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Babchuk dominating the KHL

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Old
11-23-2009, 09:22 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Blueline Bomber View Post
There's more to it than money. If a guy basically throws you into the fire the entire offseason, why would you want to play there? It's not the first time a player's disagreed with a GM, nor is it the first time JR's been involved in this kind of situation.
Nope, not even the first time JR has been in this kind of situation with this exact same player. Was there another?

If I'm not mistaken, I don't believe we heard much that one could construe as positive or negative at the beginning of the off-season. It was toward the end of the off-season that you began to hear more judgmental kinds of comments.

I wonder why Babchuk fired his agent...that was always something you could view as going two different ways. Either he was mad because the agent bungled negotiations early on, or got tired of hearing the agent telling him that he was making a mistake for being willing to go the KHL route. Or some other explanation. Anyway, always wondered about that.

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11-23-2009, 09:40 PM
  #52
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Nope, not even the first time JR has been in this kind of situation with this exact same player. Was there another?
Arturs Irbe. Irbe wouldn't take a pay cut, so JR tried everything he could to bully Irbe into doing so. He didn't allow Irbe to attend training camp, he sent him down to the ECHL, and nothing worked. JR was paying him 5 million to play in the ECHL. And JR made the same claims at the time, waiting for "a trade to work out".

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11-24-2009, 08:54 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Blueline Bomber View Post
Arturs Irbe. Irbe wouldn't take a pay cut, so JR tried everything he could to bully Irbe into doing so. He didn't allow Irbe to attend training camp, he sent him down to the ECHL, and nothing worked. JR was paying him 5 million to play in the ECHL. And JR made the same claims at the time, waiting for "a trade to work out".
Remove a fan favorite from the equation, add more context and you have this.

A high-paid goalie absolutely is terrible, as in near the worst in the league, to start the year and he loses his job. Goalie publicly complains and asks to be moved if he isn't going to play, citing how tough it is on him and failing to acknowledge his awful play. Goalie is waived but there are no takers. Goalie is offered a buyout but he refuses so he can receive his full contract. Goalie is eventually exiled to the ECHL when their is no room for him on the AHL roster. Goalie's fans wonder how such a cuddly little guy could be so mistreated.

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11-24-2009, 11:18 AM
  #54
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let's not bring facts into this

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11-24-2009, 11:36 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Blueline Bomber View Post
There's more to it than money. If a guy basically throws you into the fire the entire offseason, why would you want to play there? It's not the first time a player's disagreed with a GM, nor is it the first time JR's been involved in this kind of situation.

The difference is, normal GMs trade away the disgruntled player to assets that could be of use to them. JR handled it like he always has: Ice the player until he leaves the league.
Babchuk stated he wanted to play in the NHL. If he really wants to play here, in the NHL, because its the best league, according to him, then you suck it up. You take the offer given, prove your worth, then July 1, 2010, you tell JR to shove it up his butt and sign with another team. That's all he had to do.

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11-24-2009, 12:06 PM
  #56
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let's not bring facts into this
Yeah, I don't know what I was thinking.

Maybe later we can look forward to another poster's re-installment of Rutherford hate Russians using these two non-Russians as examples and omitting the Samsonov reclamation. One of the more entertaining posts, I've ever read here.

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11-24-2009, 12:52 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by caniac247 View Post
Babchuk stated he wanted to play in the NHL. If he really wants to play here, in the NHL, because its the best league, according to him, then you suck it up. You take the offer given, prove your worth, then July 1, 2010, you tell JR to shove it up his butt and sign with another team. That's all he had to do.
Again (and this is really starting to get old), normal GMs are able to trade their disgruntled players, especially when the contract negotiations are at a stand still and the players has asked to be traded. Normal GMs can get something for the player, even if it's a slightly lower value than what the player's actually worth (Heatley being the most recent example).

JR, instead, decided to repeat history and follow exactly what Nashville did to Radulov. There's absolutely no reason JR should be left with nothing, especially when there was a perfect example of what happens if you wait too long no more than a couple years beforehand.

When it was obvious that a trade wasn't going to get done (for whatever reason you choose to believe), Babchuk instead went to the KHL to actually play hockey. He's a hockey player without a team that went and found a team. No harm in that.

