HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > Fantasy Hockey Talk > All Time Draft
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
All Time Draft Fantasy league where players of the past and present meet.

ATD 12 Bob Cole Quater-Finals: 4 Cairo Desert Dogs vs. 5 Syracuse Bulldogs

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
11-29-2009, 04:12 AM
  #126
seventieslord
Moderator
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 24,980
vCash: 500
For anyone who doubted whether the first rounds should be 3-4 days long instead of the originally planned one, I present to you Exhibit A - This series. Good work, guys.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafs Forever View Post

And I agains challenge you to show what were the average drop offs in scoring rates for defenceman from regular season to playoffs for defenceman in these era's. Or even the average PPG of these guys era's for defencweman in the regular and playoff season. These numbers mean nothing without proper context.
This is true, in Goodfellow's time, playoff scoring rates dropped off considerably more than at other times in history (in terms of playoff gpg as a percentage of regular season GPG) So all in all, I would say these two are about equal in terms of playoff offensive strength. I'd be much more concerned with how they defended, though.

But then......

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafs Forever View Post
Oh yes, this old arguement.

Well let me again note, those PPG numbers are meaningless until you are prepared to put them into context. If goodfellow's era had a much bigger drop off in playoff scoring they do lie. (which appears like it could be the case based on the numbers you needed to place high in those years)

I was posting all of his playoff accomplishments. Do those scoring finishes as a forward have the same value playing defence? Know, but as again it was a part of his game that translated, I think it does have some value.

It was the era Goodfellow played in. As evident, if he could get those placements with those totals, the defenceman were scoring very little in the playoffs simply due to era. Is the ATD not about relativity?

In the 2001-02 playoff, Chara scored an incredible 1 point in 10 games. Nice try trying to make Chara seem like he never had playoffs as bad offensively as that one for Goodfellow.

But, like I did with Leduc, I'll try and play these rules somewhat.

From the period of 1936,-1941, Goodfellow placed about 6th in playoff defenceman point scoring (I believe I included the multi-position guys- point out who I didn't feature if I did not). Guys that came ahead were Hollet, Pratt, Clapper, Shore, Horner I believe.

From the period of 2002-2009, Chara placed about 17th in defenceman playoff points scoring. Guys that came ahead, from closest to farthest? Craig Rivet, Bryan MCCabe, Chris Chelios, Mattias Ohlund, Brad STuart, Dan Boyle, Niklas Kronwall, Rob Blake, Brian Campbell, Sergei Zubov, Wade Redden, Sergei Gonchar, Scott Niedermayer, Brian Rafalski, Chris Pronger, Niklas Lidstrom.
No, man, you're just wrong on this. This is cheap. You did it to me in the MLD finals, you tried to do it in the ATD finals at the leafs boards, and you're doing it now. CF was absolutely right to call you on this.

You could have Eddie Gerard and say he was 2nd in playoff points by defensemen in1920, with 1.

You could have Georges Boucher and say he was 1st in playoff points by defensemen in 1923 and 1924... with 1!

Sylvio Mantha was 2nd in 1925 playoff points.... with 1!

For the next four years no defenseman had more than 2 playoff points. Anyone who had 1, could be considered tied for 3rd or 4th.

After that, some reasonable and usable leaderboards start to form, but even in 1935, you have a five-way tie for 2nd... with one point each. Cy Wentworth scored half of all points scored by defenseman that year in the playoffs.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafs Forever;22361134[B
Jimmy Peters vs Al Secord[/B]

Offensively, unsure. Secord has a 6th in goals vs an 8th for Peers, both their only top-10. I'd have to see what the rest of Secor'd finishes in the top-20 werel ike
to make a call. Interesinyl though, in that season with the 6th in goals, Secord didn't seem to be playing his game. A quote from AL Secord on his bio by Joe Pelletier:
Secord definitely has an offensive edge. He topped 40 goals 3 times.

seventieslord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-29-2009, 04:41 AM
  #127
Dreakmur
Registered User
 
Dreakmur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Orillia, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,991
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
No, man, you're just wrong on this. This is cheap. You did it to me in the MLD finals, you tried to do it in the ATD finals at the leafs boards, and you're doing it now. CF was absolutely right to call you on this.

