decent condition, and heroics aside, played well the whole series.

Esposito himself was obviously not in great shape at the start of the series, but managed to compete and overcome it.

Given that, as nice as Kharmalov was "fun" to watch, 35th is rather generous. Henderson is not on the top 100 list, nor should he be.

I wonder how the Russians would look upon Kharmalov, taking away this one series (and possibly the 74 series where his scoring was matched by 95 year old Gordie Howe )

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Old
11-09-2009, 11:16 AM
  #85
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Lemieux needs to be ahead of Howe. Put these two guys on the ice at the same time in their primes and noone even notices Howe.

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Old
11-09-2009, 12:21 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Egostick View Post
Lemieux needs to be ahead of Howe. Put these two guys on the ice at the same time in their primes and noone even notices Howe.
Howe wasn't as "noticeable" as Lemieux but he was better. In terms of dominance over contemporaries, Howe's offensive peak was almost just as good as Lemieux's.

FWIW, Lemieux also needed the PP to rack up the points that he did. Yes, he was also an excellent even strength scorer but he did get a higer percentage of his points on the PP than most superstars.

There really is no good reason to put Lemieux ahead... sorry.


By the way, FF, I will help out any way I can. I am committed to getting this done.

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Old
11-24-2009, 09:41 AM
  #87
Dennis Bonvie
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Multiple Hart Trophy winners and where they stand in the top 100 (70):

Gretzky 9 (1)
Howe 6 (3)
Shore 4 (8)
Orr 3 (2)
Mario 3 (4)
Morenz 3 (11)
Clarke 3 (21)
Hull 2 (5)
Beliveau 2 (7)
Hasek 2 (12)
Mikita 2 (14)
Lafluer 2 (19)
Espo 2 (20)
Messier 2 (22)
Stewart 2 ( )
Cowley 2 ( )
Ovechkin 2 ( )

Looks like a pretty good indicator.

Has Bobby Clarke been a little short changed, considering where the 6 other 3+ winners are ranked?

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Old
11-24-2009, 09:50 AM
  #88
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I've always had Clarke in the top 20. I think he was a bit short changed.

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Old
11-24-2009, 11:16 AM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
Multiple Hart Trophy winners and where they stand in the top 100 (70):

Gretzky 9 (1)
Howe 6 (3)
Shore 4 (8)
Orr 3 (2)
Mario 3 (4)
Morenz 3 (11)
Clarke 3 (21)
Hull 2 (5)
Beliveau 2 (7)
Hasek 2 (12)
Mikita 2 (14)
Lafluer 2 (19)
Espo 2 (20)
Messier 2 (22)
Stewart 2 ( )
Cowley 2 ( )
Ovechkin 2 ( )

Looks like a pretty good indicator.

Has Bobby Clarke been a little short changed, considering where the 6 other 3+ winners are ranked?
I don't know about that. He had a relatively short peak for his era, and the list takes into account career accomplishments.

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Old
12-02-2009, 02:24 PM
  #90
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Let's try to get this done while it is still 2009.

FF, if you can't do this, send me the votes and I will tally them up and take over.

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Old
12-06-2009, 07:58 PM
  #91
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I would like to get back to this thing soon, too.

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Old
12-06-2009, 08:12 PM
  #92
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Guess I'll jump in on the project this time, since I may have a lot of time on my hands until this coming April.

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Old
12-08-2009, 11:00 AM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon View Post
From all I can gather, Kharlamov is considered the greatest Soviet hockey player by the Russians themselves. They should know a lot better than myself, so I'll take their word for it until I see a really convincing case for someone else. The fact that Tretiak's MVP voting record is so much better has made me think about moving him ahead, but as it stands I still have Kharlamov first.
If you go to Quebec, I'd sure you'd find Maurice Richard much higher than he belongs too.

Kharlamov has that "folk hero" type of hype, and that's why he's usually so over-rated. While he may be the best Russian forward, it's not clear-cut. Anatoly Firsov,
Boris Mikhailov, or Sergey Makarov could all make a reasonable claim to that title.

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Old
12-13-2009, 05:20 PM
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
If you go to Quebec, I'd sure you'd find Maurice Richard much higher than he belongs too.

Kharlamov has that "folk hero" type of hype, and that's why he's usually so over-rated. While he may be the best Russian forward, it's not clear-cut. Anatoly Firsov,
Boris Mikhailov, or Sergey Makarov could all make a reasonable claim to that title.
Disagree on Mikhailov. I think that Kharlamov was pretty clearly the best forward of his era, which would put him over Mikhailov.

Kharlamov, Firsov, and Makarov are the only forwards to have a case as the top Soviet forward. But everyone who watched them play extensively seems to agree that Kharlamov was #1, so I have to go with that.

And do all Canadiens fans like Maurice Richard as the best Canadien? I definitely think that some like Beliveau or Harvey, no? I mean, the young ones would pick Richard, but what of those who watched all 3?

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Old
12-13-2009, 06:26 PM
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Disagree on Mikhailov. I think that Kharlamov was pretty clearly the best forward of his era, which would put him over Mikhailov.

Kharlamov, Firsov, and Makarov are the only forwards to have a case as the top Soviet forward. But everyone who watched them play extensively seems to agree that Kharlamov was #1, so I have to go with that.

And do all Canadiens fans like Maurice Richard as the best Canadien? I definitely think that some like Beliveau or Harvey, no? I mean, the young ones would pick Richard, but what of those who watched all 3?
I think Habs fans are split between Beliveau, Richard & Harvey which helps Bobby Hull to slip into 5th place where he rightfully belongs.

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Old
12-13-2009, 07:13 PM
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Disagree on Mikhailov. I think that Kharlamov was pretty clearly the best forward of his era, which would put him over Mikhailov.

Kharlamov, Firsov, and Makarov are the only forwards to have a case as the top Soviet forward. But everyone who watched them play extensively seems to agree that Kharlamov was #1, so I have to go with that.

And do all Canadiens fans like Maurice Richard as the best Canadien? I definitely think that some like Beliveau or Harvey, no? I mean, the young ones would pick Richard, but what of those who watched all 3?
I think the better question to ask that focuses in mopre on Dreak's point is "Do all Habs fans in Quebec like Maurice Richard as the best Canadien?"

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Old
12-13-2009, 07:51 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Leafs Forever View Post
I think the better question to ask that focuses in mopre on Dreak's point is "Do all Habs fans in Quebec like Maurice Richard as the best Canadien?"
He is the best Hab.
And the answer to that question is : not EVERYBODY.

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Old
12-13-2009, 07:54 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
He is the best Hab.
And the answer to that question is : not EVERYBODY.
Or perhaps an even better question: "Do a rather high number/percentages of Habs fans in Quebec think Maurice Richard is/ranks better than he actually was/does?

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Old
12-13-2009, 07:58 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by pappyline View Post
I think Habs fans are split between Beliveau, Richard & Harvey which helps Bobby Hull to slip into 5th place where he rightfully belongs.
From 1963-1970, Bobby Hull was usually getting outpointed by his own teammate stan mikita. Maybe i'm not seeing what other people see, but i'm not sure what makes Hull 10 spots better than Mikita?

I personally have Ray Bourque at #5.

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Old
12-13-2009, 08:21 PM
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
From 1963-1970, Bobby Hull was usually getting outpointed by his own teammate stan mikita. Maybe i'm not seeing what other people see, but i'm not sure what makes Hull 10 spots better than Mikita?

I personally have Ray Bourque at #5.
Maybe you should consider that the differences in skill are minuscule within a certain range of players, but they have to be ranked.

10 spots in that company is a hair in reality.

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