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Latendresse traded to Wild for Benoit Pouliot, Part 3

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Old
11-27-2009, 10:18 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
The problem about trying to get Latendresse to score more goals 5-on-5 is that if he had done that last year, he'd have been outdoing Cammalleri at it.

Seriously. They were tied in ESG/60 last year.

Yes, I'm only talking about 5-on-5 goals and not the rest of his game, and that's only one very narrow but very important thing, but people just don't realize just how good he was at that one thing.

At the rate he was popping them in last year, it was practically impossible to ask him to pop more without giving him more icetime. About the only way he could've scored more goals was to start putting them in on the PP, and that was one thing he has not been any good at (oddly).
I'm sorry man...you're putting in Latendresse's name in with Cammalleri and I just can't jive with that. I know you're big on numbers and I actually give alot of credence to alot of your arguments, but somethings can't be measured with numbers.

Latendresse scoring against #5-6 dmen vs. Latendresse scoring against teams top pairings is a whole different story. His game isn't well rounded enough to play against quality opposition, and that's why everytime he was given an opportunity he failed everytime, he can't keep up with the pace and doesn't contribute enough in other areas to ignore the lack of production

Come on MathMan...let's see how Cammalleri would do playing against #5-6 dmen and Latendresse playing against teams top pairing for one season.

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11-27-2009, 11:02 AM
  #52
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Latendresse on a line with Koivu and Brunette today. Not surprising. Will have all the chances to succeed. We will see how it last.

As far as Pouliot is concerned, I still have confidence in him though, it might also turn out as the '09 version of Éric Chouinard. We also will see soon where it's headed.

Latendresse's game is at 2PM if you are interested....

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11-27-2009, 11:03 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
I'm sorry man...you're putting in Latendresse's name in with Cammalleri and I just can't jive with that. I know you're big on numbers and I actually give alot of credence to alot of your arguments, but somethings can't be measured with numbers.
True, some things can't be measured with numbers, but goal-scoring can. And I certainly ain't making it up.

http://www.behindthenet.ca/2008/new_...oi=&team=&pos=

Sure, he did it mostly against third lines and second pairing D-men and Cammalleri was doing it against top-flight opposition. (Although you do have to factor in Cammy had Iginla and Lats had Kostopoulos.) But that remains a staggeringly high number, especially for a 22-year-old player.

This amount of goal-scoring is valuable no matter how it happens. Trying to dismiss it because somehow goals don't count if it's Lats scoring them or if third-pairing D-men are on the ice is silly. If Lats is a fantastic scorer from the third line and nothing else, that's still a very useful quality. At 800k, it's not like he's keeping you from getting good second liners and it's not like you'd suffer from matching him up against the bottom of the opposition's roster.

It's difficult to understand why the coaches would not want for him to keep this up even if they decide he is not ready for a top-six role, it's puzzling how that little stat alone does not merit him at least some consideration for a scoring role or really any consideration at all from some people, and it really ought to make you wonder why his scoring has completely cratered this year after three years of constant improvement.

And besides, my real point here is that asking Latendresse to score more goals, by driving to the net or otherwise, was a little silly to begin with. Latendresse was simply not likely to score more goals unless he got more icetime, or started scoring them on the PP. Very few players squeeze as many goals as he does in the icetime he gets, third line or not. Trying to teach Latendresse how he can score goals at the NHL level was always a little silly. It should have been abundantly clear he already knew.

We used to have a fantastic third-line goal-scorer. Instead now we have Pouliot, who has lots of unrealized upside and not much else. Well, some decent goal-scoring stats in limited action this year, let's hope he keeps it up. But I think the Wild will be quite happy with Lats if they use him well.

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11-27-2009, 11:06 AM
  #54
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We used to have a fantastic third-line goal-scorer.
When?

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11-27-2009, 11:11 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by natey2k4 View Post
In the new NHL, skating has a lot to do with drafting. Latendresse has been a poor skater forever (he's average now) where-as Pouliot is a good skater.

You also have to look at the fact that, for the most part, the Q is the most offensive league of the 3 CHL leagues, but for the most part, the least physical as well. The OHL is like a mix of the WHL and the Q.

