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11-26-2009, 02:59 AM
  #76
Dfence033
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I see a lot of mentions of Aaron Ward ($2.5 million/year + Eaves + 4th round pick) and Andrew Alberts (just over $1 million), if you guys seriously think that either of them are adequate replacements for Babchuk... Well...

The Hurricanes are paying Wallin $1.725 million and Gleason $2.75 million, how is Babchuck not worth even $2 million for 3 years? Babchuk may not have prevented the bad season that the Hurricanes are having, but I think you'd be fairly crazy to say that he wouldn't have had an impact on at least 3 of the games... He could have been one of the pieces to build around, now he is a piece in the KHL.

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11-26-2009, 03:27 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Dfence033 View Post
I think Babchuk gets a bad wrap because the perception that JR painted for the fans is that Babs somehow spited the Hurricanes organization by rejecting an offer that was clearly an attempt to low-ball him. It's pretty amazing to me how quickly things unfolded. Babchuk wants a longer term deal than playing year-by-year, and after watching him play, I'd say he earned it. JR wanted to keep him on the cheap, so gave him a 1-year deal very similar to the one Babchuk had last season. To put this 1-year, $1 million deal in perspective, the Rangers are paying Matt Gilroy a $1.75 million/year 2-year deal, without ever playing an NHL game prior to this contract. Babchuk puts up 16 goals as a D, and JR tries to give him a 1-year, $1 million deal? Than later says it was $1.5 million? Consider this:

Player A: 72 games, 16 goals, 19 assists, 35 points, 9 PPG, +13, 18:04 TOI/G, 12.6% shooting

Player B: 69 games, 15 goals, 24 assists, 39 points, 8 PPG, -1, 23:08 TOI/G, 9.8% shooting

Player A and Player B have exceptionally similar stats and even play in the same division, yet Player A looks for a contract, gets offered a 1-year, $1 million deal, while Player B has a contract of 3-years, $5.75 million/year.

Can you honestly say that Babchuk is in the wrong for looking for a 3-year deal of $1.5 million/year? Am I one of only a few that thinks this is insane? Just a neutral observer chiming in on what was one of the more exciting young defenseman to watch in the NHL last year. And yes, the Rangers were seriously interested in acquiring the rights to Babchuk, right around the time they were shopping the rights to Zherdev, according to several reports. Face it, JR dropped the ball on Babchuk...
The fanbase bought into JR's "Babchuk doesn't have arbitration rights, so he should just accept my absurd lowball qualifying offer" line.

This was while tons of RFAs without arbitration rights were getting well above their QO. Just a year prior Rutherford had given Patrick Eaves (no arbitration rights) $1.4M/yr for three years.

Rutherford does this in any other market and people call for his head. Unfortunately, due to making the Finals twice with a veteran roster comprised of "character" players and marketing the game to families and small children, anybody who doesn't fall under the category of an upstanding, gritty, veteran, character leader gets treated like crap by the media and most of the fanbase.

You have no idea how many people posted comments to the degree of "Good riddance!" on other boards when Babchuk signed in Russia. People were actually ovewhelmingly positive about the fact that we got rid of Babchuk/Seidenberg and replaced them with Alberts/Ward. Who cares if a team lacking skill just got rid of two skilled defensemen? The soft Euro cancer who wanted too much money is gone from the team and that's all that matters. And YAAAAAAAAAAY we brought in two players who THROW HITS!!!!!!!!!1111111111

The series against the Pens convinced JR that we had "too many" puck-moving defensemen. He failed to realize that the puck-moving and offensive ability on D was one of the key strengths of the team and ended up completely destroying that with his offseason moves. He could have just replaced one Seidenberg or Babchuk with a GOOD defensive defenseman and ended up with a balanced D of 3 defensive D/3 puck-movers. Instead he gets rid of BOTH and replaces them with two #5/6 defensemen who are total fail at skating, getting the puck out of the zone, and contributing to the offense. Ward and Alberts will be lucky to combine for 20 points this season. They are absolutely horrific to watch in their own zone and cringe-worthy when ever they mistakenly are passed the puck in the offensive zone.


