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11-26-2009, 06:55 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Guerzy View Post
Dfence033,

My post had a mix of sarcasm revolving around how good Anton is, or isn't for that matter, in my opinion of course. You may have missed it. Some make Babchuk out to be so good, when in reality he doesn't offer to much other than his shot. Babchuk is not a good skater, amongst the worst defensively responsible defenceman we've ever had, is easily intimidated and knocked off the puck, could easily be beaten wide, he doesn't use his size or any physicality for that matter, he is as mentally fragile as an 8 year old, inconsistent, etc. But yes, he has a great shot. My point was, if Anton was so good, a team would have given up something decent to get him. In other words, I really don't think he's to special and I don't believe he carried to much value even after a 16 goal season.

I'm not about to join the Anton Babchuk pissing match. It's gone on to long. There is definitely two sides to the story.. a very long story in which I have no interest in getting involved in, in which carry respectable, valid points. It is what it is. To each their own with Anton. Some like him, others don't. For me, I had never been a big Anton fan. Did he grow on me last season? of course, but the intangibles he brings and the game he plays isn't 'my kind of guy' if you will.
I respect this. It's your opinion and it's well-stated. Just to throw a little extra to the fire one last time, Eric Staal has almost as many sore points (and believe me, I can list at least two major points, but that's for another thread), as Babchuk, but people don't pull him apart quite as much as I've seen Babchuk get drilled for. Maybe it's the face-of-the-franchise (which I would say is Ward more than Staal), defending-until-death mentality the Caniacs have about Staal that saves him, but there were several strong points to Bab's game as well. At 25, it would be worth to keep him around for 2-3 years for relatively cheap to see if he could be developed into a top-tier offensive defenseman. I'll say it once more, physicality and consistency can be learned and taught, a cannon attached to a stick at the blueline, not so much.

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11-26-2009, 07:22 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Guerzy View Post
Dfence033,My post had a mix of sarcasm revolving around how good Anton is, or isn't for that matter, in my opinion of course. You may have missed it. Some make Babchuk out to be so good, when in reality he doesn't offer to much other than his shot. Babchuk is not a good skater, amongst the worst defensively responsible defenceman we've ever had, is easily intimidated and knocked off the puck, could easily be beaten wide, he doesn't use his size or any physicality for that matter, he is as mentally fragile as an 8 year old, inconsistent, etc. But yes, he does have a great shot. I really don't think he's to special.
While I believe you've exaggerated some aspects of your criticism, you're right when you said he wasn't physical and was reluctant to hit. Defensively, I think he was better than you seem to believe he was (He blocked a lot of shots and used that big frame of his to increase the wingspan of his stick rather than hit), but he certainly wasn't a gem defensively either.

However, I believe a large part of his negatives were countered by being paired with Pitkanen, which is normal for a defensive pairing. You pair players that can feed off each other and counteract the partner's negative aspect. And before others jump in by saying Babchuk was leeching off of Pitkanen, I'd have to question why Joni's current defensive partner (whoever it is this week) isn't benefiting nearly as much as Babchuk had.

I think a lot of the so-called inconsistency with Babchuk came with his defensive partners. Before being paired with Pitkanen, Babchuk was paired with Melichar () and Kaberle (). You're going to see a great differential in play when your linemates change from barely NHLers to legit 1st/2nd pairing defensemen.

For me, it's not so much that we couldn't keep Babchuk. I would have liked to have kept him, even if, as you stated, it would just a bottom pairing with high PP time defenseman. But the real issue is that we let him go without getting anything for him. No matter what your opinion of a player is, there's no player that's completely worthless to 29 other teams.

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11-26-2009, 07:29 PM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dfence033 View Post
Just to throw a little extra to the fire one last time, Eric Staal has almost as many sore points (and believe me, I can list at least two major points, but that's for another thread), as Babchuk, but people don't pull him apart quite as much as I've seen Babchuk get drilled for. Maybe it's the face-of-the-franchise (which I would say is Ward more than Staal), defending-until-death mentality the Caniacs have about Staal that saves him, but there were several strong points to Bab's game as well.


