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ATD 12 Bob Cole Quater-Finals: 4 Cairo Desert Dogs vs. 5 Syracuse Bulldogs

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Old
11-26-2009, 09:26 PM
  #51
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I noticed that you enjoyed posting scoring finishes as a way of judging our respective team's at the forward position.

So I thought I would take a closer look at the two groups of forwards for both squads.

Gordie Howe finished in the top 5 in NHL scoring 20 times (consecutively, I might add).

Toe Blake finished in the top 5 in NHL scoring 3 times.
Teemu Selanne finished in the top 5 in NHL scoring 4 times.
Cooney Weiland finished in the top 5 in NHL scoring 1 time.
Kenny Wharram finished in the top 5 in NHL scoring 1 time.
Gaye Stewart finished in the top 5 in NHL scoring 2 times.

You're forwards as a group have a combined 11 finishes in the NHL top-5 scorers.

Gordie Howe by himself has 20 finishes in the NHL top-5 scorers.


Now when you add in my other forwards.

Frank Boucher finished in the top 5 in NHL scoring 4 times.
Sweeney Shriner finished in the top 5 in NHL scoring 3 times.
Steve Shutt finished in the top 5 in NHL scoring 1 time.
George Hay finished in the top 5 in NHL scoring 1 time.
Lorne Carr finished in the top 5 in NHL scoring 2 times.

Top 5 NHL Scoring Finishes by Team

Cairo Desert Dogs - 11
Syracuse Bulldogs - 31


I will do a post about the non-NHL'ers on both our team's later but may I suggest that the Bulldogs hold the offensive advantage up front in this particular series.

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11-26-2009, 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Leafs Forever View Post
instead of primarily goals or primarily assists?
I don't think so. Offense has two components and I like to break those two components down. Especially because they are from two eras where assist rates were different.

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11-26-2009, 09:44 PM
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This discussion kicks ass, by the way, guys. Great research!

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11-26-2009, 10:03 PM
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When not discussing this series, I'm actually reading Ken Dryden's book "Face-Off at the Summit."

For those of you unfamiliar with this somewhat overlooked book, it's a diary by Dryden of the Summit Series from the moment he received a phone call from Harry Sinden in Vienna in the summer of 1972 to the climatic game eight of the series.

Here's an entry in the book right after the Vancouver game.

Quote:
"It's difficult not to think about what Tretiak has been doing to us. In fact, we seem to think and talk about him more than any of the other Soviet players... Geez, he's only twenty, and he's doing this to us."

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11-26-2009, 10:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Canadiens Fan View Post
When not discussing this series, I'm actually reading Ken Dryden's book "Face-Off at the Summit."

For those of you unfamiliar with this somewhat overlooked book, it's a diary by Dryden of the Summit Series from the moment he received a phone call from Harry Sinden in Vienna in the summer of 1972 to the climatic game eight of the series.

Here's an entry in the book right after the Vancouver game.
It is one of the numerous books I have that I haven't had the time to read yet. I'm looking forward to it, though. It's definitely overlooked. When people think Dryden, they think The Game.

speaking of which, what hockey books have been written solely by hockey players, not "with so and so" or "as told to so and so"?

The only ones I know of, are Dryden's books, and Danny Lewicki's book (which I just got and appears to have a wealth of O6 info)

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11-26-2009, 10:13 PM
  #56
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Myshkin played in losses, Tretiak went 4-0 in the 1983 Super Series
Aaa, ok. I believe that puts Tretiak at around 27-28 games..any other games in the series he didn't play?



Quote:
Tretiak played 30 games against best-on-best competition.

In those games his goals against average was 3.12.

I would equate those 30 games as the "equivalent" of Hall's playoff games. However, one must also say that Hall never in his entire career faced any team's the equivalent of Team Canada 1972, 1976 or 1981.
I was just using his two best runs (most likely) in the playoffs; cup run with chicago and Conn Smythe run with the blues. You think Hall wasn't playing very well in the high-pressure playoffs the year he won that Smythe? Or in that cup run for that matter? I'll find quotes if necessary. And those aren't his only good runs either; he seemed to be playing pretty good in that Detroit run to the finals, and I am sure there are more I can find too.