And don't give me that "prove your worth" crap. If having a season like Babchuk did last year isn't enough to prove his worth, then there's nothing that he could have done to do so. He started the season expecting to play as a 6th-7th defensemen. Melichar was given a starting job before he was. To end the season tied for 4th in defensive goalscoring, it was well past what anyone expected.

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11-24-2009, 01:01 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Blueline Bomber View Post
there was a perfect example of what happens if you wait too long no more than a couple years beforehand.
Wait...what example are you talking about this time?

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11-24-2009, 01:34 PM
  #59
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Wait...what example are you talking about this time?
Alexander Radulov. He even said as much in the same paragraph you took that quote from.

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11-24-2009, 01:42 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by inSTAALed View Post
Alexander Radulov. He even said as much in the same paragraph you took that quote from.
Really BB...is this what you're talking about?

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11-24-2009, 03:26 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Blueline Bomber View Post
Again (and this is really starting to get old), normal GMs are able to trade their disgruntled players, especially when the contract negotiations are at a stand still and the players has asked to be traded. Normal GMs can get something for the player, even if it's a slightly lower value than what the player's actually worth (Heatley being the most recent example)


JR, instead, decided to repeat history and follow exactly what Nashville did to Radulov. There's absolutely no reason JR should be left with nothing, especially when there was a perfect example of what happens if you wait too long no more than a couple years beforehand.
No one knows whether a team was interested in Babchuk or not. Sure there were rumors that Vancouver and Rangers were, but what were they offering? A 3rd round pick, a bag of pucks. No one knows. Maybe those teams wanted Babchuk plus a prospect or a pick. You can say JR wanted too much for him, I can say nobody wanted to give a 4th round pick for him. No one knows, so its pointless.

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Originally Posted by Blueline Bomber View Post
When it was obvious that a trade wasn't going to get done (for whatever reason you choose to believe), Babchuk instead went to the KHL to actually play hockey. He's a hockey player without a team that went and found a team. No harm in that.

And don't give me that "prove your worth" crap. If having a season like Babchuk did last year isn't enough to prove his worth, then there's nothing that he could have done to do so. He started the season expecting to play as a 6th-7th defensemen. Melichar was given a starting job before he was. To end the season tied for 4th in defensive goalscoring, it was well past what anyone expected.
Did you forget that the Canes offered him a contract. He had a team to play for, he chose not to play for that team.

And him taking Josef Melicrap's spot means nothing to me in that he proved his worth. Turnoverdovsky could have taken Melicrap's spot. Him scoring 16 goals once, doesn't prove his worth to me. And for the record, I wasn't happy with LaRose's contract for his 1 good year (20 goals). Show me that you can actually play the position of defense. Show me that you don't need Rowe holding your hand and have to build up your confidence when times are rough. Show me that you can hold your spot in the postseason and not need to be replaced by press box holder Frank Kaberle. He needs to show a bit more than 16 goals for that big raise. Let's get that big shot a bit more accurate. He has alot to work on IMHO. Can he be a good defensemen, damn straight he can, but he needs to work on it, here at the NHL level and stop defecting to Russia when things don't go his way.

I'll say it again, you suck it up, play for a year, tell the GM who you hate to shove it. That right there should be motivation enough to take the contract offered, show JR he is an idiot and get that big contract with another team.

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11-24-2009, 04:06 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by bleedgreen View Post
defensively, babs was amongst the worst we've ever had. i would take malik over babs in his own end. he has no leg strength, was frequently knocked off the puck by far smaller and lighter players, couldnt catch up to plays out of the corner, and had no physical edge to him in the corners or in front of the net. he could easily be beaten wide.

even as an offensive guy he wasnt fast, he had limited mobility when holding the puck at the point, and it took him years to find the net - but i will give the point he has learned to find that. he was embarrassingly exposed in the playoffs is a weak point in the pp - his only plus going in.

to me he doesnt even qualify as an offensive d-man, since to me that job requires skating.

all he has is a bomb of a shot. if you think that is enough in this league im glad youre not gm of this team. i only wish he was here because i think he would help maintain the slide and help jr not think this is a legit playoff team. babs "dominating" (based off stats? they arent THAT good, have you seen him play?) the khl, especially in the plus/minus category to me says volumes about the quality of the khl and not the quality of babs since his weakness is defensive play.
Please.......don't anybody ever say they would take Malik over anybody this team has ever had. Malik was single handedly responsible for the permanent bruise I have on my forehead that came from smacking myself every time he made a bone-headed play.