Every player has sore spots whether their name is Iginla, Getzlaf, Staal, Thornton, Lecavalier, Phaneuf, Bouwmeester, etc. Saying Eric Staal has almost as many sore points as Anton Babchuk is pointless. A young Steve Yzerman had his flaws, but over the years he worked them out. Maybe Eric will to. The next couple years as he enters his prime will tell the tale. I have watched Eric since his first year of Junior here in Peterborough as a 15 year old and I am definitely looking forward to the next few years as he hits the prime years of his career. I'd argue atleast these top end players mentioned carry more valuables than the negatives, I can't say that about Anton. Not even close. Atleast these mentioned players' strengths & positives aren't out-weighed by their deficiencies and downfalls and in some cases they can be fixed or polished up easier than Anton will likely ever round out his game. Every player has respective flaws and will likely have flaws throughout their entire careers. Generally you're going to have to take the great with a flaw or two, but that's just the way it is. Very far and few between will you find the perfect player with no flaws, sores, weaknesses, etc. With that said, what Eric has proven to date far out-weigh a flaw or two as he's proven to be a winner and a franchise center in which you can rest your franchise on his shoulders without much worry. Eric's play in the playoffs defines this. The same cannot be said for a lot of the games great young players and even vets. Also, in the past 4 years combined, Eric has only been outscored in the goals column by Ovechkin, Kovalchuk, Iginla, Lecavalier and Heatley. That is very impressive company. So again, you just have to take the positive attributes and sit on some of the flaws. It is what it is and every great player likely has them. To say Eric has almost as many sore spots as Babchuk.. is useless.

As for Eric, he has his fair share of critics and they get brought up and discussed here aswell.

For me, there are a few things Eric has to brush up on.

Eric is piss poor in the faceoff circle and for a #1 center, I hope he improves. His consistency needs to become less of an issue. There are nights when Eric comes out like a bull on skates, that can't exactly be expected for all 82 games, but it has to be expected on most nights. I'd personally like to see more hustle from him getting back into the play defensively after an offensive rush for instance. On some occasions he's the last guy coming back up ice and getting into the play. I'd like to see more hustle and urgency. If I see him take one more shootout attempt and shoot it at the goaltender, i'll freak. I know for a fact he's got hands in there and it boggles my mind to no end why he doesn't get creative on a more regular basis, both in a shootout and on the ice. His playmaking isn't tops or pretty by definition, but his game today is more of a shooting, scoring forward than a typical center as much as a center should create for his wings, but it is what it is. Would better line-mates help? Likely, yes. Based on his time playing for Canada, All Star Games, etc.. he looks to pass the puck a lot nicer with skilled guys and create some plays we don't see here with Cole, but it is what it is and we'll only know the truth when we place some pure skill on his wing. As of today, it can be argued Eric may make a better winger.


Last edited by Guerzy: 11-27-2009 at 08:35 AM.
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11-26-2009, 07:30 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by imayagainknowanton View Post
Another assist and +1 rating last game for Babchuk. 13 points and +11 in 21 games on the season.

Avangard is now third in the Eastern Conference with 49 points in 27 games played. They have scored 83 goals and allowed 61. Only three teams in the league have allowed fewer goals than Avangard.
It's the KHL.

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11-26-2009, 07:34 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Sens1Canes2 View Post
It's the KHL.

Or as former Blue Jackets GM Doug MacLean put it last week after watching it... "The KHL is bush-league."

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11-26-2009, 07:46 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Sens1Canes2 View Post
It's the KHL.
Out of curiosity, what do you believe the talent level difference between the KHL and the AHL is?

Should the stats from the AHL be used as a measuring tool for players, but the ones from the KHL shouldn't be?

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11-26-2009, 07:50 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Sens1Canes2 View Post
It's the KHL.
So where did Babchuk score those 16 goals last season?

Will Aaron Ward even score a goal this season? Oh, I forgot. That's not why he's here--he's here to play defense. What a great job he's doing at that.

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11-26-2009, 07:53 PM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueline Bomber View Post
Out of curiosity, what do you believe the talent level difference between the KHL and the AHL is?