As for the notion Hall never faced a team like the Team canada in '72...

The '56 canadiens:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/MTL/1956.html

That team features:

- 3 top-10 players, who are a top-3 defenceman all-time, the second best RW all-time, and the 3rd best centre all-time. (Harvey, M.Richard, Beliveau)

- A top-3 goalie all-time (Plante)

-Besides those guys, Bernie Geoffrion, Bert Olmstead, Dickie Moore, Henri Richard, claude Provost, Ken Mosdell, Don Marshall, Jean-Guy Talbot, dollard St.Laurent, Tom Johnson, Butch Bouchard.

And by description, Hall did pretty good against these guys. I think this team can compete with those Team canada's.

Of course I find it interesting you question Hall's competition was worse when much of Tretiak's accomplishments came against weaker teams than Hall faced night-in night-out.

Quote:
Also, in 11 Super Series games against the NHL's best squads he went 8-3-1 with a goals against average with a 2.62 goals against.

The fact is when the game mattered most, under the most intense pressure, Tretiak was the better goalie.
Well, the super series were just "exhibition" games against NHL clubs who featured players of various nationalities, so I am going to question if they really had the same intense pressure of the cup playoffs. And, simply due to less teams, Hall's competition in the 06 was likely better than these NHL clubs.

It is questionable whether a number of these games had the same pressure as ih Hall's playoff runs, whether Tretiak was really better than Hall in the pressure. Hall certainly has the better longevity of the "matter most, most intense pressure" record with many more playoff games in best on best, so I am going to have to disagree with the notion.

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11-26-2009, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
It is one of the numerous books I have that I haven't had the time to read yet. I'm looking forward to it, though. It's definitely overlooked. When people think Dryden, they think The Game.

speaking of which, what hockey books have been written solely by hockey players, not "with so and so" or "as told to so and so"?

The only ones I know of, are Dryden's books, and Danny Lewicki's book (which I just got and appears to have a wealth of O6 info)
Very few hockey player autobiographies don't employ a "ghostwriter."

This Dryden book because it's in diary form really gives one an insight into his mindset as events happen.

For example, here's a tidbit I just read ...

Quote:
September 20

"I've resigned myself to the fact that I probably won't be playing in Moscow. Tony played very well the first game in Stockholm, and Eddie was superb in the second game. They'll probably split the games in Russia. Now I'll have to think about getting myself ready for the start of the NHL season. We still have a whole season to play."

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11-26-2009, 10:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Leafs Forever View Post

As for the notion Hall never faced a team like the Team canada in '72...

The '56 canadiens:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/MTL/1956.html

That team features:

- 3 top-10 players, who are a top-3 defenceman all-time, the second best RW all-time, and the 3rd best centre all-time. (Harvey, M.Richard, Beliveau)

- A top-3 goalie all-time (Plante)

-Besides those guys, Bernie Geoffrion, Bert Olmstead, Dickie Moore, Henri Richard, claude Provost, Ken Mosdell, Don Marshall, Jean-Guy Talbot, dollard St.Laurent, Tom Johnson, Butch Bouchard.

And by description, Hall did pretty good against these guys. I think this team can compete with those Team canada's.
1976 Canada Cup roster

Bill Barber, Bobby Clarke, Marcel Dionne, Phil Esposito, Bob Gainey, Danny Gare, Bobby Hull, Guy Lafleur, Guy Lapointe, Reggie Leach, Richard Martin, Peter Mahovlich, Lanny McDonald, Bobby Orr, Gilbert Perreault, Denis Potvin, Larry Robinson, Serge Savard, Steve Shutt, Darryl Sittler, Carol Vadnais, Jimmy Watson, Gerry Cheevers, Glenn Resch, Rogatien Vachon

That team features ...

