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#24: Flyers at Thrashers - November 28, 2009 - 7:00 PM (ET)

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11-29-2009, 09:45 AM
  #576
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Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
I have noted the roster turnover multiple times. It might even be a term taken from one of my posts. It's something I've discussed face-to-face with people ad nauseum. I have never wavered from the fact that we're not going to win a Stanley Cup with him as a coach. I've elaborated multiple times, that the only change left to make for this team, is to change the coach. I noted how Paul Holmgren blasted Carter and Richards before and 8-5 win, one night before Stevens said it was OK we lost to Ottawa and had the audacity to ask what the score of other games were. None of these thoughts should be news to a single person here, unless they haven't been paying attention the last 3 years.

However, he's attempted the in-game adjustments. He's mixed and matched the lines, both in-game and in between games. He's messed around with the goaltending by putting in Boucher at the appropriate time judging by Boucher's response recently. He put Pronger with Carle, something a lot of people freaked out over that Carle was going to get so much more time than he showed he deserved last year. He's been doing some of the things accused that he has not been doing.

Sometimes the coach does what he can do within a game, and the finger needs to be pointed at the players in this case.

Or even the fact that they just got beat. The Thrashers are good, they're not the team of old. They're a team with good players, with the ability to beat good teams, and not be relying on Ilya Kovalchuk to win games single-handedly.
I don't see what your point is here at all. The fact that he's tried jumbling the lines up (wow!) doesn't exactly make him a good coach, every coach does that when times are tough. As for the goaltending, he horribly overplayed Emery for the first 20-odd games of the season when Emery had played 18 games and Bouch had 1.

I mean, remember when Hitch played Nitty 17 games in a row or whatever it was and Nitty never reached that level again. Now Emery is looking burned out and giving up a couple weak goals every game, so I'm not giving him credit for anything relating to goaltending right now.

This team had a run of 6-7 games when they played strong in both ends, were generating a consistent forecheck, and to be frank, looked like a Cup contender. But in the other 17-18 games of the year, this team has looked lackluster at best. There were times yesterday when I swore we were skating in slow motion.

Of course there are the people that will blame the players, but look at who we have on the roster. Pronger carried EDM singlehandedly to the Finals and then won a Cup the next year with another dominating performance. Richards has been a great leader at every level he's played it. Timonen was Nashville's captain. Briere was Buffalo's captain. Gagne has worn the A forever and always works hard.

At some point, I think people need to accept that it isn't the players and it hasn't been the players for a long time. I mean, look at the Fire Stevens thread, pretty much all of us were willing to give him a second chance as long as we kept playing up-tempo, high-pressure hockey. But we've lapsed back into John Stevens hockey, we're currently 3 points ahead of Florida and out of a playoff spot and there isn't much hope.

We all know what the problem is, no reason to change anything else until the big problem is solved.

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11-29-2009, 10:24 AM
  #577
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
I don't see what your point is here at all. The fact that he's tried jumbling the lines up (wow!) doesn't exactly make him a good coach, every coach does that when times are tough. As for the goaltending, he horribly overplayed Emery for the first 20-odd games of the season when Emery had played 18 games and Bouch had 1.
So every coach does it? Every team who loses a game is the coach's fault then? Emery played just fine up until the road trip.


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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
I mean, remember when Hitch played Nitty 17 games in a row or whatever it was and Nitty never reached that level again. Now Emery is looking burned out and giving up a couple weak goals every game, so I'm not giving him credit for anything relating to goaltending right now.

We were also getting all kinds of 5- and 6-day breaks this year, just like 2 years ago when Biron had so many starts at the start of the 07-08 season. He wasn't exactly being overworked by playing every 3rd day. When the schedule picked up last week, Boucher started getting starts, as he should have.

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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
This team had a run of 6-7 games when they played strong in both ends, were generating a consistent forecheck, and to be frank, looked like a Cup contender. But in the other 17-18 games of the year, this team has looked lackluster at best. There were times yesterday when I swore we were skating in slow motion.
They carried the majority of the play last night. It's not like they didn't show up. People were happy with the way they played in the 1st period. They gave up 3 shots a piece in the 1st and 3rd period at least, and the 2nd was more even. They didn't go out and go through the motions. They didn't execute.

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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Of course there are the people that will blame the players, but look at who we have on the roster. Pronger carried EDM singlehandedly to the Finals and then won a Cup the next year with another dominating performance. Richards has been a great leader at every level he's played it. Timonen was Nashville's captain. Briere was Buffalo's captain. Gagne has worn the A forever and always works hard.
Some of that is in the past. I'm worried about this season, as anything less than winning the Stanley Cup, the season is a complete fail. I know none of those guys care about what happened 3-4-6-7 years ago.