Pouliot, while smaller, also put up quite a few more PIMs, which would suggest he's the grittier (or lazier) of the two players.

I think a lot of people also expected Pouliot to fill out a lot more than he did. He was drafted at 6'3, 195 LBS. He's currently listed at 199 LBS.
I guess that is one way of looking at it.. I agree with what Gainey said. It's a high risk, high reward trade... Let's hope it turns out...

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11-27-2009, 11:13 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Latendresse on a line with Koivu and Brunette today. Not surprising. Will have all the chances to succeed. We will see how it last.

As far as Pouliot is concerned, I still have confidence in him though, it might also turn out as the '09 version of Éric Chouinard. We also will see soon where it's headed.

Latendresse's game is at 2PM if you are interested....
2PM!! WTF!! Is it a holiday in the States today?

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11-27-2009, 11:20 AM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
True, some things can't be measured with numbers, but goal-scoring can. And I certainly ain't making it up.

http://www.behindthenet.ca/2008/new_...oi=&team=&pos=

Sure, he did it mostly against third lines and second pairing D-men and Cammalleri was doing it against top-flight opposition. (Although you do have to factor in Cammy had Iginla and Lats had Kostopoulos.) But that remains a staggeringly high number, especially for a 22-year-old player.

This amount of goal-scoring is valuable no matter how it happens. Trying to dismiss it because somehow goals don't count if it's Lats scoring them or if third-pairing D-men are on the ice is silly. If Lats is a fantastic scorer from the third line and nothing else, that's still a very useful quality. At 800k, it's not like he's keeping you from getting good second liners and it's not like you'd suffer from matching him up against the bottom of the opposition's roster.

It's difficult to understand why the coaches would not want for him to keep this up even if they decide he is not ready for a top-six role, it's puzzling how that little stat alone does not merit him at least some consideration for a scoring role or really any consideration at all from some people, and it really ought to make you wonder why his scoring has completely cratered this year after three years of constant improvement.

And besides, my real point here is that asking Latendresse to score more goals, by driving to the net or otherwise, was a little silly to begin with. Latendresse was simply not likely to score more goals unless he got more icetime, or started scoring them on the PP. Very few players squeeze as many goals as he does in the icetime he gets, third line or not. Trying to teach Latendresse how he can score goals at the NHL level was always a little silly. It should have been abundantly clear he already knew.

We used to have a fantastic third-line goal-scorer. Instead now we have Pouliot, who has lots of unrealized upside and not much else. Well, some decent goal-scoring stats in limited action this year, let's hope he keeps it up. But I think the Wild will be quite happy with Lats if they use him well.
I do see your point and agree with a lot of what you are saying.

With that said, Latendresse obviously wasn't happy in a third line role and obviously was hoping for/expecting a big raise next year.

I also think that a lot of his goal scoring last year was due to Lappy playing over his head and together were creating some offence for that line (I think Kosto's contribution is underrated here as well). I am not in any way downplaying Lat's contribution to this line because I think he was the main contributor to its success. But you could see this year, that with Lapierre not playng as well, Lats just wasn't producing.
I also think that Lats just didn't fit on the top two lines. He's a finesse player with a big body that's too slow to keep up with our top 6. He's was given opportunities and it wasn't working. (It could also be that he doesn't do as well against better D-men).

Also, our top 6 is in need of another winger. Pouliot has the potential to be that guy. We have enough players that can fill in quite nicely on the third line. They might not be as productive as Lats there, but I think that overall, they'll be more solid defensively and, most of all, the player replacing him will be happy to be playing there.

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11-27-2009, 11:27 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Belso View Post
I guess that is one way of looking at it.. I agree with what Gainey said. It's a high risk, high reward trade... Let's hope it turns out...
I don't see it as being that "high-risk".

I didn't see Lats turning into a top 6 player with us. He has been and likely would have remained a solid contributor on our 3rd line.
So, even if Pouliot turns out to be a complete bust, we lose a solid third liner/mediocre second liner (which we have an abundance of).