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11-26-2009, 03:47 AM
  #78
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I'm slightly more familiar with JR's work than that of other GMs, especially now that I'm living in Hurricanes country. He does seem to get a free pass for what most franchises would consider bonehead decisions. I think Hurricanes fail to see the insanity of the decision, but when Rangers fans, who have to routinely put up with Glen Sather (Author of the Chris Drury, Scott Gomez, Michal Rozsival, Wade Redden, and Donald Brashear contracts), comment that this was ridiculous, it might be time to reconsider the JR blinders. It's also weird to see so many people actually believing that no team had any legitimate interest in acquiring the rights to Babchuk. I can think of 3 teams in the Hurricanes own division who would have loved to get their hands on a guy like that. I like the hitting game, but it would have made more sense to grow Babchuk into a more physical defender who has that natural offensive ability and a booming shot.

As a Predators fan and having a man-crush on one, Shea Weber, I can't state enough to any Hurricane fan I meet how invaluable having a shot like that at the points is. Now, I don't think Babchuk would have been Shea Weber, only because I don't think Babchuk's defensive game is as good, but he is certainly a very viable offensive-defenseman. The Predators recognized how useful Shea Weber's shot is and used their first-round pick this year to draft Ryan Ellis, who is built after the same mold, that's how valuable those types of players are. I would even be willing to let JR off the hook ever so slightly if he'd have recognized his mistake and pursued Marc-Andre Bergeron... But as you said, instead he replaced Babchuk and Seidenberg with Aaron Ward/Andrew Alberts...

I might have to disagree on the Ward/Alberts combining for under 20 points this year, though. Alberts hasn't been as "cringe-worthy" lately, and I thought he was a pretty under-rated signing, and if his play continues to improve back to where it was with Philadelphia, he may even approach 20 points by himself. Ward, on the other hand, I can make no excuses for. Why on earth anyone thought it made sense to get rid of Eaves and a 4th to get Ward of all people is just baffling to me. If nothing else, the pick should have gone the other way, but I suppose that's a discussion for another time and place.

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11-26-2009, 06:16 AM
  #79
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I have no problem with Alberts. He's living up to his billing and his paycheck as a #5/6 defenseman that lays into people physically while being decent positionally. Ward has been a total bust of a reacquisition though, no question about that one. I would gladly have rather kept Eaves, let LaRose or Cole walk and brought back either Seidenberg or Babchuk in Ward's place. I'd love to see JR man up and own up to his mistake by bringing Babchuk back this summer, but it won't happen.

I will say I have no clue where people got that there was no interest in Babchuk though. Maybe not to the point of someone firing off an offer sheet, but JR himself stated that there were offers on the table. The problem is that he wasn't sure of the offers value and part of that is his own lowballing and bashing of Babchuk in the media IMO.

Anton's not entirely without issue himself though. He REALLY needs to work on his lower body strength if he wants to stick in the NHL. As bad as Ward is in terms of skating, Babchuk is not much if any better there. I can't remember too many players out there that have stuck in the NHL with just a good shot as a defenseman outside of maybe the 80s, when the league was at its weakest point in depth before the collapse of the Iron Curtain. You either have to be able to skate as well or you need to be stellar positionally.


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11-26-2009, 09:02 AM
  #80
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Babchuk was so awfully bad in the playoffs that he was replaced by Frank Kaberle. Since other people get to repeat 'OMG he had 16 goals!", then I get to repeat that.

There are a few Anton apologists on here that wouldn't have cringed if he was given 3 years/$9 million. And that's funny, because it just shows the blinders they have on.

If he was/is SOOOOOO good, where are the RFA offer sheets guys? It's not like they're frowned upon like they once were. If Babchuk is such a prize, something would have happened.

Yes, I wish he would have stayed here and played #6 and PP. BUT, he's not deserving of a multi-year deal with as much money as he wanted. The man thinks "taking the body" means walking into church and receiving Holy Communion. We already have on of those guys, Corvo, and we don't need another.