- 17 Hall of Famer's

- 10 players in the ATD Top 100 (2008)

- the greatest player of all-time

As good as the Canadiens were in 1956, they are a club team, a team like Team Canada 1976 will be able to match them up front and are way ahead of them on the backend with much better 3rd and 4th lines as well as superior 2nd and 3rd defense pairings.

1956 Habs defense - Harvey, Johnson, St. Laurent, Turner, Bouchard, Talbot
1976 Canada defense - Orr, Potvin, Savard, Lapointe, Robinson

Again, Hall never faced a team as good as Team Canada '76

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafs Forever View Post
Well, the super series were just "exhibition" games against NHL clubs who featured players of various nationalities, so I am going to question if they really had the same intense pressure of the cup playoffs.
Ask any members of the 1975-76 Canadiens or 1975-76 Flyers about the pressure of these "exhibition" games.

Quote:
Legends of Hockey
The game was deemed an exhibition contest, but neither team considered it any less than the most important game they'd ever played. "We took the game very seriously," Shutt admits. "In our eyes, this was a game to determine who was the best team in the world."


Last edited by Canadiens Fan: 11-26-2009 at 10:40 PM.
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11-26-2009, 10:45 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Canadiens Fan View Post
I noticed that you enjoyed posting scoring finishes as a way of judging our respective team's at the forward position.

So I thought I would take a closer look at the two groups of forwards for both squads.

Gordie Howe finished in the top 5 in NHL scoring 20 times (consecutively, I might add).

Toe Blake finished in the top 5 in NHL scoring 3 times.
Teemu Selanne finished in the top 5 in NHL scoring 4 times.
Cooney Weiland finished in the top 5 in NHL scoring 1 time.
Kenny Wharram finished in the top 5 in NHL scoring 1 time.
Gaye Stewart finished in the top 5 in NHL scoring 2 times.

You're forwards as a group have a combined 11 finishes in the NHL top-5 scorers.

Gordie Howe by himself has 20 finishes in the NHL top-5 scorers.


Now when you add in my other forwards.

Frank Boucher finished in the top 5 in NHL scoring 4 times.
Sweeney Shriner finished in the top 5 in NHL scoring 3 times.
Steve Shutt finished in the top 5 in NHL scoring 1 time.
George Hay finished in the top 5 in NHL scoring 1 time.
Lorne Carr finished in the top 5 in NHL scoring 2 times.

Top 5 NHL Scoring Finishes by Team

Cairo Desert Dogs - 11
Syracuse Bulldogs - 31


I will do a post about the non-NHL'ers on both our team's later but may I suggest that the Bulldogs hold the offensive advantage up front in this particular series.
-Conveniently for you, this exludes my best offensive player who was, by very far, the best PCHA scorer in history (the league your non-NHL scorers come from)

- Carr's finishes came in war years.

- All this shows is how great Howe is (which we all already know), while ignores what Taylor does. In fact, as you exlude my best offensive player, why not exlude your best offensive player? We exlude Howe, it's tied 11-11. So, I'm not seeing the offensive advantage in top-5's for NHLers outside of Howe. Nice try though.

Let alone how top-5's are somewhat narrow, and not all top 5's are created equal- and a top-10 season also has value. Why not use top-10's?

Toe Blake finished top 10 in points 6 times.
Teemu Selanne finished top 10 in points 6 times.
Weiland finished top 10 in points twice.
Fleury finished top 10 in points three times.
Wharram finished top 10 in points 3 times.
Stewart finished top 10 in points twice.
Total: 22
-Two players (not best player) from top line- two player from second line- one guy form third line and one guy from fourth

Sweeney Schriner finished top 10 in points 6 times.
Frank Boucher finished top 10 in points 8 times.
Shutt finished top 10 in points once.
Gartner finish top 10 in points once.
Hay finished top 10 in points twice.
Carr has finished top 10 in points three times (two are war years)
Total: 21
Two players (not best player) from top line- two players from second line- two players from third line.

Of course I believe my other two fourth lines are better than yours offensively (which I will try to demonstrate).