Should the stats from the AHL be used as a measuring tool for players, but the ones from the KHL shouldn't be?
Jaromir Jagr isn't even scoring at a point-per-game pace while playing on the same team as Babchuk. Inflated stats!

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11-26-2009, 07:53 PM
  #109
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There is no rational excuse for JR not signing Babchuk....or at the very least trading his rights

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11-26-2009, 08:07 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by GloveSave View Post
There is no rational excuse for JR not signing Babchuk....or at the very least trading his rights
No money for Anton. More important players to pay!

Rod Brind'Amour $3,000,000
Erik Cole $2,800,000
Sergei Samsonov $2,500,000
Scott Walker $2,500,000
Chad Larose $1,500,000
Aaron Ward $2,500,000
Niclas Wallin $1,725,000

Babchuk didn't have arbitration rights and thus allegedly didn't have any ground to stand on when he asked for more than his $1M qualifying offer despite scoring 16 goals as a defenseman. Patrick Eaves, however, was somehow able to get $1.4M/yr for three years from Rutherford despite also not being able for arbitration. How does that work? Was it because Eaves' 15 points in 37 games that season were so amazing that JR had to lock-up him up to prevent an offer sheet? Or was it because JR had no grudge to hold against Eaves over a failure to report to the minors over two years prior?

End result: Rutherford loses, Babchuk wins. Babchuk makes $1.5M with a 13% tax to play in his homeland for one of the best teams in the league, as opposed to making $1M with 50% tax to play for a total trainwreck of a team in a foreign country. Rutherford, meanwhile, watches his team rapidly sink in the standings as the old, slow, unskilled roster he put together strangely has trouble scoring goals or getting the puck past the red line.


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11-26-2009, 08:15 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Blueline Bomber View Post
Out of curiosity, what do you believe the talent level difference between the KHL and the AHL is?

Should the stats from the AHL be used as a measuring tool for players, but the ones from the KHL shouldn't be?
The TALENT level is probably better. But (and we're talking about adaptation to the NHL) you can probably go the entire game and not get touched if you were any good.

If you want to compare stats, compare them apples to apples. Find a defenceman from the KHL with similar stats to Babchuk's, and then tell me that they'll soon be signed by an NHL team. But don't say "ahh Babchuk was another +1 tonight!", like it means something.

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11-26-2009, 08:20 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Sens1Canes2 View Post
The TALENT level is probably better. But (and we're talking about adaptation to the NHL) you can probably go the entire game and not get touched if you were any good.

If you want to compare stats, compare them apples to apples. Find a defenceman from the KHL with similar stats to Babchuk's, and then tell me that they'll soon be signed by an NHL team. But don't say "ahh Babchuk was another +1 tonight!", like it means something.
Even in your example, it's not apples to apples, since if there was another such defenseman (and I'm not sure that there is), said defenseman likely wouldn't have the same NHL career that Babchuk has had, and thus, would have questions about whether or not he could produce in the NHL.

Like it or not, Babchuk produced in the KHL 2 years ago, produced in the NHL last year, and is producing in the KHL again this year. At some point, you've just got to say that there's real talent there. And giving up real talent for nothing but a grudge is stupid.

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11-26-2009, 08:53 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by imayagainknowanton View Post
End result: Rutherford loses, Babchuk wins. Babchuk makes $1.5M with a 13% tax to play in his homeland for one of the best teams in the league, as opposed to making $1M with 50% tax to play for a total trainwreck of a team in a foreign country. Rutherford, meanwhile, watches his team rapidly sink in the standings as the old, slow, unskilled roster he put together strangely has trouble scoring goals or getting the puck past the red line.


Nobody wins. Babchuk isn't playing in the greatest hockey league in the world and JR is without Babchuk/assets of some sort for him. Good or bad Canes team, it's not a plus or anything to be happy about that Anton didn't get to continue his momentum & progress in the NHL in some sort of fashion whether it be here or on another NHL team.