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11-27-2009, 11:32 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Belso View Post
I only now compared Latendresse's CHL numbers with those of Pouliot's and asked myself why Pouliot went so high in the draft.
Yeah, I wouldn't put too much stock in comparing stats from junior.

If that were the case, Simon Gamache and Corey Locke would have been top 5 picks.

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11-27-2009, 11:36 AM
  #60
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2PM!! WTF!! Is it a holiday in the States today?
4 day holiday for thanksgiving in the states,

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11-27-2009, 11:39 AM
  #61
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I hope Latendresse scores 50 goals this year.

And that Pouliot scores 51,

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11-27-2009, 12:25 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by natey2k4 View Post
In the new NHL, skating has a lot to do with drafting. Latendresse has been a poor skater forever (he's average now) where-as Pouliot is a good skater.

You also have to look at the fact that, for the most part, the Q is the most offensive league of the 3 CHL leagues, but for the most part, the least physical as well. The OHL is like a mix of the WHL and the Q.

Pouliot, while smaller, also put up quite a few more PIMs, which would suggest he's the grittier (or lazier) of the two players.

I think a lot of people also expected Pouliot to fill out a lot more than he did. He was drafted at 6'3, 195 LBS. He's currently listed at 199 LBS.
I'm not sure where you got that because that's one of the biggest myths on the QMJHL since forever. The OHL is the most offensive league in the CHL since the 1970s.

Pouliot doesn't even hit once per game, so I'm not sure how you could suggest he's more physical. If anything it's much more of a sign of undisciplne.

People compare Latendresse to Holmstrom and Knuble while their skating is just as bad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 View Post
I'm sorry man...you're putting in Latendresse's name in with Cammalleri and I just can't jive with that. I know you're big on numbers and I actually give alot of credence to alot of your arguments, but somethings can't be measured with numbers.

Latendresse scoring against #5-6 dmen vs. Latendresse scoring against teams top pairings is a whole different story. His game isn't well rounded enough to play against quality opposition, and that's why everytime he was given an opportunity he failed everytime, he can't keep up with the pace and doesn't contribute enough in other areas to ignore the lack of production

Come on MathMan...let's see how Cammalleri would do playing against #5-6 dmen and Latendresse playing against teams top pairing for one season.
http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/2008...player0360.php

there you can have who he scored against

you'll see they aren't slouches; Ballard, Phillips, Coburn and White among others

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Originally Posted by Habsfan18 View Post
Yeah, I wouldn't put too much stock in comparing stats from junior.

If that were the case, Simon Gamache and Corey Locke would have been top 5 picks.
Sure after scoring 62 points and 43 points respectively, I can only imagine everyone being all over those guys in the top 5 ... though that's what Pouliot was, a 65 point top 5 guy, but anyway, just shows how talented he is I guess ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by fufonzo View Post
I do see your point and agree with a lot of what you are saying.

With that said, Latendresse obviously wasn't happy in a third line role and obviously was hoping for/expecting a big raise next year.

I also think that a lot of his goal scoring last year was due to Lappy playing over his head and together were creating some offence for that line (I think Kosto's contribution is underrated here as well). I am not in any way downplaying Lat's contribution to this line because I think he was the main contributor to its success. But you could see this year, that with Lapierre not playng as well, Lats just wasn't producing.
Latendresse had no problem with his 3rd line role. What he didn't like was the 4th line role playing 4 minutes a night. He said he really liked Carbo. The only thing was that he would have liked to have a better shot last year with Koivu and Tanguay because when they played together they did great and felt like it would have been a pat on the back to get to play some more with them.


Last edited by Mathletic: 11-27-2009 at 12:38 PM.
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11-27-2009, 12:39 PM
  #63
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Sure after scoring 62 points and 43 points respectively, I can only imagine everyone being all over those guys in the top 5 ... though that's what Pouliot was, a 65 point top 5 guy, but anyway, just shows how talented he is I guess ...
Locke had 151 points in his draft year.

Gamache had 143 points in his draft year.