Overall, your forwards will likely have somewhat of an offensive potentital edge due to Howe, I will concede- but the defensive edge my forwards have will be greater than the offensive you got. Your 2nd and third line are practically useless defensively; my second line features a pair of two great guys for a two-way line, while my third line feature the the, by far, best defensive forward of the series and another great defensive centre., and the added defense is why they will win.

Backed up by the much better and more suitable (in certain matchup) D, and my forwards are going to be the ones scoring more, all factors considered. We've been through why my first line will be scoring more than your first line, featuring Howe, and once you subtract Howe, offense seems rather close- but my bottom-9 forwards have a bigger defensive edge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I don't think so. Offense has two components and I like to break those two components down. Especially because they are from two eras where assist rates were different.
But don't the assist rates apply to every player from their respective era?

Sure, offense has two components and breaking down is good, but evidently points is essentially the combination between the two offenses, no?

Did the guys I questioned do as much in the playoffs as Weiland did, by the way?

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11-26-2009, 10:51 PM
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1976 Canada Cup roster

Bill Barber, Bobby Clarke, Marcel Dionne, Phil Esposito, Bob Gainey, Danny Gare, Bobby Hull, Guy Lafleur, Guy Lapointe, Reggie Leach, Richard Martin, Peter Mahovlich, Lanny McDonald, Bobby Orr, Gilbert Perreault, Denis Potvin, Larry Robinson, Serge Savard, Steve Shutt, Darryl Sittler, Carol Vadnais, Jimmy Watson, Gerry Cheevers, Glenn Resch, Rogatien Vachon

That team features ...

- 17 Hall of Famer's

- 10 players in the ATD Top 100 (2008)

- the greatest player of all-time

As good as the Canadiens were in 1956, they are a club team, a team like Team Canada 1976 will be able to match them up front and are way ahead of them on the backend with much better 3rd and 4th lines as well as superior 2nd and 3rd defense pairings.

1956 Habs defense - Harvey, Johnson, St. Laurent, Turner, Bouchard, Talbot
1976 Canada defense - Orr, Potvin, Savard, Lapointe, Robinson

Again, Hall never faced a team as good as Team Canada '76
Perhaps so- but you were making the case for the '72 and '81 teams as well, which I think those Canadiens could fare well against. And this is one series Tretiak played in; he wasn't playing against this type of competition all the time, and although those Canadiens were the best Hall ever faced, likely, Hall was playing against the best teams in the world all the time in his time.


Quote:
Ask any members of the 1975-76 Canadiens or 1975-76 Flyers about the pressure of these "exhibition" games.
But what about the later super series games when the Soviets weren't playing against teams that could really make a claim for best in the world like those Canadiens could?

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11-26-2009, 10:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Leafs Forever View Post
Perhaps so- but you were making the case for the '72 and '81 teams as well, which I think those Canadiens could fare well against. And this is one series Tretiak played in; he wasn't playing against this type of competition all the time, and although those Canadiens were the best Hall ever faced, likely, Hall was playing against the best teams in the world all the time in his time.
You said all team's but fine, let's look at the 1981 Canada Cup roster then.

Barry Beck, Raymond Bourque, Mike Bossy, Marcel Dionne, Ron Duguay, Brian Engblom, Clark Gillies, Danny Gare, Bob Gainey, Butch Goring, Wayne Gretzky, Craig Hartsburg, Guy Lafleur, Ken Linseman, Rick Middleton, Gilbert Perreault, Denis Potvin, Paul Reinhart, Larry Robinson, Bryan Trottier, Don Edwards, Mike Liut, Billy Smith.

- 12 Hall of Famers

- 9 Top 100 ATD Players (2008)

- the player considered by many the top player ever

Oh, and Tretiak won the tournament MVP against this team

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11-26-2009, 11:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Canadiens Fan View Post
You said all team's but fine, let's look at the 1981 Canada Cup roster then.