I'll take either young and one-dimensional or old and slow over slow and dumb any day.

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11-24-2009, 04:32 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by caniac247 View Post
No one knows whether a team was interested in Babchuk or not. Sure there were rumors that Vancouver and Rangers were, but what were they offering? A 3rd round pick, a bag of pucks. No one knows. Maybe those teams wanted Babchuk plus a prospect or a pick. You can say JR wanted too much for him, I can say nobody wanted to give a 4th round pick for him. No one knows, so its pointless.
Do you honestly believe that no team was interested in him? Of the 29 other teams, JR didn't get any offers? Even that's not true, since JR stated he had at least one offer and a couple other teams that showed interest. But he wasn't "comfortable" with the offer and decided to see what else was available.

Something is always better than nothing. When other GMs know you're desperate to get rid of a player, they're not going to offer you a fair value for him. I'd be willing to bet JR's done something similar in his career. He should know how it works. Take what you can get, or you'll be left holding the check.


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Did you forget that the Canes offered him a contract. He had a team to play for, he chose not to play for that team.
By the time it was obvious JR wasn't going to get a trade done, there was no room for Babs on the team. Instead, we just had to have Alberts and Ward. Because they're physical and that's what got us to the ECF last year...

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And him taking Josef Melicrap's spot means nothing to me in that he proved his worth. Turnoverdovsky could have taken Melicrap's spot. Him scoring 16 goals once, doesn't prove his worth to me. And for the record, I wasn't happy with LaRose's contract for his 1 good year (20 goals). Show me that you can actually play the position of defense. Show me that you don't need Rowe holding your hand and have to build up your confidence when times are rough. Show me that you can hold your spot in the postseason and not need to be replaced by press box holder Frank Kaberle. He needs to show a bit more than 16 goals for that big raise. Let's get that big shot a bit more accurate. He has alot to work on IMHO. Can he be a good defensemen, damn straight he can, but he needs to work on it, here at the NHL level and stop defecting to Russia when things don't go his way.
Again, you highly underrate his defensive play. He was never as bad as some of the defensive stalwarts we've got playing now. His postseason was rough, but frankly, I stand by my reasoning for his poor play. It's not the first time a player's had a rough go in his first postseason action and it won't be the last. And it's not like our defense on the whole was some great shutdown force in the first place.

They were, for the most part, manhandled in each series. Our slower defensemen couldn't handle the pressure from the speedy forwards of New Jersey, while the others were beaten to a pulp against the physical forecheck of Boston. Then Malkin happened.

And work on his accuracy? Really? But you're fully OK with Corvo playing here, right? Somehow, I don't think you understand how rare it is to have a shot like that in a player so young.

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I'll say it again, you suck it up, play for a year, tell the GM who you hate to shove it. That right there should be motivation enough to take the contract offered, show JR he is an idiot and get that big contract with another team.
But there's no need to play for Carolina to do that. If he continues his pace in the KHL right now, and makes the announcement that he's interested in returning to the NHL this offseason, I guarantee there will be offers here. They'll look at his past 3 seasons (KHL and NHL) and realize the rewards outweigh the risks.

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11-24-2009, 06:05 PM
  #64
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Well even if they did make an offer they still would have to give up compensation to Carolina. We retain his rights until he hits UFA age, at which point he'll likely have a big enough contract in the KHL to justify staying there.

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11-24-2009, 07:24 PM
  #65
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Can you guys give me a brief synopsis of what happened with Babchuk?