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11-26-2009, 09:38 AM
  #81
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You're exaggerating. I seriously doubt anyone on here would have accepted a 3 year $3 million per deal for him, but I'll leave the others to answer that themselves. Offer sheets are definitely still frowned on. How many have there been since the lockout? Two maybe? You certainly don't do it to go after someone like Babchuk, especially when you know he is going to be on the trade market.

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11-26-2009, 09:40 AM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dfence033 View Post
Consider this:

Player A: 72 games, 16 goals, 19 assists, 35 points, 9 PPG, +13, 18:04 TOI/G, 12.6% shooting

Player B: 69 games, 15 goals, 24 assists, 39 points, 8 PPG, -1, 23:08 TOI/G, 9.8% shooting

Player A and Player B have exceptionally similar stats and even play in the same division, yet Player A looks for a contract, gets offered a 1-year, $1 million deal, while Player B has a contract of 3-years, $5.75 million/year.

Can you honestly say that Babchuk is in the wrong for looking for a 3-year deal of $1.5 million/year?
Ok, let's consider it. Seriously? You really are trying to compare McCabe and Babchuk's stat lines from one season to make a point about fair value contracts? I'm almost at a loss for words - almost.

McCabe is a former All-Star and top 5 finisher for the Norris with over 1,000 NHL games. Babchuk's history up to that time last year included bolting to Russia (now twice), having gone AWOL when his poor play caused his demotion to the AHL and red-hot stretch of 25 games last season that saw him amass 12 of his 16 goals. Hardly comparable resumes.

As earlier posted, a better comparison is with journeyman, Marc-Andre Bergeron. Like Babchuk he has distinct defensive weaknesses but can contribute points and on the PP. The bottom line is that Babchuk is a stationary shooter from the point and little else, while Bergeron is a good skating puck-mover who got 14 goals last season. His contract? A 1-year $750k deal just as the season opened. Even a more proven and clearly better player like Seidenberg could only get a 1-year deal and also just as the season was starting.

Who said Babchuk was seeking $1.5 M for 3 years? It's verified he wanted the 3 years but it seems he sought more than that when he said.... "However, in other teams players with similar stats make 3 or 4 times more." http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?p=21368288

As an RFA no team would have traded for his rights without some type of guarantee they could sign him to a reasonable deal. With his past off-ice issues, lack of goal scoring track record outside of 25 games, and his recent playoff meltdown, which GM would trade for and then sign him to a multi-year deal? Many people also seem to be forgetting that most GM's were very reluctant to sign unproven players to lucrative 3-year deals that would carryover into the new CBA.


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11-26-2009, 09:48 AM
  #83
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Only offer sheets I can think of were Penner (obvious), Vanek, Kesler and Bernier. And of course there was the threat of a Kessel offer sheet which is why he went to Toronto when Nashville reportedly had the better package offered to Boston. Because there was no way that Nashville would have been able to match what Burke offered.

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11-26-2009, 11:50 AM
  #84
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I wouldn't have been shocked to see a GM give Anton an offer sheet based on how the situation went down. Does anyone think there was atleast one GM out there of the 29 not named Jimmy Rutherford that thought Anton Babchuk was being treated unfairly by JR & the Hurricanes organization like some fans truly believe? If so, why not offer an offer sheet? Of course GM's like to keep the respect and loyalty intact, but again, this is a young defenceman who scored 16 goals, is going nowhere with Carolina and being treated with the short end of the stick like many believe... for me I guess it's just a question I ponder. If someone offered an offer sheet of $863,156 - $1,307,812, it would have costed a 3rd. Or an offer of $1,307,812 - $2,615,625 would have costed a 2nd. Both offers were more than we were originally offering Anton money wise (from the beginning anyway, who knows if we actually offered 1.5 so it's hard to talk about that. We do know for a fact we offered 1 million.) I would have to think JR would gladly accept a 2nd round pick and maybe even a 3rd, heck, I would hope he would have, if not than he's an idiot. Maybe some GM's werent even willing to offer a 2nd or 3rd round pick in a trade. If Anton was that proven & attractive, I believe a team would have made a solid and respectable enough offer to acquire his rights, atleast in the form of a 2-3rd round pick. Sure teams could have low-balled JR at the start based on his media play, but when push come to shove those teams evidently didn't raise their offer to get Anton. I believe the guy just wasn't to attractive.