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11-27-2009, 12:42 PM
  #64
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Gawd...you guys and your infatuation with stats. Can anyone guess who's stats those are below?:

2001-02 WHL 63 9 9 18
2002-03 WHL 70 29 39 68
2003-04 WHL 49 28 47 75
2004-05 WHL 51 29 25 54

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11-27-2009, 12:42 PM
  #65
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Locke had 151 points in his draft year.

Gamache had 143 points in his draft year.
yeah, at 18 years old which were not their draft years

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11-27-2009, 12:43 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by LesCanadiens View Post
Gawd...you guys and your infatuation with stats. Can anyone guess who's stats those are below?:

2001-02 WHL 63 9 9 18
2002-03 WHL 70 29 39 68
2003-04 WHL 49 28 47 75
2004-05 WHL 51 29 25 54
by heart I'd say Getzlaf

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11-27-2009, 12:44 PM
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yeah, at 18 years old which were not their draft years
Well, it was still the year's they got drafted.

My point was simple, junior stats shouldn't mean too much when it comes to comparing players.

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11-27-2009, 12:44 PM
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by heart I'd say Getzlaf


Bingo dude!...and I know you're smart enough to understand the moral of the story, eh?

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11-27-2009, 12:44 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
True, some things can't be measured with numbers, but goal-scoring can. And I certainly ain't making it up.

http://www.behindthenet.ca/2008/new_...oi=&team=&pos=

Sure, he did it mostly against third lines and second pairing D-men and Cammalleri was doing it against top-flight opposition. (Although you do have to factor in Cammy had Iginla and Lats had Kostopoulos.) But that remains a staggeringly high number, especially for a 22-year-old player.

This amount of goal-scoring is valuable no matter how it happens. Trying to dismiss it because somehow goals don't count if it's Lats scoring them or if third-pairing D-men are on the ice is silly. If Lats is a fantastic scorer from the third line and nothing else, that's still a very useful quality. At 800k, it's not like he's keeping you from getting good second liners and it's not like you'd suffer from matching him up against the bottom of the opposition's roster.

It's difficult to understand why the coaches would not want for him to keep this up even if they decide he is not ready for a top-six role, it's puzzling how that little stat alone does not merit him at least some consideration for a scoring role or really any consideration at all from some people, and it really ought to make you wonder why his scoring has completely cratered this year after three years of constant improvement.

And besides, my real point here is that asking Latendresse to score more goals, by driving to the net or otherwise, was a little silly to begin with. Latendresse was simply not likely to score more goals unless he got more icetime, or started scoring them on the PP. Very few players squeeze as many goals as he does in the icetime he gets, third line or not. Trying to teach Latendresse how he can score goals at the NHL level was always a little silly. It should have been abundantly clear he already knew.

We used to have a fantastic third-line goal-scorer. Instead now we have Pouliot, who has lots of unrealized upside and not much else. Well, some decent goal-scoring stats in limited action this year, let's hope he keeps it up. But I think the Wild will be quite happy with Lats if they use him well.
I don't think he was trying to dismiss the value of Latendresse's goals because they were scored vs weaker lines.

I think his point was that you can't really compare Lats production on 3rd to a 40ish Goal Scorer on 1st.

Latendresse did score at a reasonable pace, and had he not been injured last year, he'd most likely have cracked the 20G mark.
I always defended him here and I'm sure he'll reach his potential in Minny if they give him all the chances. But he'll have to rush the net there as well.

There's a reason why Lats had success with players like Kosto or Lappy. They were faster than him and had no problem rushing the net. So, he could play a more perimeter role and be the 2nd guy to come into the corners. He didn't have to be the big body presence in front of the net on those lines because the other two were already rushing it.
If you look at his success on the top lines though, it came from him being in front of the net. He wasn't stickhandling through the zone like Koivu or setting himself up for a one timer around hash marks like Ryder use to.
His goals were in huge majority scored from close to the crease.
His stickhandling, playmaking and shooting skills are somewhat adequate, but not enough for him to hold the role of a playmaker or sniper. Not on the top lines as other players with those roles are better at it.
He doesn't have as good a shot as Cammy, A.Kost or Gionta, so can't expect him to be the sniper. You can even argue Gomez and Plek have nicer shots.
He doesn't have the playmaking skills that Gomez or Plekanec, and A.Kost also makes sick passes, so he won't be the guy carrying the puck.
His lack of speed makes it even harder for him to hold these roles.
So what would be his best use on top lines???....His body. Unfortunately, he either didn't want to do it, or simply couldn't understand what he was doing wrong.