Barry Beck, Raymond Bourque, Mike Bossy, Marcel Dionne, Ron Duguay, Brian Engblom, Clark Gillies, Danny Gare, Bob Gainey, Butch Goring, Wayne Gretzky, Craig Hartsburg, Guy Lafleur, Ken Linseman, Rick Middleton, Gilbert Perreault, Denis Potvin, Paul Reinhart, Larry Robinson, Bryan Trottier, Don Edwards, Mike Liut, Billy Smith.

- 12 Hall of Famers

- 9 Top 100 ATD Players (2008)

- the player considered by many the top player ever

Oh, and Tretiak won the tournament MVP against this team
Pretty darn good. Better than those Habs? Debatable I think, especially looking in net.

Yes, I did mention to look at all competition; hence why looking at three best is misleading. Glenn Hall's much greater longevity playing in best on best situations, that is to say if you were to start from worst teams both goalies played against in their major-league careers and looked up, it'd likely be a long time before Tretiak's opposition started comparing to Hall's, as well as the factor of playing a lot more than 30 games and doing well in more than 30 games in best on best situations, gives Hall the edge.

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11-26-2009, 11:14 PM
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Glenn Hall's much greater longevity playing in best on best situations.
Glenn Hall became the Red Wings starting goaltender in 1955-56 and was a top-level goaltender until 1968-69 - a span of 14 seasons.

Vladislav Tretiak became the starting goalie for the Soviet Union's national team and was named to the Soviet Elite League first all-star team in 1970 and retired in the spring of 1984 after the Olympics - a span of 14 seasons.

Explain to me how Glenn Hall has much greater longevity.

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11-26-2009, 11:35 PM
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Hall never faced a team as good as Team Canada '76
Of course Hall never played for a team as strong as the Soviet national team.

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11-26-2009, 11:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Canadiens Fan View Post
Glenn Hall became the Red Wings starting goaltender in 1955-56 and was a top-level goaltender until 1968-69 - a span of 14 seasons.

Vladislav Tretiak became the starting goalie for the Soviet Union's national team and was named to the Soviet Elite League first all-star team in 1970 and retired in the spring of 1984 after the Olympics - a span of 14 seasons.

Explain to me how Glenn Hall has much greater longevity.
He means that Hall played his whole career against the top players in the world. Tretiak only played 30 games.

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11-26-2009, 11:43 PM
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-Conveniently for you, this exludes my best offensive player who was, by very far, the best PCHA scorer in history (the league your non-NHL scorers come from)
Taylor finished top 5 in points five times.
Harris finished top 5 in points four times.
Walker finished top 5 in points one time.

Frederickson finished top 5 in points four times.
Dunderdale finished top 5 in points five times.

Top Five PCHA Scoring finishes.

Cairo Desert Dogs - 10
Syracuse Bulldogs - 9

Now this is just forwards, if we add defenseman Lloyd Cook then the two teams are tied for top 5's.

Seem's pretty equal to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafs Forever View Post
-Let alone how top-5's are somewhat narrow, and not all top 5's are created equal- and a top-10 season also has value. Why not use top-10's?

Toe Blake finished top 10 in points 6 times.
Teemu Selanne finished top 10 in points 6 times.
Weiland finished top 10 in points twice.
Fleury finished top 10 in points three times.
Wharram finished top 10 in points 3 times.
Stewart finished top 10 in points twice.
Total: 22

Sweeney Schriner finished top 10 in points 6 times.
Frank Boucher finished top 10 in points 8 times.
Shutt finished top 10 in points once.
Gartner finish top 10 in points once.
Hay finished top 10 in points twice.
Carr has finished top 10 in points three times (two are war years)
Total: 21
And when we add Gordie Howe's 21 top ten scoring finishes.

Top Ten NHL Scoring finishes.

Cairo Desert Dogs - 22
Syracuse Bulldogs - 42

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11-26-2009, 11:46 PM
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He means that Hall played his whole career against the top players in the world. Tretiak only played 30 games.
Really, how many games did Hall play against the Russians, the Swedes, the Czechs ??

Glenn Hall played against the top players in the NHL, not the top players in the world.

Vladislav Tretiak did both.