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11-27-2009, 08:34 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Guerzy View Post
Nobody wins. Babchuk isn't playing in the greatest hockey league in the world and JR is without Babchuk/assets of some sort for him. Good or bad Canes team, it's not a plus or anything to be happy about that Anton didn't get to continue his momentum & progress in the NHL in some sort of fashion whether it be here or on another NHL team.
Exactly. Babchuk wins only if he's like those Russians who like to stay at home and not play in the NHL. If that's true, then he can freeze in Russia for all I care.

Sometimes I wonder if some guys are Canes fans or Babchuk fans. LOL

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11-27-2009, 09:14 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Dfence033 View Post
If you are letting him walk, you don't insult him by offering him the worst contract possible, slaughtering him through the media because of a personal vendetta, then "listen" to offers only if they are insanely disproportional to what is being offered.
Really? He got slaughtered in the media? In what way? Through public comments that they wanted him back in a top 4 role to play with Pitkanen? I don't know how that wound will ever heal. He was criticized for not knowing how the RFA system works and during that time his play was never slaughtered as you contend. Nice assumption too about the offers being made. Then again, when you use McCabe as a contract comparison and Weber's playoff struggles as a point of reference, it doesn't seem relevance has a high priority.

Quote:
Originally Posted by imayagainknowanton View Post
End result: Rutherford loses, Babchuk wins.
You are looking very short-term as did Babchuk. The Canes still own his rights and if Babchuk wants to play in the NHL, which he contends, how as he won? He is a now a two-time defector who also refused a demotion, with flaws in his game, and the perception of having character issues. So if the Canes trade him at diminished value, he'll be starting over either in a bottom pairing and/or PP specialist role.

If his objective was to get a long-term contract in the NHL, he was better off playing his way to arbitration in a situation where his gaffes would be partially covered by being paired with Pitkanen. But no, he felt his 25-game hot streak = 3 year deal. To suggest some anti-Russian or anti-Euro bias is silly and you also conveniently forget Rutherford used the same RFA leverage with Cole, who was an inconsistent but promising player at the time as well.

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Originally Posted by Caner Soze View Post
Sometimes I wonder if some guys are Canes fans or Babchuk fans. LOL
Best comment of the thread. People seem to think it's two camps: Babchuk loyalists vs. organizational loyalists. That's a bit too simplistic and there is a third category: fans who analyze a situation on its relative merit instead of a conclusion-first presentation of selective information.

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11-27-2009, 09:18 AM
  #116
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This argument is damn tiresome. No one and I mean no one knows what went down this off-season. There are 2 things we are sure of: Vancouver/Rangers were interested, Babchuk wanted a 3-year deal.

Speculation out of Vancouver was that they ONLY wanted to sign him for 1 year. What if the trade was contingent on Anton signing. They spoke to Anton's agent and he was set on 3-years. Vancouver nixed the trade. How is that JRs fault?

It can go either way, but the fact is no one knows what or if anything was offered. I'd think if it was reasonable, JR would have taken it. Alot of you talk about how great he is, should JR have accepted anything less than a 4th round pick for a 25 year old defensemen who can score 16 goals.

And frankly stating everytime he gets a point in the KHL doesn't do anything. Two different teams, in two different leagues. I seriously doubt Babchuk would be our saving grace for this season. Sure he might have helped in 1 or 2 games, but this team would still be sitting in 30th. And who the hell knows how low his confidence would be right now. He probably would be the #1 whipping boy.

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11-27-2009, 09:36 AM
  #117
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"And frankly stating everytime he gets a point in the KHL doesn't do anything. Two different teams, in two different leagues. I seriously doubt Babchuk would be our saving grace for this season. Sure he might have helped in 1 or 2 games, but this team would still be sitting in 30th. And who the hell knows how low his confidence would be right now. He probably would be the #1 whipping boy."

You would think so, but with some of the comments on here you would suspect he was second coming of Jesus on the blueline whose promising NHL career was derailed as a result of our Pontius Pilate goosestepping GM.


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11-27-2009, 11:06 AM
  #118
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dont worry we will get to rehash all this in the offseason again since the Canes still own his rights another season.....sigh

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11-27-2009, 12:02 PM
  #119
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I'm dominating my men's league, anyone want to sign me to a try-out?