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At some point, I think people need to accept that it isn't the players and it hasn't been the players for a long time. I mean, look at the Fire Stevens thread, pretty much all of us were willing to give him a second chance as long as we kept playing up-tempo, high-pressure hockey. But we've lapsed back into John Stevens hockey, we're currently 3 points ahead of Florida and out of a playoff spot and there isn't much hope.

We all know what the problem is, no reason to change anything else until the big problem is solved.
What? NO ONE blames the players. EVER. Someone takes a run at the responsibility of the players for 1 game, and it's the most absurd thing anyone's ever heard.

Like I said, if the 23 players are waiting for the coaching staff to fix all the problems, and not being held responsible themselves, then our lackluster coach is the least of our worries, and we obviously don't have the players who have the testicular fortitude to take the team where it needs to go. You could go find Scotty Bowman to coach this team, they won't go anywhere if this is the attitude.

I am full out 100% no excuses this year. The fact that every single loss is because of the coaching - is a cop out excuse, and is not acceptable. We brought in players who will make other players responsible and accountable, and hopefully that's happening.

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11-29-2009, 10:32 AM
  #578
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Pronger carried EDM singlehandedly to the Finals and then won a Cup the next year with another dominating performance.
He's been good, but not without his mistakes. Boucher bailed him out of another dreadful giveaweay last night. And Pronger's blast from the point has been inaccurate lately.

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Richards has been a great leader at every level he's played at.
Except for the NHL, you mean. Jury is out.

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Timonen was Nashville's captain.
Fine, fine player - who is clearly injured right now (he is routinely getting beaten to loose pucks; I fear a groin).

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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Briere was Buffalo's captain.
Briere has missed the last three games.

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Gagne has worn the A forever and always works hard.
What does Gagne have to do with anything in this awful stretch?

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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Of course there are the people that will blame the players, but look at who we have on the roster.
You have 15 more to go.

Carter - underperfoming, and it'd be fair to put that on coaching.

Pyorala - a fourth line player anywhere else in the Division, playing Flyers powerplay due to injury woes

Carcillo - a non-factor

Cote - dreadul

Hartnell - works hard, but let's face it: as dumb as a stump, and takes the ill-timed penalties to prove it

Carle - has risen well this year

Coburn - paired with Timonen this year, predicted here to cure all ills, still inconsistent and offensively absent of late

Parent and Bartulis - playing like a pairing with under 100 NHL games experience

Laperriere - has been fine

Goaltending - has been pedestrian

Powe, Gagne, Betts - effective players, all - OUT

Kalisnki, Nodl, Ross - AHL players, all - IN

JVR - looks fine to me

Giroux - struggling a bit, but looks okay

----

Hardly a Cup caliber roster. I think they have played well in a few of these losses, and deserved better. But it is true they looked dull at times and it is fair to point at coaching for that.

At the same time, the Richards and Carter worship needs to be justified now. We all said this stretch would test their mettle, that they'd need to come up big.

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11-29-2009, 10:38 AM
  #579
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Originally Posted by Bennysflyers16 View Post
Stevens says we just got to score more,,, **** he is smart, I never would of thought that
Assuming that is at the post game press conference, you act like he wasn't going to say that. Of course he has to feed the press with answers they want to hear.

And before you say I'm a Stevens supporter, he's on the cutting board for me. 2 or 3 more losses and I say he has to go, this team's play of late is worse than the 10 game losses they've had before, and this can really be going in a bad direction.

It's really one of the only things they need to get going(offense). So you can say "no **** sherlock" but he's right. This team's setup was based around par goaltending and some decent defense, and whatever shortcoming come from that would be made up for with a stellar offense and scoring. Good strategy, but that only goes so far if you're not scoring.

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11-29-2009, 10:43 AM
  #580
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
Unfortunately, our esteemed GM, forced the team in that position. The options are few. What happens if it turns out the coach wasn't actually the problem? Then what? You can trade Carter and Coburn to reload the weapons, and prove that no one player is above anything, but you don't have many tradeable assets. You can't trade Pronger, Richards, Briere, Hartnell, Timonen. Giroux and JVR aren't going anywhere. You don't have draft picks. Not many prospects who we can afford to trade. Beyond that you're into bottom 6 forwards and your 3rd pair defensemen...not exactly forceful impact players. Although it seems that Blair Betts is an impact player, we don't win without him.

They won't miss the playoffs though.
That paints a pretty bleak picture. We won't trade anybody that other teams would want, and we have no draft picks either. Plus we have a huge question mark in goal. And no Cap room. Sound like we're stuck...

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11-29-2009, 10:48 AM
  #581
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That paints a pretty bleak picture. We won't trade anybody that other teams would want, and we have no draft picks either. Plus we have a huge question mark in goal. And no Cap room. Sound like we're stuck...
Everybody said it 2 years ago here. Only a matter of time before it caught up...

