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ATD12 Jim Robson Quarterfinals: 4 Toronto Toros vs. 5 St. Georges Garaga

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Old
11-25-2009, 02:49 AM
  #1
Hedberg
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ATD12 Jim Robson Quarterfinals: 4 Toronto Toros vs. 5 St. Georges Garaga

4

GM: pappyline
Coach: Tommy Gorman
Assistant Coach/Trainer:Lloyd Percival

Bert Olmstead - Jean Beliveau(C) - Andy Bathgate
Marc Tardiff - Ulf Nilsson -Bill Mosienko
Donnie Marshall - Walt Tkaczuk - Murray Balfour
Ab McDonald - Fred Stanfield - Vic Stasiuk
Bronco Horvath

Allan Stanley - Al Macinnis(A)
Elmer "Moose" Vasko - Fern Flaman(A)
Lars-Erik Sjoberg - Doug Barkley
Paul Shmyr

Harry Lumley
Al Rollins

PP1
Bert Olmstead-Jean Beliveau(C)-Andy Bathgate
Lars-Erik Sjoberg-Al MacInnes

PP2
Marc Tardiff-Ulf Nilsson -Bill Mosienko
Fred Stanfield-Doug Barkley

Pk1
Donnie Marshall-Walt Tkaczuk
Elmer "Moose" Vasko-Fern Flaman

Pk2
Fred Stanfield-Murray Balfour
Allan Stanley- Al Macinnis

Callups:
F: Nick Mickoski, George Gee, Chico Maki
D: Jack "Tex" Evans, Jim Morrison
G: "Sugar" Jim Henry

vs.

5

GM: Zamboni Mania
Head Coach: Pat Quinn

eg Noble - Nels Stewart - Guy Lafleur
Billy Burch - Jacques Lemaire (A) - Jack Darragh
Kirk Muller (A) - Marty Walsh - Jack Marshall
Georges Mantha - Glen Skov - Rejean Houle
Garry Unger, Brian Skrudland

King Clancy (C) - Sylvio Mantha
Neil Colville - Dollard St. Laurent
Bullet Joe Simpson - Ed Van Impe
Allan Cameron

Turk Broda
Vladimir Dzurilla

Callups:
F: Shorty Green, Alex Shibicky, Dave Schultz, Olivier Seibert, Jack Marks
D: Fred Lake


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Old
11-25-2009, 06:59 PM
  #2
pappyline
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Zamboni, good luck in the series. Two great teams. Too bad one of us has to lose.

When I first looked at your team, I was not impressed but the more I studied it, the more my appreciation grew. You have a lot of early era players. I usually have the oldest era team in this ATD matchups but certainly not this time. I had to do a little research on some of your players & came away quite impressed.

I still think I have the edge though. A few brief comments.

First Line

I think I have the definite edge here. Beliveau is definitely the best player on either line and is a far better centre than Stewart. Noble is good but Olmstead is better on LW. Lafleur is better on RW but it is not a big gap. I am somewhat uneasy about the chemistry of your first line wheras mine is pretty good. Olmstead & Beliveau had their best years playing together. All 3 of my guys were great passers and Beliveau & Bathgate were great goal scorers.

Second line

A bit of a tossup. My line has incredible speed & skill. You have a great 2 way centre in Lemaire and a couple of good scoring wingers.


third line

IMO, my third line is one of the best 2 way lines in the draft and could be employed as a great checking line. Your third line looks like another scoring line that may not be that good defensively.

Fourth line

Big fan of your centre. Skov was a decent scorer early in his career & a great defensive player throughout his career. Stanfield is a good centre also & a great PP pont man. We both have decent 2 way wingers.

Defense

We both have a great top 4. Top pairing is equal but I think my second pairing is a little stronger. I say this even though I really like Colville & St.laurent

Goal
You have an slight edge here with Broda who was reknowned for his playoff performances. Lumley though is incredibily under-rated. Won an early cup but spent most of the rest of his career playing on terrible teams. Still made a couple of 1st AS teams though.

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Old
11-25-2009, 11:41 PM
  #3
seventieslord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pappyline View Post
Zamboni, good luck in the series. Two great teams. Too bad one of us has to lose.