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11-26-2009, 01:52 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sens1Canes2 View Post
Babchuk was so awfully bad in the playoffs that he was replaced by Frank Kaberle. Since other people get to repeat 'OMG he had 16 goals!", then I get to repeat that.

There are a few Anton apologists on here that wouldn't have cringed if he was given 3 years/$9 million. And that's funny, because it just shows the blinders they have on.

If he was/is SOOOOOO good, where are the RFA offer sheets guys? It's not like they're frowned upon like they once were. If Babchuk is such a prize, something would have happened.
You guys are ridiculous. Yes, he had 16 goals. That's a fact. Lot's of first-year playoff personnel, especially young offensive defenseman, have awful starts, a lot even get benched (sound familiar?). My example, Shea Weber, had 2 goals, 3 assists, and was -3 in his first 16 playoff games. A lot of people were arguing that Weber played poorly, especially when one of those post-season performances followed a 79-game, 17 goal, 40 point, +13 season. You know who's stats those look like? (72-games, 16 goals, 35 points, +13). Yes, Babchuk struggled in the post-season, but to hammer that as the reason why he wasn't offered more than a $1 million/1-year contract is ridiculous. For those that don't know, following Weber's bad post-season, he posted 23 goals and 53 points the following year, and anchors a very good Nashville defensive corp and is the booming powerplay shot the Predators needed. I'm not saying Babchuk is the next Weber, but the potential to be great is there, and the only reason he is playing in the KHL right now is JR. JR went cheap and spiteful, then refused to listen to offers for his rights, forcing him to the KHL. If you honestly want to argue the "offer sheet," fine, you are right, no team would sign him to an offer sheet at what his value would be. As I stated, the Rangers signed Matt Gilroy to a 2-year, $1.75 million/year deal without ever sniffing an NHL game. I find it impossible to believe that a team wouldn't have signed Babchuk to a 3-year, $2-million/year deal, which would have meant giving up a 2nd-round pick, when it was clear that he could be had for at best a 3rd-round in a trade for his rights. There was no intent to sign him to an offer sheet to give JR a higher-round pick, and JR had no intention of trading him, so he forced him into the KHL, getting exactly what his spiteful, whiny, poor-pitiful-JR, nobody-loves-me style wanted. Low and behold, three months later, he miraculously comes out saying he offered $1.5 million, to the surprise of no one, since Babchuk isn't here to refute the claim, nor do I think he cares. He found a home since JR ensured that Carolina wasn't it. Saying otherwise is ridiculous.

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11-26-2009, 02:03 PM
  #86
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I will say I have no clue where people got that there was no interest in Babchuk though. Maybe not to the point of someone firing off an offer sheet, but JR himself stated that there were offers on the table. The problem is that he wasn't sure of the offers value and part of that is his own lowballing and bashing of Babchuk in the media IMO.

Anton's not entirely without issue himself though. He REALLY needs to work on his lower body strength if he wants to stick in the NHL. As bad as Ward is in terms of skating, Babchuk is not much if any better there. I can't remember too many players out there that have stuck in the NHL with just a good shot as a defenseman outside of maybe the 80s, when the league was at its weakest point in depth before the collapse of the Iron Curtain. You either have to be able to skate as well or you need to be stellar positionally.
I think a lot of the reason teams weren't willing to pony up the offer sheet, which would have almost guaranteed a 2nd-round pick going to Carolina, is the media bashing tirade that JR used to lower his value to the point where other teams were looking at getting the rights to him cheaply, especially as the situation wore on and it became evident that JR had absolutely no intention of resigning Babchuk. Babs certainly had his share of things to work on, but at 25-years old, he has a substantial career ahead of him in which to grow. A lot of Russian defenseman don't even make it to to NHL, and those that do struggle initially to adapt to the NHL game, most have physicality or positional issues, but those are "fixable." A few names that come to mind are Denis Grebeshkov and Dmitry Kulikov (going for young Russian defenseman with similar issues). Getting Aaron Ward or Andrew Alberts to have that shot that Babchuk had isn't fixable. You can't teach a shot like that. When you find one, you keep it.