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11-24-2009, 07:43 PM
  #66
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Can you guys give me a brief synopsis of what happened with Babchuk?
Babchuk played 52 games with the Hurricanes in 06-07 (averaging 17:26 TOI/game), but Rutherford needed a roster spot with Kaberle coming off I.R and elects to send Babchuk to Albany after he had been on the NHL roster the entire season. Babchuk initially refused, but reported after a week or so. He was called up at the end of the season and played 3:38 in one game before being healthy scratched for the final two games of the season.

Babchuk wanted a one-way deal that offseason, but Rutherford only offered a two-way deal so Babchuk signed with Avangard Omsk, where he scores 9 goals, 24 points and registered a +18 rating in 57 games.

So we then sign him to a one-year, one-way deal for $1M. Babchuk scores 16 goals (tied for 5th among NHL defensemen), 35 points and goes +13. He struggles in the playoffs and ends up being healthy scratched for five games in favor of Kaberle.

Rutherford recognized that Babchuk had no arbitration rights and thus attempted to lowball him with his $1M qualifying offer. This was a year after giving Patrick frickin' Eaves (who also had no arbitration rights) $1.4M/yr for three years. Rutherford tried to save every penny on Babchuk while at the same time giving massive overpayments to Cole ($2.9M), LaRose ($1.7M), and acquiring A.Ward ($2.5M).

Frustrated with both being lowballed and not being traded, Babchuk signs with Avangard Omsk on September 20th. Rutherford had close to three full months from the start of free agency to either get Babchuk signed or trade him and did neither. So not only do we not have a talented young defenseman who we could sorely use at this point, we also have nothing to show for him despite JR admitting that he had offers on the table for him.

JR held a grudge and got burnt. Apparently he thought he was "improving" the defense by swapping out Seidenberg/Babchuk for Ward/Alberts, when in reality all he did was make the team slower and less skilled. But of course, the majority of the fanbase LOVED these moves, because Babchuk is nothing but a Russian primadonna locker room cancer while Ward is a gritty veteran leader and won the Cup with us.


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11-24-2009, 08:14 PM
  #67
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Except for Babchuk though; he used the Russian Mafia to strong arm the official scorers from giving him a minus whenever he was on the ice for a goal against.
The fiend! I'd be willing to bet he had something to do with Eaves's missing shoe collection as well. He went all Snidely Whiplash on the team.

Now I see the light.

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11-24-2009, 08:14 PM
  #68
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Let's be honest here... for Babchuk's own safety he is at the right place and right time right now.

We'd still be at the bottom of the league and this is what he'd see outside of his apartment building. Naturally, it'd be all his and only his fault.


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11-24-2009, 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted by imayagainknowanton View Post
Babchuk played 52 games with the Hurricanes in 06-07 (averaging 17:26 TOI/game), but Rutherford needed a roster spot with Kaberle coming off I.R and elects to send Babchuk to Albany after he had been on the NHL roster the entire season. Babchuk initially refused, but reported after a week or so. He was called up at the end of the season and played 3:38 in one game before being healthy scratched for the final two games of the season.

Babchuk wanted a one-way deal that offseason, but Rutherford only offered a two-way deal so Babchuk signed with Avangard Omsk, where he scores 9 goals, 24 points and registered a +18 rating in 57 games.

So we then sign him to a one-year, one-way deal for $1M. Babchuk scores 16 goals (tied for 5th among NHL defensemen), 35 points and goes +13. He struggles in the playoffs and ends up being healthy scratched for five games in favor of Kaberle.

Rutherford recognized that Babchuk had no arbitration rights and thus attempted to lowball him with his $1M qualifying offer. This was a year after giving Patrick frickin' Eaves (who also had no arbitration rights) $1.4M/yr for three years. Rutherford tried to save every penny on Babchuk while at the same time giving massive overpayments to Cole ($2.9M), LaRose ($1.7M), and acquiring A.Ward ($2.5M).

Frustrated with both being lowballed and not being traded, Babchuk signs with Avangard Omsk on September 20th. Rutherford had close to three full months from the start of free agency to either get Babchuk signed or trade him and did neither. So not only do we not have a talented young defenseman who we could sorely use at this point, we also have nothing to show for him despite JR admitting that he had offers on the table for him.