When I first looked at your team, I was not impressed but the more I studied it, the more my appreciation grew. You have a lot of early era players. I usually have the oldest era team in this ATD matchups but certainly not this time. I had to do a little research on some of your players & came away quite impressed.
Regarding the bolded part, I would not say that is true. Your teams tend to avoid the "really old" players as much as they do the "really new" players. Your teams are never really old or new; they are very era-concentrated. Your youngest player is Al MacInnis (12 years younger than your next-youngest) and your oldest player is Bill Mosienko (5 years older than the next-oldest). 21 of your 23 starters were born within a 25-year period.

I'm not going to research every single roster but I think there are at least 10 teams with 5 players older than Mosienko. Your current opponent has 13 players older than him. (yes, you have acknowledged this)

This is in no way a criticism, but I just wanted to point out that there are definitely older teams.

Quote:
First Line

I think I have the definite edge here. Beliveau is definitely the best player on either line and is a far better centre than Stewart. Noble is good but Olmstead is better on LW. Lafleur is better on RW but it is not a big gap. I am somewhat uneasy about the chemistry of your first line wheras mine is pretty good. Olmstead & Beliveau had their best years playing together. All 3 of my guys were great passers and Beliveau & Bathgate were great goal scorers.
Your first line may be the best in the draft. My only criticism is that Bathgate might be wasted. If I was fortunate enough to get Beliveau, Bathgate, and Olmstead on the same team I would get a bargain basement RW up there later, someone who does nothing but score, the kind of guy that has all his weaknesses taken care of by Bert and Jean. Like a Bondra or Mogilny. Bathgate would then be the focal point of an excellent second line. Playmaking wingers aren't exactly common. So basically, my complaint is that it's TOO good.

Quote:
third line

IMO, my third line is one of the best 2 way lines in the draft and could be employed as a great checking line. Your third line looks like another scoring line that may not be that good defensively.
Walsh's LOH bio says he was good defensively (which was news to me) and they definitely don't just say that about every early HHOFer. Marshall was a rock-solid defenseman in the second half of his career - doesn't mean he was a great defensive forward but he was fast and physical so infer from that what you will.

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Old
11-26-2009, 04:55 AM
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Regarding the bolded part, I would not say that is true. Your teams tend to avoid the "really old" players as much as they do the "really new" players. Your teams are never really old or new; they are very era-concentrated. Your youngest player is Al MacInnis (12 years younger than your next-youngest) and your oldest player is Bill Mosienko (5 years older than the next-oldest). 21 of your 23 starters were born within a 25-year period.

I'm not going to research every single roster but I think there are at least 10 teams with 5 players older than Mosienko. Your current opponent has 13 players older than him. (yes, you have acknowledged this)

This is in no way a criticism, but I just wanted to point out that there are definitely older teams.



Your first line may be the best in the draft. My only criticism is that Bathgate might be wasted. If I was fortunate enough to get Beliveau, Bathgate, and Olmstead on the same team I would get a bargain basement RW up there later, someone who does nothing but score, the kind of guy that has all his weaknesses taken care of by Bert and Jean. Like a Bondra or Mogilny. Bathgate would then be the focal point of an excellent second line. Playmaking wingers aren't exactly common. So basically, my complaint is that it's TOO good.



Walsh's LOH bio says he was good defensively (which was news to me) and they definitely don't just say that about every early HHOFer. Marshall was a rock-solid defenseman in the second half of his career - doesn't mean he was a great defensive forward but he was fast and physical so infer from that what you will.
For sure there are definitely older teams in this draft. I was referring more to previous drafts than I was to this one and I have been around since ATD #5. This strong trend toward "really old" players has increased only in the last 2 or 3 drafts. In my early drafts, I think my teams were underestimated because a lot of my players were from the 40-70 era and some guys really weren't knowledgeable about them at the time.

With regard to Bathgate on my first line, how can a line be too good? I have got two players on the same line who where both great playmakers & scorers. I think this line will really confound the opposition. When Bathgate & Beliveau have the puck they could shoot or they could pass. What will the opposition defence do--play the pass or the shot. Its not as if I don't have a great playmaker on the second line. Ulf Nilsson was one of the best ever.

Thanks for the info on Walsh & Marshall. Hard to get good info on these guys and I don't always have great confidence in the LOH site.

Hope Zamboni comes on to comment soon. He hasn't sighned in since 11/16.

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Old
11-26-2009, 10:25 PM
  #5
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Despite glowing reviews in the ass. thread, I have once again assembled a below average team. But at least this time it's not in the basement.