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11-29-2009, 10:48 AM
  #582
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That paints a pretty bleak picture. We won't trade anybody that other teams would want, and we have no draft picks either. Plus we have a huge question mark in goal. And no Cap room. Sound like we're stuck...
At this point the only tradable asset is Matt Carle and I'm sure as hell against doing that.

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11-29-2009, 11:20 AM
  #583
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I'd like to see Ed Snider start calling the team out, and mentioning that everyone's on the chopping block and no one is safe from trade (outside of the obvious NMC). Maybe that can get the team going.

Go figure, Briere has a NMC and he's been playing like he's on the chopping block all season, minus the suspension and bouts of flu.

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11-29-2009, 11:22 AM
  #584
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I'd like to see Ed Snider start calling the team out, and mentioning that everyone's on the chopping block and no one is safe from trade (outside of the obvious NMC). Maybe that can get the team going.
That probably happens when Stevens is fired. Because last time he did that, Hitchcock ended up being fired a week later.

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11-29-2009, 11:39 AM
  #585
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I don't know if this was mentioned but CSN notes that "sources" claim Briere's groin is an issue (maybe in addition to the flu).

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11-29-2009, 11:41 AM
  #586
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I don't know if this was mentioned but CSN notes that "sources" claim Briere's groin is an issue (maybe in addition to the flu).
here we go again

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11-29-2009, 11:42 AM
  #587
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Originally Posted by MiamiScreamingEagles View Post
I don't know if this was mentioned but CSN notes that "sources" claim Briere's groin is an issue (maybe in addition to the flu).
This was from yesterday:

DNFlyers

So no Briere tonight with the flu, but a Flyers source is also telling me that he is complaining about his groin again. Interesting. about 19 hours ago from web

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11-29-2009, 11:49 AM
  #588
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Do we have a medical staff? My lord in heaven, Briere had a groin problem 1 damn time in 2000 and has now had groin problems for 13 months with us, just fire their *****.

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11-29-2009, 11:56 AM
  #589
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
So every coach does it? Every team who loses a game is the coach's fault then? Emery played just fine up until the road trip.





We were also getting all kinds of 5- and 6-day breaks this year, just like 2 years ago when Biron had so many starts at the start of the 07-08 season. He wasn't exactly being overworked by playing every 3rd day. When the schedule picked up last week, Boucher started getting starts, as he should have.



They carried the majority of the play last night. It's not like they didn't show up. People were happy with the way they played in the 1st period. They gave up 3 shots a piece in the 1st and 3rd period at least, and the 2nd was more even. They didn't go out and go through the motions. They didn't execute.



Some of that is in the past. I'm worried about this season, as anything less than winning the Stanley Cup, the season is a complete fail. I know none of those guys care about what happened 3-4-6-7 years ago.



What? NO ONE blames the players. EVER. Someone takes a run at the responsibility of the players for 1 game, and it's the most absurd thing anyone's ever heard.

Like I said, if the 23 players are waiting for the coaching staff to fix all the problems, and not being held responsible themselves, then our lackluster coach is the least of our worries, and we obviously don't have the players who have the testicular fortitude to take the team where it needs to go. You could go find Scotty Bowman to coach this team, they won't go anywhere if this is the attitude.

I am full out 100% no excuses this year. The fact that every single loss is because of the coaching - is a cop out excuse, and is not acceptable. We brought in players who will make other players responsible and accountable, and hopefully that's happening.
Whether its the coaches fault or not, would you not agree that at this point theres little reason to think it would hurt the team by trying something new? Is there really anything to lose? This team has never shown under Stevens that it can be a dominate team that can contend for a cup for a significant period of time. The players have changed enough times, the roster has "improved" many times, and Stevens is the lone variable. How much failure are you willing to put up with before we change the only thing left to be changed?

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11-29-2009, 12:01 PM
  #590
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
This was from yesterday:

DNFlyers

So no Briere tonight with the flu, but a Flyers source is also telling me that he is complaining about his groin again. Interesting. about 19 hours ago from web
There was also a tweet from @philabright this morning that "Pronger calls out Flyers: We had too many passengers (Saturday). We need everyone on he same page for 60 minutes for us to win."

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11-29-2009, 12:06 PM
  #591
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There was also a tweet from @philabright this morning that "Pronger calls out Flyers: We had too many passengers (Saturday). We need everyone on he same page for 60 minutes for us to win."
I heard his interview after the Buffalo game and he said comparable things but also specifying "we need to be a strong third period team." His quote from post-game last night is:

http://www.csnphilly.com/pages/landi...491&feedID=695

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“We’re playing well enough to keep it close, but we’re not getting it to the finish line,” Chris Pronger said. “Tonight, we had too many passengers. We need everyone on the same page for 60 minutes for us to win. Right now, that is costing us games. I’m sure down the road, these points are going to be important.

