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Gainey trying to make another splash - trade talk!

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Old
11-30-2009, 08:34 AM
  #101
odishabs
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Nathan Horton is someone i NEED to see in a habs uni.

Horton

for

Gorges, Weber, 1st round pick


Andrei - Pleks - Cammy
Horton - Gomer - Gio
Patches - Metro - Sergei
Pouliot - Lappy - Moen

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Old
11-30-2009, 08:36 AM
  #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by odishabs View Post
Nathan Horton is someone i NEED to see in a habs uni.

Horton

for

Gorges, Weber, 1st round pick


Andrei - Pleks - Cammy
Horton - Gomer - Gio
Patches - Metro - Sergei
Pouliot - Lappy - Moen
1) Florida isn't giving up a top 6 forwarrd without getting some offense back.

2) That 1st rounder isn't going anywhere until we're far, far away from the cellar.

3) Causes multiple cap headaches.

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Old
11-30-2009, 08:37 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
Ek has this all backwards. Why would Carolina be giving draft picks and why would Montreal want ANOTHER all left handed centre in Boychuck when plex is a proven (more so then Boychuck) centre who's having a career year and wants to resign in Montreal?

Makes no sense as per usual. It's insulting that he doesn't even put any thought into what he's saying.
Actually if you think of it logically, it does make sense- if. If Gainey has a good feeling that he will not be able to re-sign Plekanec then he should seriously think of dealing him. This team isn't making a cup run and we cannot afford to lose him for nothing.

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Old
11-30-2009, 08:46 AM
  #104
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Does the first realy have to be there? I mean Horton is finaly playing the ways he should so now they trade him? He has impressive size, skills and if Florida wanted to trade him, it would to be cause of money or his request.
I like Gorges and I would say he stays but for Horton......Weber is a usefull card to have for the salary cap flex.
So let's just say that he requested a trade and I'm the GM, I pick up the phone and say.

Chipchura-Weber-A first round pick

He laughs and them I ask what on his mind
He says the Kostitsyn Brothers
I laugh but realy, do I realy laugh?

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11-30-2009, 09:20 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by otto bond View Post
Does the first realy have to be there? I mean Horton is finaly playing the ways he should so now they trade him? He has impressive size, skills and if Florida wanted to trade him, it would to be cause of money or his request.
I like Gorges and I would say he stays but for Horton......Weber is a usefull card to have for the salary cap flex.
So let's just say that he requested a trade and I'm the GM, I pick up the phone and say.

Chipchura-Weber-A first round pick

He laughs and them I ask what on his mind
He says the Kostitsyn Brothers
I laugh but realy, do I realy laugh?
There's no way the Florida GM would counter with the Kostitysn's for Horton. If it were that easy, they'd have been wearing Panther uniforms a long time ago.

Why exactly you would "laugh" if they countered with that is entirely unclear.

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Old
11-30-2009, 09:50 AM
  #106
otto bond
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Originally Posted by FerrisRox View Post
There's no way the Florida GM would counter with the Kostitysn's for Horton. If it were that easy, they'd have been wearing Panther uniforms a long time ago.

Why exactly you would "laugh" if they countered with that is entirely unclear.
You may under value our players. From what I saw, Horton talent wise and plays wise is similor to Andrei. Sergei has great potential and has a good playoff experience. Horton may have a better start then Andrei but to me we would be giving more in this deal. The kicker here is that Sergei may go to the KHL. Thats wen I stop laughing and think real hard about this deal.

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Old
11-30-2009, 10:08 AM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by odishabs View Post
Nathan Horton is someone i NEED to see in a habs uni.

Horton

for

Gorges, Weber, 1st round pick


Andrei - Pleks - Cammy
Horton - Gomer - Gio
Patches - Metro - Sergei
Pouliot - Lappy - Moen
Horton is big time overrated. He is way softer than Latendresse whom everybody here threw under the bus. Why was he a tourist when Booth nearly got his head taken off by Richards?

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Old
11-30-2009, 10:24 AM
  #108
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McGuire said the Panthers had no more interest in trading Horton,not sure if it's true but I'm sure he knows more then us what's going around.

Anyways I know it will never happen but I would love to see Frolik in a Habs uniform,what a player

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Old
11-30-2009, 11:01 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Horton is big time overrated.
Agree 100%.