Quote:
Kirk Muller (A) - Marty Walsh - Jack Marshall
St. Georges third line is an in-your-face two-way line. I consciously assembled the perfect linemates for Muller in two highly underappreciated HHOFers. Here are historical quotes bolded (not my words) about the two:

Quote:
Marshall was first player to win six Stanley Cups. He was also the first player to win the Stanley Cup with four different teams... Marshall's manic, balls-to-the-wall skating style earned him the nickname the "Human Locomotive." He was a fine all-around player, a true jack-of-all-trades, who played the wings, at center, and at point. In 16 seasons, Marshall appeared in 132 games, scoring 99 times. He picked up another 13 goals in 18 career Cup games. By career's end, he had captured the Cup a remarkable six times, a record that endured for some 50 years. Marshall was elected to the Hockey Hall of Fame in 1965.
Quote:
HHOF centre Marty Walsh was a pivotal part of three Stanley Cups (1909, 1910, 1911) setting records for scoring along the way while praised for his defensive game as well: "Walsh not only tallied at will, but he did a great deal of checking as well and was on top of the rubber from beginning to end"...
Garaga's relentless pursuit line of Muller-Walsh-Marshall ought to give the opposition fits at both ends of the ice. An all-time great line imo.

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11-26-2009, 10:30 PM
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zamboni Mania View Post
Despite glowing reviews in the ass. thread, I have once again assembled a below average team. But at least this time it's not in the basement.


St. Georges third line is an in-your-face two-way line. I consciously assembled the perfect linemates for Muller in two highly underappreciated HHOFers. Here are historical quotes bolded (not my words) about the two:





Garaga's relentless pursuit line of Muller-Walsh-Marshall ought to give the opposition fits at both ends of the ice. An all-time great line imo.
It is one of my favourites in the draft. Top-5, probably. But at the same time, you're goign to be putting them up against the best top line in the draft. Which, depending on how you look at it, is either good news, or a waste of a great checking line.

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Old
11-26-2009, 10:33 PM
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hedberg View Post
eg Noble - Nels Stewart - Guy Lafleur
Reg not eg Noble... wait! my team has the eg

Quote:
Callups:
F: Shorty Green, Alex Shibicky, Dave Schultz, Olivier Seibert, Jack Marks
D: Fred Lake
Seibert grew up a goalie but switched to centre with surprising skating speed and success (G/C). Given how good a quality backup goalie Garaga has, a good third goalie wasn't a priority. And Marks is definitely a F/D, though Georges Mantha is a LW/D who would move to the blueline before a defenseman would be called up, I would think.

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11-27-2009, 09:55 AM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zamboni Mania View Post
Reg not eg Noble... wait! my team has the eg


Seibert grew up a goalie but switched to centre with surprising skating speed and success (G/C). Given how good a quality backup goalie Garaga has, a good third goalie wasn't a priority. And Marks is definitely a F/D, though Georges Mantha is a LW/D who would move to the blueline before a defenseman would be called up, I would think.
Fred Lake was also a star forward before moving back to the blueline.

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Old
11-29-2009, 01:14 PM
  #9
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St. George's Garaga wins the first round best-of-seven series 4-3.

Three stars:
1. Jean Beliveau
2. Turk Broda
3. Guy Lafleur

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11-29-2009, 02:22 PM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by God Bless Canada View Post
St. George's Garaga wins the first round best-of-seven series 4-3.

Three stars:
1. Jean Beliveau
2. Turk Broda
3. Guy Lafleur
In a tight 7 game series, it looks like this one came down to goaltending.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 11-29-2009 at 02:29 PM.
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Old
11-29-2009, 07:57 PM
  #11
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Not surprised but somewhat disappointed. Curious as to what changed peoples mind on these 2 teams as there was very little debate.

Congrats Zamboni. you put together a nice team.

I think I might take a break from these things. I have been in 6 & went out in the first round 3X and the second round 2X. the only time I got past the 2nd round, I went all the way. C'est La vie.

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11-29-2009, 08:07 PM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pappyline View Post
Not surprised but somewhat disappointed. Curious as to what changed peoples mind on these 2 teams as there was very little debate.

Congrats Zamboni. you put together a nice team.

I think I might take a break from these things. I have been in 6 & went out in the first round 3X and the second round 2X. the only time I got past the 2nd round, I went all the way. C'est La vie.
Honestly?

I'm a HUGE King Clancy fan. I think he's terribly underrated because I believe he is such a complete defenseman. Great offensive finishes but an extremely underrated defensive touch and physicality. That and Turk Broda in the playoffs. The teams were so very close, but when I saw Broda vs. Lumley, that more or less sealed it for me.

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