Seriously though, didn't Pavel Brendl tear up the KHL last year? Babchuck is an NHL caliber defenseman who could be a top 4 guy if he learned how to play in his defensive zone. He isn't doing himself any favors playing in Russia against inferior competition and probably not getting the necessary coaching to develop into a stronger defensive defenseman. Both parties screwed this up, that's a fact.

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11-27-2009, 12:11 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by caniac247 View Post
This argument is damn tiresome. No one and I mean no one knows what went down this off-season. There are 2 things we are sure of: Vancouver/Rangers were interested, Babchuk wanted a 3-year deal.
There are far more than that we're sure of. We're also sure that JR had at least one solid offer for Babchuk that he didn't take, and had at least one more team interested.

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Originally Posted by caniac247 View Post
Speculation out of Vancouver was that they ONLY wanted to sign him for 1 year. What if the trade was contingent on Anton signing. They spoke to Anton's agent and he was set on 3-years. Vancouver nixed the trade. How is that JRs fault?
You start out the post talking about how no one knows what's going on, then immediately follow it by speculation. Yes, if it was the 1-year/3-year problem, then it's Babchuk's fault. On the other hand, if JR asked for too much, then it's JR's fault. Speculation abroad, yeah?

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Originally Posted by caniac247 View Post
It can go either way, but the fact is no one knows what or if anything was offered. I'd think if it was reasonable, JR would have taken it. Alot of you talk about how great he is, should JR have accepted anything less than a 4th round pick for a 25 year old defensemen who can score 16 goals.
Better than getting nothing. As already stated, other GMs aren't going to give a fair price if they know JR's desperate to get rid of the player. JR knows how it works, he's been doing it for a while.

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Originally Posted by caniac247 View Post
And frankly stating everytime he gets a point in the KHL doesn't do anything. Two different teams, in two different leagues. I seriously doubt Babchuk would be our saving grace for this season. Sure he might have helped in 1 or 2 games, but this team would still be sitting in 30th. And who the hell knows how low his confidence would be right now. He probably would be the #1 whipping boy.
No one's stated he'd be the difference here. In fact, most have acknowledged that he wouldn't help this disaster of a team (with maybe an improved PP%). His negatives of last year wouldn't be any different than the current state of the team. He was slow, which can be said about half our defensive crew. He had low confidence, which probably can be said about half our team at the moment. About the only difference would be he wouldn't be hitting, which for this team, means less penalties.

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11-27-2009, 01:59 PM
  #121
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5 pages of arguing about a dude who isnt even playing for this team anymore?

Do you even take holidays off from this?

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11-30-2009, 02:15 AM
  #122
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Babchuk assisted on the overtime winner as Avangard defeated Amur 3-2.

But don't worry, he was on the ice for two of Amur's goals (one of them a PP goal, so he ended up even for the game) and is thus a DEFENSIVE LIABILITY. He also took a holding penalty.

/cue "Andrew Alberts would score 400 points in the KHL"

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11-30-2009, 06:47 AM
  #123
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Originally Posted by imayagainknowanton View Post
Babchuk assisted on the overtime winner as Avangard defeated Amur 3-2.

But don't worry, he was on the ice for two of Amur's goals (one of them a PP goal, so he ended up even for the game) and is thus a DEFENSIVE LIABILITY. He also took a holding penalty.

/cue "Andrew Alberts would score 400 points in the KHL"
Well Chris Simon is a ppg player over there so you're probably right about Andrew Alberts.

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11-30-2009, 07:46 AM
  #124
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Well Chris Simon is a ppg player over there so you're probably right about Andrew Alberts.
Now there's a thread killer if I've ever seen one.

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11-30-2009, 11:42 AM
  #125
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Well Chris Simon is a ppg player over there so you're probably right about Andrew Alberts.
Simon puts up those stats because he's on the worst team in the league and they have no one else. (And he's only played 15 games, so it's likely not sustainable--see his stats on the same team last year before you call him a "PPG player" in the KHL).

Simon has a similar PPG to what Jagr has on Babchuk's team.


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