You could have Eddie Gerard and say he was 2nd in playoff points by defensemen in1920, with 1.

You could have Georges Boucher and say he was 1st in playoff points by defensemen in 1923 and 1924... with 1!

Sylvio Mantha was 2nd in 1925 playoff points.... with 1!

For the next four years no defenseman had more than 2 playoff points. Anyone who had 1, could be considered tied for 3rd or 4th.

After that, some reasonable and usable leaderboards start to form, but even in 1935, you have a five-way tie for 2nd... with one point each. Cy Wentworth scored half of all points scored by defenseman that year in the playoffs.
If it's for 9th or 10th, I can see your point.

For top-5, there should be no argument. If the leaders had 1 point, they were still the leaders. Should we ignore all low point totals? Eddie Gerard only put up 16 points during the season - do we ignore that?

Dreakmur is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
11-29-2009, 04:52 AM
  #128
seventieslord
Moderator
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 24,980
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
If it's for 9th or 10th, I can see your point.

For top-5, there should be no argument. If the leaders had 1 point, they were still the leaders. Should we ignore all low point totals? Eddie Gerard only put up 16 points during the season - do we ignore that?
You don't have to completely ignore it, but it's hugely insignificant. I like to gather up everything worth mentioning when listing accomplishments, and I would not mention it.

seventieslord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-29-2009, 04:54 AM
  #129
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 41,020
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
If it's for 9th or 10th, I can see your point.

For top-5, there should be no argument. If the leaders had 1 point, they were still the leaders. Should we ignore all low point totals? Eddie Gerard only put up 16 points during the season - do we ignore that?
No, I'm sorry. 1 single point - he could have had a lucky bounce off the defenseman's ass into the goal. It does't say anything without context.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
11-29-2009, 05:08 AM
  #130
Dreakmur
Registered User
 
Dreakmur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Orillia, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,991
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
No, I'm sorry. 1 single point - he could have had a lucky bounce off the defenseman's ass into the goal. It does't say anything without context.
Just like any top-10 or top-20, if a player only accomplishes it once, you can question it.

If a player consistently places among to top-10 or top-20, regardless of the point total, it proves it isn't a fluke.

Dreakmur is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
11-29-2009, 12:41 PM
  #131
Leafs Forever
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,792
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
For anyone who doubted whether the first rounds should be 3-4 days long instead of the originally planned one, I present to you Exhibit A - This series. Good work, guys.



This is true, in Goodfellow's time, playoff scoring rates dropped off considerably more than at other times in history (in terms of playoff gpg as a percentage of regular season GPG) So all in all, I would say these two are about equal in terms of playoff offensive strength. I'd be much more concerned with how they defended, though.

But then......



No, man, you're just wrong on this. This is cheap. You did it to me in the MLD finals, you tried to do it in the ATD finals at the leafs boards, and you're doing it now. CF was absolutely right to call you on this.

You could have Eddie Gerard and say he was 2nd in playoff points by defensemen in1920, with 1.

You could have Georges Boucher and say he was 1st in playoff points by defensemen in 1923 and 1924... with 1!

Sylvio Mantha was 2nd in 1925 playoff points.... with 1!

For the next four years no defenseman had more than 2 playoff points. Anyone who had 1, could be considered tied for 3rd or 4th.

After that, some reasonable and usable leaderboards start to form, but even in 1935, you have a five-way tie for 2nd... with one point each. Cy Wentworth scored half of all points scored by defenseman that year in the playoffs.
I've been somewhat moved, but not completely for similar reasons to Dreak, off the position. Hence why I used the powerplay feature on hockeyreference.com for Leduc to show he was great over a longer stretch. I made the Goodfellow bio before then, and forgot about how he got his scoring replacements; hence why I again brought in the powerplay feature to evaluate over a longer stretch. I think showing both and explaining what finishes were like in that era is a fair compromise.

Leafs Forever is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:42 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.