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11-26-2009, 02:34 PM
  #87
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Other GMs were doing to JR what JR was doing to Babchuk. Why pay a higher price to get a player when you can get him for a lower one? Why make an offer sheet which would have cost you a 2nd/3rd when you can try and trade for his rights at a cheaper price?

They were assuming JR was desperate to get rid of Babchuk. They didn't realize how deep this grudge went.

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11-26-2009, 02:54 PM
  #88
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I guess my line of thinking is there would/should have come a time (If Babchuk was that good and attractive of a defenceman) when the GM's interested would have put their best foot forward. Why continue to beat around the bush and low-ball when you could put a serious offer (2nd/3rd round pick) and likely get this attractive, former 1st round pick, 25 year old, 16 goal defenceman? Some claim how good Babchuk is, don't you have to give to get? Sure JR was screwing Babchuk around, but wouldn't or shouldnt there come a time when teams get serious to land him if they truly thought he was good and they truly wanted him on their blueline? There comes a time in my opinion if you want something, you get aggressive and stop low-balling/screwing around. I know JR hurt his own hand via media, but in my opinion if Babchuk was that good and other teams knew it based on his on ice performance --- 16 goals, would it not be worth the 2nd round pick? (That I would imagine JR would have taken and ran with.)

It gets to a point for me that it has nothing to do with JR's actions, it has to do with how teams and GM's across the league value Anton. Everyone has scouts, everyone can find out first hand if they like a player. Teams have taken on problem players before, so that reason doesnt cut it for me with Antons value being screwed by JR's media play. If he was that good and attractive, and teams knew it, I think we would have been offered a solid pick/offer and Babchuk would have been gone. I can't say we werent offered the mentioned (nobody knows), but I can say I doubt JR would have turned down a 2nd. Maybe we did, but it was from a Division rival who JR didnt feel comfortable dealing with, which is understandable. If teams are willing to drop 2nd round picks at the deadline for rentals, why wouldnt a team do it for an attractive, young, 16 goal scoring, RFA a defenceman who could be on their blueline for years to come.


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11-26-2009, 03:54 PM
  #89
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I guess my line of thinking is there would/should have come a time (If Babchuk was that good and attractive of a defenceman) when the GM's interested would have put their best foot forward. Why continue to beat around the bush and low-ball when you could put a serious offer (2nd/3rd round pick) and likely get this attractive, former 1st round pick, 25 year old, 16 goal defenceman? Some claim how good Babchuk is, don't you have to give to get? Sure JR was screwing Babchuk around, but wouldn't or shouldnt there come a time when teams get serious to land him if they truly thought he was good and they truly wanted him on their blueline? There comes a time in my opinion if you want something, you get aggressive and stop low-balling/screwing around. I know JR hurt his own hand via media, but in my opinion if Babchuk was that good and other teams knew it based on his on ice performance --- 16 goals, would it not be worth the 2nd round pick? (That I would imagine JR would have taken and ran with.)