I understand that his role in the juniors was different. But there's a huge number of players that change roles from juniors to nhl.
That's something he failed to acknowledged. It's normal for a guy his size with his talent to dominate the Q as a scorer. But in the NHL, it's another story.

It's not because you scored 15G as a 3rd liner that you can score 20-30G on the 1st line. His role will change from 3rd to 1st. He didn't seem to understand that.
You're not going to score 20-30G on the first line the same way you did so on 3rd. Otherwise, Lappy could be there too.

The Day Lats understands how he needs to play to perform on top6, will be the Day he'll be very successful.

I might be wrong, but I'd bet my life savings on being right.


Last edited by Kriss E: 11-27-2009 at 12:59 PM.
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Old
11-27-2009, 12:46 PM
  #70
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Bingo dude!...and I know you're smart enough to understand the moral of the story, eh?
no not really because from the moment that Latendresse scores goals both in Juniors and in the NHL in the roles he's asked to play, I don't get why another player's stats in juniors would dismiss the job Latendresse has done in the NHL.

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11-27-2009, 12:47 PM
  #71
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I don't think he was trying to dismiss the value of Latendresse's goals because they were scored vs weaker lines.

I think his point was that you can't really compare Lats production on 3rd to a 40ish Goal Scorer on 1st.

Latendresse did score at a reasonable pace, and had he not been injured last year, he'd most likely have cracked the 20G mark.
I always defended him here and I'm sure he'll reach his potential in Minny if they give him all the chances. But he'll have to rush the net there as well.

There's a reason why Lats had success with players like Kosto or Lappy. They were faster than him and had no problem rushing the net. So, he could play a more perimeter and be the 2nd guy to come into the corners. He didn't have to be the big body presence in front of the net on those lines because the other two were already rushing it.
If you look at his success on the top lines though, it came from him being in front of the net. He wasn't stickhandling through the zone or setting himself up for a one timer around hash marks.
His goals were in huge majority scored from close to the crease.
His stickhandling, playmaking and shooting skills are somewhat adequate, but not enough for him to hold the role of a playmaker or sniper. Not on the top lines as other players with those roles are better at it.
He doesn't have as good a shot as Cammy, A.Kost or Gionta, so can't expect him to be the sniper. You can even argue Gomez and Plek have nicer shots.
He doesn't have the playmaking skills that Gomez or Plekanec, and A.Kost also makes sick passes, so he won't be the guy carrying the puck.
His lack of speed makes it even harder for him to hold these roles.
So what would be his best use on top lines???....His body. Unfortunately, he either didn't want to do it, or simply couldn't understand what he was doing wrong.

I understand that his role in the juniors was different. But there's a huge number of players that change roles from juniors to nhl.
That's something he failed to acknowledged. It's normal for a guy his size with his talent to dominate the Q as a scorer. But in the NHL, it's another story.

It's not because you scored 15G as a 3rd liner that you can score 20-30G on the 1st line. His role will change from 3rd to 1st. He didn't seem to understand that.
You're not going to score 20-30G on the first line the same way you did so on 3rd. Otherwise, Lappy could be there too.

The Day Lats understands how he needs to play to perform on top6, will be the Day he'll be very successful.

I might be wrong, but I'd bet my life savings on being right.
I don't want your 5 bucks

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11-27-2009, 12:47 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Habsfan18 View Post
Well, it was still the year's they got drafted.

My point was simple, junior stats shouldn't mean too much when it comes to comparing players.
I disagree, but what do I know. Like I said in the other post, your level of understanding of the game is beyond mine, so it's not like I could comprehend what goes on in your mind.