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Old
11-30-2009, 11:32 AM
  #110
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LOL why on earth would Eric Staal be available?

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Old
11-30-2009, 11:43 AM
  #111
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Gomez and D'agostini back! Can this mean a trade????

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Old
11-30-2009, 11:44 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Habs View Post
Agree 100%.
Agree 200%. Horton is massively overrated.

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Old
11-30-2009, 11:48 AM
  #113
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I love how some people try to imply we could get Staal for Gomez. Pretend your a Carolina fan, why do you do this deal?

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Old
11-30-2009, 11:50 AM
  #114
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Backes if you please

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Old
11-30-2009, 12:27 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Mackattack View Post
LOL why on earth would Eric Staal be available?
Because hockeybuzz said so.

Jean-Francois Jacques would be a good lower type player.

Ryane Clowe is struggling on an offensive powerhouse like the Sharks. He's a big boy who does use his size and would be nice in the top 6, as size up front is something we're lacking.

Dustin Byfuglien - another big body who goes to the net. He's a bit of a gentle giant, but if need be, he will fight.

Andrew Ladd - Might not be an option since the hit on D'Agostini, but a big body with speed and some offensive touch.

Jack Skille - a good size player who could be a bit of a project like Pouliot.

Ben Eager - A goon that does what he's suppose to do and tough as well as being useful on the ice and has speed. Eager would also be a RFA and would allow us to trade, or waive Laraque.

Martin Hanzal - 6'5 big centre who is struggling in Phoenix this year. Would still cost a pretty penny, but could very well be worth it.

Ryane Clowe, or Martin Hanzal would be the biggest "Splash" if we got either one of them, but you don't need to trade the farm for one star player. We could sign one, or actually trade assets for one if we didn't have Gomez.

EDIT: David Backes would be nice too, but I think that might be the biggest pipe dream I've listed.

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Old
11-30-2009, 12:38 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Analyzer View Post
Because hockeybuzz said so.

Jean-Francois Jacques would be a good lower type player.

Ryane Clowe is struggling on an offensive powerhouse like the Sharks. He's a big boy who does use his size and would be nice in the top 6, as size up front is something we're lacking.

Dustin Byfuglien - another big body who goes to the net. He's a bit of a gentle giant, but if need be, he will fight.

Andrew Ladd - Might not be an option since the hit on D'Agostini, but a big body with speed and some offensive touch.

Jack Skille - a good size player who could be a bit of a project like Pouliot.

Ben Eager - A goon that does what he's suppose to do and tough as well as being useful on the ice and has speed. Eager would also be a RFA and would allow us to trade, or waive Laraque.

Martin Hanzal - 6'5 big centre who is struggling in Phoenix this year. Would still cost a pretty penny, but could very well be worth it.

Ryane Clowe, or Martin Hanzal would be the biggest "Splash" if we got either one of them, but you don't need to trade the farm for one star player. We could sign one, or actually trade assets for one if we didn't have Gomez.

EDIT: David Backes would be nice too, but I think that might be the biggest pipe dream I've listed.
I really really hope Bob won't bring Hanzal in Montreal, this dude is a disappointement since the beginning (just like Mueller), we have enough young guns, we need experience, we need guys who know the game. We have some young guys in our farm that we can trade for, maybe Weber (Subban will surpass him), Stewart, Wyman, White even Big Gill, Ryan Malone is the good fit for the Habs. No joking, he can fight, can hit, can score, he's 6'4 224 lb, 45 pts, 26 goals, 19 assists last year.

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Old
11-30-2009, 01:10 PM
  #117
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Those saying Hanzal has been a disappointment, have you seen him play? Or are you just going by his stats?

Sure he hasn't been lighting it up offensively, but he's a fantastic defensive center. GREAT guy to have on the 3rd line. And I think he could still become a 2nd liner some day.

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Old
11-30-2009, 01:23 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Habsfan18 View Post
Those saying Hanzal has been a disappointment, have you seen him play? Or are you just going by his stats?

Sure he hasn't been lighting it up offensively, but he's a fantastic defensive center. GREAT guy to have on the 3rd line. And I think he could still become a 2nd liner some day.
Yeah someday, maybe he will maybe he won't, we don't need another 3rd line player, we need an impact player. We've got like 6 player who are 3rd line player. I saw him play, i've been to 3 Yotes games this season and watch most of their games on tv, Tippett don't trust him, he's not on the ice when it's key moment.