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11-26-2009, 11:54 PM
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Really, how many games did Hall play against the Russians, the Swedes, the Czechs ??

Glenn Hall played against the top players in the NHL, not the top players in the world.

Vladislav Tretiak did both.
I think it's pretty fair to assume that about 75-80% of the top players in the world were in the NHL. They were spread over only 6 teams.

That last 20-25% was spread over Europe and Russia.... and most of the one in Russia played with Tretiak.

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11-26-2009, 11:59 PM
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I think it's pretty fair to assume that about 75-80% of the top players in the world were in the NHL. They were spread over only 6 teams.

That last 20-25% was spread over Europe and Russia.... and most of the one in Russia played with Tretiak.
Completely agree.

We live in a time where the best players all play in the NHL with the odd exception.

Sadly, back in the day we were deprived of seeing a Anatoli Firsov come down one-on-one on a waiting Glenn Hall.

A true loss for every hockey fan.

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11-27-2009, 12:43 AM
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Completely agree.

We live in a time where the best players all play in the NHL with the odd exception.

Sadly, back in the day we were deprived of seeing a Anatoli Firsov come down one-on-one on a waiting Glenn Hall.

A true loss for every hockey fan.
So you agree that Tretiak played in a league that had about 10% of the top players in the world. If you take into account the fact that most of the top players in the Soviet league were on Tretiak's CSKA team. That leaves very few top players who Tretiak had to face in league play.

Also, his international games weren't all against best of the best. How many of his games against Canada were really against our best players? How many were against amateurs? How many were against some, but not all, our best players.

The Summit Series, for example, was missing Bobby Orr and Bobby Hull. The Bobbys were probably the #1 and #2 players in the world at the time.

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11-27-2009, 01:25 AM
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So you agree that Tretiak played in a league that had about 10% of the top players in the world. If you take into account the fact that most of the top players in the Soviet league were on Tretiak's CSKA team. That leaves very few top players who Tretiak had to face in league play.
I don't recall agreeing or saying that Russia had only 10% of the world's best players back then.

If you could show me where I made that comment I'd like to see that.

As you can appreciate I don't like people putting words in my mouth for me.

So according to your math in the late 60's/early 70's then 70%-75% of the best players were in the NHL, 10% in Russia leaving 15% throughout the rest of the world.

I think you're percentages are a little off.

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Also, his international games weren't all against best of the best. How many of his games against Canada were really against our best players? How many were against amateurs? How many were against some, but not all, our best players.

The Summit Series, for example, was missing Bobby Orr and Bobby Hull. The Bobbys were probably the #1 and #2 players in the world at the time.
And in 1972 the Russian's were missing Firsov and who was the best forward in the Soviet Union throughout the sixties.

The 1976 Canada Cup, for example, win by the host country doesn't mean as much according to your theory because Russia left the following players at home - Gennady Tsygankov, Yuri Lyapkin, Valeri Kharlamov, Boris Mikhailov, Vladimir Petrov, Vladimir Shadrin, and Alexander Yakushev, all of whom were part of their 1976 Olympic gold medal winning squad.


Last edited by Canadiens Fan: 11-27-2009 at 01:30 AM.
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Old
11-27-2009, 06:45 AM
  #72
Leafs Forever
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Quote:
Taylor finished top 5 in points five times.
Harris finished top 5 in points four times.
Walker finished top 5 in points one time.

Frederickson finished top 5 in points four times.
Dunderdale finished top 5 in points five times.

Top Five PCHA Scoring finishes.

Cairo Desert Dogs - 10
Syracuse Bulldogs - 9

Now this is just forwards, if we add defenseman Lloyd Cook then the two teams are tied for top 5's.

Seem's pretty equal to me.
Of course the problem I have is, again, not all top 5's are created equal. How many of Taylor's were top-2 to the rest of the forwards?

By the way, where'd you get points finished by these guys anyways?