... unless the moral of the story is that Getzlaf is a playmaker and in the 2 years he didn't put up many points he played with guys who couldn't score much. Playmakers are much more reliant on having fitting teammates than goal scorers are ...


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11-27-2009, 12:52 PM
  #73
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In 3 years Lats will be a 40 goal scorer............... playing for the Graz 99ers in the Austrian Hockey League.

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11-27-2009, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
True, some things can't be measured with numbers, but goal-scoring can. And I certainly ain't making it up.

http://www.behindthenet.ca/2008/new_...oi=&team=&pos=

Sure, he did it mostly against third lines and second pairing D-men and Cammalleri was doing it against top-flight opposition. (Although you do have to factor in Cammy had Iginla and Lats had Kostopoulos.) But that remains a staggeringly high number, especially for a 22-year-old player.

This amount of goal-scoring is valuable no matter how it happens. Trying to dismiss it because somehow goals don't count if it's Lats scoring them or if third-pairing D-men are on the ice is silly. If Lats is a fantastic scorer from the third line and nothing else, that's still a very useful quality. At 800k, it's not like he's keeping you from getting good second liners and it's not like you'd suffer from matching him up against the bottom of the opposition's roster.

It's difficult to understand why the coaches would not want for him to keep this up even if they decide he is not ready for a top-six role, it's puzzling how that little stat alone does not merit him at least some consideration for a scoring role or really any consideration at all from some people, and it really ought to make you wonder why his scoring has completely cratered this year after three years of constant improvement.

And besides, my real point here is that asking Latendresse to score more goals, by driving to the net or otherwise, was a little silly to begin with. Latendresse was simply not likely to score more goals unless he got more icetime, or started scoring them on the PP. Very few players squeeze as many goals as he does in the icetime he gets, third line or not. Trying to teach Latendresse how he can score goals at the NHL level was always a little silly. It should have been abundantly clear he already knew.

We used to have a fantastic third-line goal-scorer. Instead now we have Pouliot, who has lots of unrealized upside and not much else. Well, some decent goal-scoring stats in limited action this year, let's hope he keeps it up. But I think the Wild will be quite happy with Lats if they use him well.
That's great Mathman...and i'm not being facetious either.

But I think you're doing just like Guillaume does and you're making excuses for him....as I mentionned, if Guillaume Latendresse never could establish himself as a top 6 forward who gets regular PP time, that's his own fault. The coaching staff needed a player of his skills and he failed everytime he was given an opportunity and the only time he seemed comfortable, was when he played against inferior competition.

In the Western Conference where skating and involvement are even more prevelant, if Guillaume does not change his work habits, he'll struggle even more.

I don't know why you bring up Latendresse goal scoring rates...again, i've never questionned his ability to put the puck in the net, that's not what i'm debating here...but it's in lats hands if he wants to remain a 10-15 goal scorer, or if he wants to become a 30-35 goal scorer like I think he CAN be. He has an attitude that he should be given this role, instead of earning it...and I think that empowerment came from the media/fans who turned him into a superstar before he accomplished anything

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11-27-2009, 12:53 PM
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LesCanadiens
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathletic View Post
no not really because from the moment that Latendresse scores goals both in Juniors and in the NHL in the roles he's asked to play, I don't get why another player's stats in juniors would dismiss the job Latendresse has done in the NHL.
I guess you didn't understand the moral of the story

It was more about Pouliots stats than Lats'. You see, I clearly recall in this very same hockey forum, a lot of people not overly excited about Getzlaf back at the draft, due to his clearly not world-beating numbers in junior. The consensus was, if he barely clings to ppg in junior, what's he going to do in the NHL? But I guess that's what happens when people go by stats and stats alone....the scouts that actually WATCHED Getzlaf play, saw past the numbers and picked up on the entire picture.

Pouliot, from the scouting reports I read, was clearly in the same boat. And Lats, judging from his junior numbers -> NHL efforts, would so far backup the scouts' assessment of him. Not to say that is always the way it works out, we've seen 7th rounders become stars, and top-5 picks become busts.....but I don't think it has much to do with their stats prior to being pro's.

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