Last edited by Komarov47: 12-01-2009 at 03:07 AM.
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Old
11-30-2009, 02:30 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Fozz View Post
Hey, we have the 4th and 5th picks of the 2005 draft playing for us. Doesn't that make us cup contenders?
Sadly... no.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fozz View Post
Just to prove that your overused belief that a team needs top picks to contend is a total misconception, here are some of the top-50 NHLers, according to THN and their respective draft rank:

#4 - Datsyuk: 171th overall
#5 - Chara: 56th overall
#7 - Getzlaf: 19th overall
#9 - Zetterberg: 210th overall
#10 - Lidstrom: 53th overall
Great.

You're picking from a pool of over 300 players per draft. Yes, you'll find superstars later on in most years. The difference is though that you won't find them consistently as you will with top picks. The higher you go the more likely you are to find them.

The only team that has been able to show any kind of consistency (4 superstars over the last 20 years of drafting) is Detroit.

I'd be all for this if I thought it was repeatable but we haven't been able to do this. And Detroit spent pretty much the entire decade of the 80s drafting with high picks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fozz View Post
In fact, the majority of the players on that list were available to all teams or altogether undrafted.
Sure. And you could add Brett Hull to that list too, he actually almost fell out of hockey altogether again though, good luck getting superstars consistently at that draft position.

Let's take Chara as an example. 171st overall. I'll let you take the ten picks ahead of him and the next ten picks behind him. 161-181. Go look at how many superstars were drafted in those 20 slots. Now go and look at the top five slots and compare...

It's not even close. Heck there are probably more superstars picked in the 4,5 position alone that generated more stars and I won't be surprised if Carey Price turns out to be one of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hermamoud View Post
We already have Price, Hamrlik and Pouliot, three top 5 draft picks
If Pouliot pans out... great. I won't hold my breath, I'm sure you won't either. Hamrlyk wouldn't apply as a rebuilding move anyway as we got him much later on and he was never a superstar.

Top picks aren't great just by virtue of them being top picks. They're just more likely to be great than lower ones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by neofury View Post
I love how some people try to imply we could get Staal for Gomez. Pretend your a Carolina fan, why do you do this deal?
Because you want to finish last for 1 billion years. Or, because you're a sadist.


Last edited by Habs10Habs: 12-01-2009 at 02:58 AM. Reason: Merge
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Old
11-30-2009, 02:46 PM
  #120
Monctonscout
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Originally Posted by Analyzer View Post
Because hockeybuzz said so.

Jean-Francois Jacques would be a good lower type player.

Ryane Clowe is struggling on an offensive powerhouse like the Sharks. He's a big boy who does use his size and would be nice in the top 6, as size up front is something we're lacking.

Dustin Byfuglien - another big body who goes to the net. He's a bit of a gentle giant, but if need be, he will fight.

Andrew Ladd - Might not be an option since the hit on D'Agostini, but a big body with speed and some offensive touch.

Jack Skille - a good size player who could be a bit of a project like Pouliot.

Ben Eager - A goon that does what he's suppose to do and tough as well as being useful on the ice and has speed. Eager would also be a RFA and would allow us to trade, or waive Laraque.

Martin Hanzal - 6'5 big centre who is struggling in Phoenix this year. Would still cost a pretty penny, but could very well be worth it.

Ryane Clowe, or Martin Hanzal would be the biggest "Splash" if we got either one of them, but you don't need to trade the farm for one star player. We could sign one, or actually trade assets for one if we didn't have Gomez.

EDIT: David Backes would be nice too, but I think that might be the biggest pipe dream I've listed.
Most of those guys have the same(or worst) knocks as Latendresse whom most people here are glad he is gone.

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Old
11-30-2009, 02:56 PM
  #121
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Re-printed study by resident stat-wiz SeventiesLord

Quote:
Between 1969 and 2000, there have been 160 top-5 picks. 35 of those have become superstars. (using 8.5 on the HF scale as a cutoff).

During that time, there have been 672 11th-30th picks. 23 of those have become superstars, using the same cutoff.

50% more superstars in 1/4 the picks, hmmm...

the actual sucess rates of these blocks of picks work out to 21.9% and 3.4%.

You can talk about Brodeur, Sakic, Hossa, Ignila, MacInnis all you want, but the truth is, they are 5 of the 23 superstars drafted out of 672 picks.