It gets to a point for me that it has nothing to do with JR's actions, it has to do with how teams and GM's across the league value Anton. Everyone has scouts, everyone can find out first hand if they like a player. Teams have taken on problem players before, so that reason doesnt cut it for me with Antons value being screwed by JR's media play. If he was that good and attractive, and teams knew it, I think we would have been offered a solid pick. I can't say we werent, but I can say I doubt JR would have turned down a 2nd. If teams are willing to drop 2nd round picks at the deadline for rentals, why wouldnt a team do it for an attractive, young, 16 goal scoring, RFA a defenceman who could be on their blueline for years to come.
The very reason other GMs were trying to lowball JR is because he failed to see the real value of what he had. He slaughtered Babchuk in the media, benched him in the post-season, refused to offer him anything but a 1-year, $1-million deal, and somehow you expected other GMs to go, "Hey, that guy is pretty good and is just getting screwed by a cheap GM, let's give said cheap GM a 2nd-round pick when, instead, we could wait him out on a 4th-, 3rd-, or comparable mid-range prospect instead!" That's ludicrous. No team will give up an over-valued draft pick for a guy who could have, and should have (despite JR's own stubbornness, stupidity, and egotism), been gotten for cheaper. Teams have to have a reason to want to shell out a 2nd-round pick for a guy. JR gave the teams every reason to not shell out anything of value for him, so he can do his usual cut-duck-and-run approach, then blame the player, making himself look like a martyr GM that no player likes. Babchuk was an intriguing player to several teams, if I recall correctly, the Canucks, Rangers, and a few other teams had expressed "serious interest" in acquiring the rights to Babchuk, but no GM currently holding a job would give up a draft pick 2 rounds higher than what a player should be worth, and given the JR-Babchuk situation, Babchuk was worth a 4th- to mid-3rd pick, given that he was a free-agent and would still have to be signed. No team, and I mean, no team would give up anything higher than a 3rd for any player in that situation, the risk is too high. The Rangers press speculated that JR had asked for a 2nd-round pick, so this falls on JR again, devaluing his player in the media to lowball him into a contract with the Hurricanes, then promptly over-valuing the same player to prevent a trade, blackballing the player he thought spited him into another league.

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11-26-2009, 04:31 PM
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You just made the case that other teams ignored a possibility of making their teams better cheaply simply because JR undervalued Babchuk. That is quite possibly the most illogical assertion ive ever seen on this board. And Babchuk's 2 year/3 year deal worth is totally irrelevant to the Canes since Jr decided long ago they had no intention of signing Anton long term, thus the reason for the lowball 1 year offer since there was no reason to appease a player you aren't going to use beyond this season. Its a simple business decision. I also find it funny that JR gets blame for running down his value through the media but somehow Anton doesnt get any blame for running down his value by bolting to Russia once and threatening to do it again. And again for the 9 thousandth time......Babchuk gave his own arbitration rights away. This is at least a 50/50 blame scenario, but for some reason the Anton lovers and the Organization loyalists have decided reality isnt a world they want to live in.

This thread is old and tired.........again.

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11-26-2009, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Dfence033 View Post
No team, and I mean, no team would give up anything higher than a 3rd for any player in that situation, the risk is too high. The Rangers press speculated that JR had asked for a 2nd-round pick, so this falls on JR again, devaluing his player in the media to lowball him into a contract with the Hurricanes, then promptly over-valuing the same player to prevent a trade, blackballing the player he thought spited him into another league.
If the risk at signing a long term deal is high then the fault lies with............say it with me........the player signing the deal!!

And i hate to break it to you but there have been plenty of situations where a team didnt want to pay the player because they didnt want him long term and still got equal value back because another team wanted the player.......it always comes down to other organization valuing the player. And it happens every year. Perspective people!

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11-26-2009, 04:48 PM
  #92
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Please, show me where he "threatened to do it again". It wasn't until it was completely obvious that JR wasn't going to get a deal done that Babchuk went to Russia. He stuck around the entire offseason, waiting for JR to trade him. When the NHL season was about to start, he went to the team that had room for him, which happened to be in the KHL.

It's not like he bolted to Russia the first chance he got. He even missed a couple KHL games to stick around the States to see if JR could get a deal done. He did nothing this past offseason to devalue his worth. He spoke very little to the media, he gave generic "We're hoping to see what happens" answers, he didn't respond to any of JR's shots at him.