JR held a grudge and got burnt. Apparently he thought he was "improving" the defense by swapping out Seidenberg/Babchuk for Ward/Alberts, when in reality all he did was make the team slower and less skilled. But of course, the majority of the fanbase LOVED these moves, because Babchuk is nothing but a Russian primadonna locker room cancer while Ward is a gritty veteran leader and won the Cup with us.
Ouch! Thanks for the write up. Much appreciated.

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11-25-2009, 07:57 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by imayagainknowanton View Post
Babchuk played 52 games with the Hurricanes in 06-07 (averaging 17:26 TOI/game), but Rutherford needed a roster spot with Kaberle coming off I.R and elects to send Babchuk to Albany after he had been on the NHL roster the entire season. Babchuk initially refused, but reported after a week or so. He was called up at the end of the season and played 3:38 in one game before being healthy scratched for the final two games of the season.
The reality was that Babchuk had already started to become a healthy scratch prior to his demotion because of a horrible stretch of play. His play forced his demotion it wasn't a matter of simply electing to send him down. Let's not forget he went AWOL during a playoff run too.

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So we then sign him to a one-year, one-way deal for $1M. Babchuk scores 16 goals (tied for 5th among NHL defensemen), 35 points and goes +13. He struggles in the playoffs and ends up being healthy scratched for five games in favor of Kaberle.

Rutherford recognized that Babchuk had no arbitration rights and thus attempted to lowball him with his $1M qualifying offer. This was a year after giving Patrick frickin' Eaves (who also had no arbitration rights) $1.4M/yr for three years. Rutherford tried to save every penny on Babchuk while at the same time giving massive overpayments to Cole ($2.9M), LaRose ($1.7M), and acquiring A.Ward ($2.5M).

Frustrated with both being lowballed and not being traded, Babchuk signs with Avangard Omsk on September 20th. Rutherford had close to three full months from the start of free agency to either get Babchuk signed or trade him and did neither. So not only do we not have a talented young defenseman who we could sorely use at this point, we also have nothing to show for him despite JR admitting that he had offers on the table for him.

JR held a grudge and got burnt. Apparently he thought he was "improving" the defense by swapping out Seidenberg/Babchuk for Ward/Alberts, when in reality all he did was make the team slower and less skilled. But of course, the majority of the fanbase LOVED these moves, because Babchuk is nothing but a Russian primadonna locker room cancer while Ward is a gritty veteran leader and won the Cup with us.
Babchuk's stat line from last year was very impressive overall. Not to diminish his outstanding goal scoring stretch over the last 25 games or so, but his season was one of up and down streaks. It proved he can get hot and score from the point but also that he wasn't a proven player in whom you invest a 3-year contract which he was seeking.

There is no doubt Rutherford played hardball since Babchuk had no arbitration rights but he played the same game with Cole earlier in his career too. It hasn't been confirmed by the team, not surprisingly, but a $1.5 M offer was reportedly extended. Now, if you want to establish baseline value for a guy coming off a similar year, look at M-A Bergeron, another single-dimension offensive player who is weak on D, who signed right at the beginning of the season for $750k and one-year. Granted, Babchuk is younger and can improve but he also has a couple of strikes off-the-ice working against him.

I agree that many fans see him as a prima donna but I think him being Russian isn't the factor you think. Samsonov has been embraced and Markov, during his short stay, quickly became a favorite. When Belanger showed his selfish side he became a fan target of criticism but was it because he was French-Canadian? No, the common thread was the me-first attitude shown. A big reason Primeau became persona non-grata with the fanbase too.

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11-25-2009, 03:27 PM
  #71
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Remove a fan favorite from the equation, add more context and you have this.

A high-paid goalie absolutely is terrible, as in near the worst in the league, to start the year and he loses his job. Goalie publicly complains and asks to be moved if he isn't going to play, citing how tough it is on him and failing to acknowledge his awful play. Goalie is waived but there are no takers. Goalie is offered a buyout but he refuses so he can receive his full contract. Goalie is eventually exiled to the ECHL when their is no room for him on the AHL roster. Goalie's fans wonder how such a cuddly little guy could be so mistreated.
Thats some one-sided context. I'm not defending him, but i don't recall it being quite that simple. Irbe made the one cardinal sin, said the five words you shouldn't, but another instance of management not being completely responsible for the problem, but not handling things well either IMO.