Do you really think Dunderdale equates to Taylor offensively? By your standards, that is the case. Just to use the playmaking and goalscoring studies:

Top 2's-Top 5's-Top 10's-Top 15's-Top 20's

Playmaking:
Taylor- 6-7-7-8-8
Dunerdale- 0-1-3-5-6

Goalscoring:
Taylor- 1-5-5-5-5
Dunderdale-0-3-4-9-11

Total:

Taylor: 7-12-12-13-13
Dunderdale: 0-4-7-14-17

It's not even close.

This sytem you are trying to win by, evidently, is highly flawed. Compare position by position, player to player, so we can evaluate EVERY aspect of a player of comparison, instead of trying to make blanket statements with top-5's and thinking people will fall for it.

Of couse you want to add Cook, you start opening a whole new can of worms.


Quote:
And when we add Gordie Howe's 21 top ten scoring finishes.

Top Ten NHL Scoring finishes.

Cairo Desert Dogs - 22
Syracuse Bulldogs - 42
Again, we all know what Howe does; and again, already looked at why my top line will score more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens Fan View Post
Completely agree.

We live in a time where the best players all play in the NHL with the odd exception.

Sadly, back in the day we were deprived of seeing a Anatoli Firsov come down one-on-one on a waiting Glenn Hall.

A true loss for every hockey fan.
Sadly, we were deprived of seeinng Jean beliveau or Gordie or a prime Bobby Hull who come down one-on-one on a waiting Vladislav Tretiak..A true loss for every hockey fan.

Quote:
I don't recall agreeing or saying that Russia had only 10% of the world's best players back then.

If you could show me where I made that comment I'd like to see that.

As you can appreciate I don't like people putting words in my mouth for me.

So according to your math in the late 60's/early 70's then 70%-75% of the best players were in the NHL, 10% in Russia leaving 15% throughout the rest of the world.

I think you're percentages are a little off.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur
I think it's pretty fair to assume that about 75-80% of the top players in the world were in the NHL. They were spread over only 6 teams.

That last 20-25% was spread over Europe and Russia.... and most of the one in Russia played with Tretiak.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens Fan View Post
Completely agree.

We live in a time where the best players all play in the NHL with the odd exception.
Of course, this doesn't have you quite agreeing with what the split is of that 20-25% between Russia and Europe..care to give your own take?


Quote:
And in 1972 the Russian's were missing Firsov and who was the best forward in the Soviet Union throughout the sixties.

The 1976 Canada Cup, for example, win by the host country doesn't mean as much according to your theory because Russia left the following players at home - Gennady Tsygankov, Yuri Lyapkin, Valeri Kharlamov, Boris Mikhailov, Vladimir Petrov, Vladimir Shadrin, and Alexander Yakushev, all of whom were part of their 1976 Olympic gold medal winning squad.

You don't really feel missing Firsov compared to missing Bobby Orr and Bobby Hull, do you?

Well it may depend on who they left had in place of these guys and how they were playing at the time, but perhaps it didn't mean as much- at least if their likely prime competition wasn't at near full strength.

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11-27-2009, 07:57 AM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafs Forever View Post
Of course the problem I have is, again, not all top 5's are created equal. How many of Taylor's were top-2 to the rest of the forwards?

By the way, where'd you get points finished by these guys anyways?

Do you really think Dunderdale equates to Taylor offensively? By your standards, that is the case. Just to use the playmaking and goalscoring studies:

Top 2's-Top 5's-Top 10's-Top 15's-Top 20's

Playmaking:
Taylor- 6-7-7-8-8
Dunerdale- 0-1-3-5-6

Goalscoring:
Taylor- 1-5-5-5-5
Dunderdale-0-3-4-9-11

Total:

Taylor: 7-12-12-13-13
Dunderdale: 0-4-7-14-17

It's not even close.
No one is arguing with the greatness of Cyclone Taylor. I'm disagreeing with how much of a gap you have between Taylor (your first line center) and Frederickson and Dunderdale (my second & third line centers).