The fact of the matter is, his NHL career rested on a guy that obviously had it out for him. You would have thought JR could put the past behind him, especially after bringing him back in the first place. JR gave all the right quotes: "Glad to have a few former 1st round picks on our defense", "Hope to have him play next year", etc., but the deal he offered made his intentions clear. There's no way you make that offer if you plan on having that player on your team the upcoming year.

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11-26-2009, 04:51 PM
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Please, show me where he "threatened to do it again". It wasn't until it was completely obvious that JR wasn't going to get a deal done that Babchuk went to Russia. .
You would have to be completely naive to believe that Russia was never used as a tool by his agent or by Anton himself. Just because you dont see quotes in the papers doesnt mean it hasnt been mentioned......hell it was mentioned on this board as soon as QO's were announced.

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11-26-2009, 04:54 PM
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There's no way you make that offer if you plan on having that player on your team the upcoming year.
Actually it is the exact deal you offer when you know you are dealing him at the deadline or letting him walk. There was never going to be a long term deal with Anton, period.

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11-26-2009, 05:13 PM
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Actually it is the exact deal you offer when you know you are dealing him at the deadline or letting him walk. There was never going to be a long term deal with Anton, period.
If you plan on having that player on your team AT ALL by the start of the next year (which JR started the offseason saying as much), you don't make that offer.

You make a similar offer if you plan on trading him at the deadline, but you don't lowball him with the same contract he just came off of. Hell, we gave Eaves 3 years at 1.4 and still managed to trade him no problem.

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11-26-2009, 05:23 PM
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You would have to be completely naive to believe that Russia was never used as a tool by his agent or by Anton himself. Just because you dont see quotes in the papers doesnt mean it hasnt been mentioned......hell it was mentioned on this board as soon as QO's were announced.
It could explain why Babs fired his first agent. Perhaps he didn't want Russia to be in the discussion until all other options were exhausted.

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11-26-2009, 06:19 PM
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If the risk at signing a long term deal is high then the fault lies with............say it with me........the player signing the deal!!

And i hate to break it to you but there have been plenty of situations where a team didnt want to pay the player because they didnt want him long term and still got equal value back because another team wanted the player.......it always comes down to other organization valuing the player. And it happens every year. Perspective people!
So, we agree on something. The risk of trading draft-picks to get a player who may or may not sign a deal is high and that's on the player to determine if they sign the proposed contract. However, the risk of trading HIGH draft picks to get a player to who may or may not sign is stupid and bad management. The risk goes up when his own team low balls him in an attempt to get a submission, knowing full well that they will accept nothing short of their proposed contract or having that player go outside of the NHL altogether. This doesn't happen every year, because those who decline the horrible contracts they are offered have the ability to hit the FA market and seek their contract requests elsewhere. Babchuk (and I'm not saying this is through no one but his own fault) had no such opportunity, and would only have gotten the contract he wanted if a trade was made. Knowing this, it seems quite clear that JR let his personal grudges get in the way of his business decisions and shut down all negotiations that weren't absolutely ludicrous (see: asking for mid-2nd-round picks), in his own demented way to force Babchuk to either sign for one year on JR's cheap terms or leave the NHL again. The risk I was suggesting for signing the long-term deal doesn't lie with the player, if the cost to take that risk is reasonable. I'm willing to bet there would have been at least a dozen offers if the asking price for his contract rights was mid-3rd, high-4th range rather than the mid-2nd that was widely reported. Teams weren't in the bidding for Babchuk, they were in a bidding for the right to give him a contract. There is a tremendous difference there. This involves another sport, but in Major League Baseball, when players are being brought over from Japan, they go through a posting process in which MLB teams have to pay the Japanese teams to even get the right talk to the players they want, even then their is no guarantee. It's bad business to give a king's ransom for the right to sign a guy, when signing the guy outright would cost the same. See how that works, or is this still not clear enough?

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11-26-2009, 06:30 PM
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Another assist and +1 rating last game for Babchuk. 13 points and +11 in 21 games on the season.