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11-25-2009, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by imayagainknowanton View Post
Babchuk played 52 games with the Hurricanes in 06-07 (averaging 17:26 TOI/game), but Rutherford needed a roster spot with Kaberle coming off I.R and elects to send Babchuk to Albany after he had been on the NHL roster the entire season. .
I still contend that the true story was a language translation problem. When JR told him he was sending him to Albany, Anton thought he said Albania, and freaked out. From that point on, conversation was impossible.

(Apologies to any Albanians present, it just fits liguistically. I'm sure it is a lovely country).

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11-25-2009, 03:52 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Citizen Cane View Post
Thats some one-sided context. I'm not defending him, but i don't recall it being quite that simple. Irbe made the one cardinal sin, said the five words you shouldn't, but another instance of management not being completely responsible for the problem, but not handling things well either IMO.
No it wasn't that simple and the post was intended to have a sarcastic slant. The main point being that if the story was about a non-fan favorite it would be told more factually than the way the Irbe as victim saga usually is told.

I don't give the Canes high marks for how they handled it but when you look at it objectively, Irbe was really wanting to collect his entire contract (vs. the buyout he rejected) than actually wanting to go somewhere else in the NHL for less money. So yes he was exiled but it was self-inflicted to a fairly large extent.

I think the money grab angle is true of Babchuk too. He didn't want just a raise, he wanted a 3-year, guaranteed deal after basically having an outstanding 25-game span of play.

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11-26-2009, 12:44 AM
  #74
seekritdude
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*peeks in*

Maybe not super pointful and from someone baised but, if you look at it from a bigger perspective can you really say irbe was overpaid when he played with the canes or in the NHL period? Hell that first year he was making what 500,000 thousand a year, and up to the last month of the season when the whole canes team got cold, i think you could pretty easily say irbe was one of if not the best goalie in the league that year. Yea he had a bad season that last year, but so did the whole team. And for what irbe made when he played for the canes id say the canes got a deal. Theres been other goalies who have been paied quite a bit more then irbe, when those teams didnt rely on their goalie as much as the canes did theres.


Again I guess im just thinking of it from the bigger picture but yea for what irbe was making all together in the long run the canes actually got a deal so.... And no one was that great for the canes that year that I remember.

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11-26-2009, 02:49 AM
  #75
Dfence033
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I think Babchuk gets a bad wrap because the perception that JR painted for the fans is that Babs somehow spited the Hurricanes organization by rejecting an offer that was clearly an attempt to low-ball him. It's pretty amazing to me how quickly things unfolded. Babchuk wants a longer term deal than playing year-by-year, and after watching him play, I'd say he earned it. JR wanted to keep him on the cheap, so gave him a 1-year deal very similar to the one Babchuk had last season. To put this 1-year, $1 million deal in perspective, the Rangers are paying Matt Gilroy a $1.75 million/year 2-year deal, without ever playing an NHL game prior to this contract. Babchuk puts up 16 goals as a D, and JR tries to give him a 1-year, $1 million deal? Than later says it was $1.5 million? Consider this:

Player A: 72 games, 16 goals, 19 assists, 35 points, 9 PPG, +13, 18:04 TOI/G, 12.6% shooting

Player B: 69 games, 15 goals, 24 assists, 39 points, 8 PPG, -1, 23:08 TOI/G, 9.8% shooting

Player A and Player B have exceptionally similar stats and even play in the same division, yet Player A looks for a contract, gets offered a 1-year, $1 million deal, while Player B has a contract of 3-years, $5.75 million/year.

Can you honestly say that Babchuk is in the wrong for looking for a 3-year deal of $1.5 million/year? Am I one of only a few that thinks this is insane? Just a neutral observer chiming in on what was one of the more exciting young defenseman to watch in the NHL last year. And yes, the Rangers were seriously interested in acquiring the rights to Babchuk, right around the time they were shopping the rights to Zherdev, according to several reports. Face it, JR dropped the ball on Babchuk...


Last edited by Dfence033: 11-26-2009 at 02:50 AM. Reason: Spelling.
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