Best Five Finishes in Goals PCHA

Cyclone Taylor - 1, 1, 1, 2, 2
Tommy Dunderdale - 1, 1, 1, 3, 6
Frank Frederickson - 1, 3, 4, 4 (only played 4 years)

Taylor and Dunderdale each led the PCHA in goals 3 times. That would be as close as one could get.

Best Five Finishes in Assists PCHA

Cyclone Taylor - 1, 1, 1, 1, 1
Tommy Dunderdale - 3, 4, 5, 6, 6
Frank Frederickson - 1, 2, 3, 3 (only played 4 years)

Clearly Taylor is second to none in this category.

Best Five Finishes in Points PCHA

Cyclone Taylor - 1, 1, 1, 1, 1
Tommy Dunderdale - 1, 1, 3, 3, 5
Frank Frederickson - 1, 2, 2, 3

Taylor 5 scoring titles, Dunderdale 2 scoring titles, Frederickson 1 scoring title.

Head to Head, Taylor vs. Dunderdale, PCHA

1912-1913 - Dunderdale 23 points Taylor 18 points
1913-1914 - Taylor 39 points Dunderdale 28 points
1914-1915 - Taylor 45 points Dunderdale 27 points
1915-1916 - Taylor 35 points Dunderdale 17 points
1916-1917 - Taylor 29 points Dunderdale 26 points
1917-1918 - Taylor 43 points Dunderdale 20 points
1918-1919 - Taylor 36 points Dunderdale 9 points
1919-1920 - Dunderdale 33 points Taylor 19 points

*Although Taylor played in the PCHA in 1921 and 1922 they were not full schedules so I left them out.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafs Forever View Post
Of course, this doesn't have you quite agreeing with what the split is of that 20-25% between Russia and Europe..care to give your own take?
If we're talking late 60's/early 70's I would peg the talent distribution as ...

NHL 75%, Russia 20%, rest of the world 5%


Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafs Forever View Post
You don't really feel missing Firsov compared to missing Bobby Orr and Bobby Hull, do you?
Anatoli Firsov

-Soviet MVP: 1968, 1969, and 1971
-Soviet scoring champion: 1966
-Soviet goal-scoring leader: 1966
-IIHF World Championships scoring leader: 1967, 1968, 1969, 1971
-IIHF World Championships goal-scoring leader: 1967, 1968, 1969, 1971
-IIHF World Championships best forward: 1967, 1968, 1971

Quote:
Joe Pelletier
It is a common argument by proud Canadians that if Bobby Orr was not unable to play due to injury, the 1972 Summit Series would have been a much different story. Orr was at the prime of his career and the best in the world.

Or was he?

Anatoli Firsov also missed the 1972 Summit Series showdown between the Soviets and the NHL. He is of legendary status in Russian hockey. Some old time Russian observers will tell you he was the best ever.

Firsov is one of only 4 players to have his number retired in Soviet hockey (Bobrov, Tretiak and Kharlamov being the others). Firsov's scoring exploits that helped establish the Soviet Union's dominance of the international hockey scene. Firsov's finest moment came in the 1968 Olympics in Grenoble France. Firsov led all scorers with 12 goals and 16 points as the Soviets won every game to become the Gold Medal champs.
There's no doubt that missing Firsov was a big blow to the Russians. On the level of a missing Orr, of course not, but closer to the Canadians missing Bobby Hull.

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Old
11-27-2009, 10:19 AM
  #74
seventieslord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafs Forever View Post
But don't the assist rates apply to every player from their respective era?

Sure, offense has two components and breaking down is good, but evidently points is essentially the combination between the two offenses, no?

Did the guys I questioned do as much in the playoffs as Weiland did, by the way?
I would say yes.

Anyway, yes, the assist rates apply to every player from their respective era. And this is why it is important to use assists separately and not points, which are distorted based on the assist rate.

Canadiens Fan: Did you use my Morris bio for those "best 5 finishes"? Nice digging!

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Old
11-27-2009, 10:31 AM
  #75
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For what it's worth, Tretiak played behind equally as stacked teams in the '72 Series, and the other tournaments his team was far, far better, as evidenced by the dismantling of Canada in '76.

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