“We need to get our heads screwed on straight real fast and use these three-to-four days to get sharp, tighten up some areas, and get everyone on the same page. You don’t want to fall too far behind the pack. You want to be continually improving and not taking two steps backward and one forward.”
Meanwhile, Richards said (and the "gritty around the net" needs to be emphasized):

Quote:
“We had a lot of good chances we just have to score and bear down,” said Flyers captain Mike Richards. “We’ve got to get gritty around the net, find loose pucks and get back to getting some ugly goals around the net.”

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11-29-2009, 12:34 PM
  #592
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Whether its the coaches fault or not, would you not agree that at this point theres little reason to think it would hurt the team by trying something new? Is there really anything to lose? This team has never shown under Stevens that it can be a dominate team that can contend for a cup for a significant period of time. The players have changed enough times, the roster has "improved" many times, and Stevens is the lone variable. How much failure are you willing to put up with before we change the only thing left to be changed?
I think you need to do a search on my posts and see what I've said about Stevens in the past before you make assumptions that I don't blame the coach. The point is that the players on here catch very little flak. The fact that it's even part of the discussion make it apparent how far the players on the team are above the consequences of criticism. They're absolved of everything because the coach doesn't know how to properly use and motivate players. That may be something I'd expect from a team who would be happy to make the playoffs, but not us. This organization holds itself to a higher standard than to make everything that doesn't happen the coach's fault.

On a championship team, that's not good enough. I want my players rising above that and taking some of these responsibilities upon themselves, and not leaving it at the feet of the coach to do their homework.

Stevens has gotten his warranted criticism on the blogosphere, in the press/media, etc. Time for the players to face the same music. If they're championship caliber, they'll answer the challenge and not blame the coach for every single loss.

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11-29-2009, 12:49 PM
  #593
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Oh, it's still a concern.
Alright, least of our concerns right now.

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11-29-2009, 01:28 PM
  #594
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At this point the only tradable asset is Matt Carle and I'm sure as hell against doing that.
God that would suck. He has finally gotten paired with somebody who can let him play like he is meant to.

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11-29-2009, 01:45 PM
  #595
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Do we have a medical staff? My lord in heaven, Briere had a groin problem 1 damn time in 2000 and has now had groin problems for 13 months with us, just fire their *****.
It's called a player getting older...and it seems to be one of those things that when you get a bad groin injury once, it's always a bit weaker. Lot of guys seem to end up with chronic groin problems after the first one.

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11-29-2009, 02:09 PM
  #596
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It's called a player getting older...and it seems to be one of those things that when you get a bad groin injury once, it's always a bit weaker. Lot of guys seem to end up with chronic groin problems after the first one.
I remember the first year back from the lockout there were groin problems galore league wide because the game sped up. This "faster" game is going to take a great toll on players' bodies. That, and groin problems are ones that have a tendency to linger.

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11-29-2009, 02:14 PM
  #597
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I remember the first year back from the lockout there were groin problems galore league wide because the game sped up. This "faster" game is going to take a great toll on players' bodies. That, and groin problems are ones that have a tendency to linger.
Briere has also had hernia problems, which might contribute. But I mean really, when you get into your thirties and are playing at this level, it's when your body starts to breakdown a bit.

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11-29-2009, 02:18 PM
  #598
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It's called a player getting older...and it seems to be one of those things that when you get a bad groin injury once, it's always a bit weaker. Lot of guys seem to end up with chronic groin problems after the first one.
I still wouldn't trust this medical staff as far as I could throw them. Look at how long it took them to diagnose Gagne's hip/groin problem before he got it operated on? Speaking about Gagne, look at his lost year with the concussion. They diagnosed it as Dehydration instead of a concussion. Then we have the Briere fiasco of last year. Let's also talk about how they handled Lindros or how they shot up both of Danny Markov's feet with pain killers so that he could play with broken bones in his feet in the playoffs. The medical staff are attrocious. I wouldn't even call them butchers because to be a butcher requires a fine skill. They're monsters and they should have been fired after misdiagnosing a concussion as dehydration.

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11-29-2009, 03:14 PM
  #599
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too bad, briere has probably been the MVP of the forwards this season.

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11-29-2009, 03:59 PM
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Yet another loss

Look at the standings, we're falling from the sky. Down to 9th, not even a playoff team right now. How's this gonna end
We should probably put in OKT, eh? He'll fight some meaningless third line guy and we'll win 10-1.

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Meanwhile, Richards said (and the "gritty around the net" needs to be emphasized):
Richards has been taking the puck hard to the net the last few games and trying to get those ugly goals. But I guess since he's a bad leader what he does and what he says doesn't matter.

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