Avangard is now third in the Eastern Conference with 49 points in 27 games played. They have scored 83 goals and allowed 61. Only three teams in the league have allowed fewer goals than Avangard.

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11-26-2009, 06:48 PM
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Dfence033,

My post had a mix of sarcasm revolving around how good Anton is, or isn't for that matter, in my opinion of course. You may have missed it. Some make Babchuk out to be so good, when in reality he doesn't offer to much other than his shot. Babchuk is not a good skater, amongst the worst defensively responsible defenceman we've ever had, is easily intimidated and knocked off the puck, could easily be beaten wide, he doesn't use his size or any physicality for that matter, he is as mentally fragile as an 8 year old, inconsistent, etc. But yes, he does have a great shot. I really don't think he's to special.

I'm not about to join the Anton Babchuk pissing contest. It's gone on to long. There is definitely two sides to the story.. a very long story in which I have no interest in getting involved in, in which carries respectable, valid points on each side. It is what it is. To each their own with Anton. Some like him, others don't. For me, I had never been a big Anton fan. Did he grow on me last season? of course, but the intangibles he brings and the game isn't 'my kind of guy' if you will. I love his shot and it can be a special ingredient from the blueline, but he just isn't good for much else. I don't consider him a top 4 defenceman, I don't think he ever will fit that mold and I'd rather a guy like Alberts for the bottom pairing. I could live with Babchuk as a bottom pairing defenceman who gets PP time, but i'm not to crazy about him.


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11-26-2009, 06:50 PM
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Actually it is the exact deal you offer when you know you are dealing him at the deadline or letting him walk. There was never going to be a long term deal with Anton, period.
If you are letting him walk, you don't insult him by offering him the worst contract possible, slaughtering him through the media because of a personal vendetta, then "listen" to offers only if they are insanely disproportional to what is being offered. If you intend on trading him at the deadline, even a 2-year deal would be ideal, and would actually fetch a bit more in terms of repayment if he plays a solid first half (which he has done in the KHL, I might add). The deal was insulting to Babchuk, as it should have been. Even if he had 16 goals and all were scored in his final 5 games of the year (since you also seem to harp on how all his production came in a single stretch last season, it's called being new to the NHL, adjusting takes time and causes streaks in play), his play in those 5 games alone would have been justification for a higher payday than he was offered by the apparently almighty JR. Since my comparison to another player of similar statistics was criticized, here are some other players who were signed in the same off-season. You tell me how Babchuk matches up and see if you can still justify the asinine offer JR gave him...

Ladislav Smid, EDM (60, 0, 11, 11, -6) 2-years $1.35 million/year
Derek Morris, BOS (75, 5, 15, 20, -10) 1-year, $3.3 million
Dennis Seidenberg, FLA (70, 5, 25, 30, -9) 1-year, $2.25 million
Boris Valabik, ATL (50, 0, 5, 5, -14) 2-years, $762,500/year
Denis Grebeshkov, EDM (72, 7, 32, 29, +12), 1-year, $3.15 million
Keith Yandle, PHX (69, 4, 26, 30, -4) 2-years, $1.2 million/year
Andrew Alberts, CAR (79, 1, 12, 13, +6), 2-years, $1.05 million/year
James Wisniewski, ANA (48, 3, 21, 24, +9), 1-year, $2.75 million
Paul Mara, MTL (76, 5, 16, 21, +3), 1-year, $1.675 million


I can keep digging if I had to, but these are defenseman signed this off-season with either similar contracts to what Babchuk was offered (Valabik, Yandle, Alberts), or those who produced similarly to Babchuk and their salaries (Grebeshkov) and their stat lines from the previous year. I included others (Smid, Seidenberg, Wisniewski, Mara, and Morris) as the medians in between the production from Grebeshkov and his salary and the contracts of Valabik, Yandle, and Alberts, and their salaries. Looking at this list, I ask again, how can you possibly think it's fair to offer Babchuk a 1-year, $1 million deal?


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