If your goal is to just get a "good" or better NHL player - (a 7.0 or higher, meaning 2nd line, 2nd pairing, or average/journeyman starter), you're looking at 112/160 in the top 5, or 70%. In the 10th-30th slots, you;re looking at 169/672, or 25%.

Or maybe you just want to make sure you get a player who will become a full-time NHLer for at least a few seasons (5 or higher, at worst, Belak). Drafting top-5, you're looking at 148/160, or 92.5%. In 10th-30th, 398/672, or 59.2%, hardly a guarantee that you'll even get an NHL player.

If you have 10 picks in the 10-30 slots, there is actually a 71% chance that you WON'T get a superstar player. (a 29% chance that you will) If you have 3 picks in the top 5, there is a 47% chance that you'll end up without a superstar, but a 53% chance that you will."
First round picks are obviously better than anywhere else. But the higher you are the better off you'll be as seen here.

Quote:
I thought I'd add a fun little note - get outside of the top 30 and there have only been 24 players (EVER!) drafted outside of the top 30 who qualify as superstars, this is from a pool of 6141 picks for a success rate of 0.4%.

In case you're wondering, these players are, in order of greatness:
Roy, Hasek, Messier, Lidstrom, Chelios, Hull, Langway, Fedorov, Kurri, Mogilny, Bure, Blake, Smith, Gilmour, Recchi, Zetterberg, Greschner, Richards, Bondra, Elias, Chara, Kiprusoff, Fleury, Robitaille."

Note, these are superstar players not franchise players (9.0 and above) franchise players are even more rare later on in the draft.
Seventies didn't include Glenn Anderson or Pavel Datsyuk here (I'm pretty sure at least one of these guys would qualify) it also doesn't factor in guys who weren't drafted at all (two superstars Oates and St. Louis) but it still doesn't matter. The vast majority of superstars are drafted early and the rate that they are drafted at is exponentially higher.

And looking at this in retrospect, I don't think Richards qualifies as a superstar but Datsyuk now does. I'll leave that for others to fight about.
Quote:
Suppose we're looking for a "true franchise player" who is 9.0 or over instead of a mere "superstar" at 8.5+.

There have been 36 of these in total.

In the top 5: 16 out of 160 picks or 10%
In 6-10: 5 out of 160 picks or 3.1%
In 11-30: 7 out of 640 or 1.1%
In 30-end of draft: 8 out of 6142 or 0.13%

It's worth mentioning, as well, that only two of these came after the 74th pick: Brett Hull and Dominik Hasek. So i could make two brackets out of that bottom one:
31-90: 6 out of 1920 or 0.31%
91-end of draft: 2 out of 0.047%

In the top 5, you are 322% as likely to get a franchise guy as in the 6-10 slots. In 6-10 you are 281% as likely to get one as in 11-30. In 11-30 you are 355% as likely to get one as you are in 31-90, and in 31-90 you are 660% as likely to find one than past the 90th pick.

And comparing the 91st pick and onwards to the top 5 shows you just how hard it is. You are 212 times as likely to find a franchise player in the top 5 compared to 91st and on
The patterns haven't changed much as the years have gone on either. Who are the best players in the league now? Malkin, Crosby and OV. All top two picks. Stamkos, Nash, Kovalchuk, Kane are also proving to be well on their way too.

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Old
11-30-2009, 05:05 PM
  #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Analyzer View Post
Because hockeybuzz said so.

Jean-Francois Jacques would be a good lower type player.

Ryane Clowe is struggling on an offensive powerhouse like the Sharks. He's a big boy who does use his size and would be nice in the top 6, as size up front is something we're lacking.

Dustin Byfuglien - another big body who goes to the net. He's a bit of a gentle giant, but if need be, he will fight.

Andrew Ladd - Might not be an option since the hit on D'Agostini, but a big body with speed and some offensive touch.

Jack Skille - a good size player who could be a bit of a project like Pouliot.

Ben Eager - A goon that does what he's suppose to do and tough as well as being useful on the ice and has speed. Eager would also be a RFA and would allow us to trade, or waive Laraque.

Martin Hanzal - 6'5 big centre who is struggling in Phoenix this year. Would still cost a pretty penny, but could very well be worth it.

Ryane Clowe, or Martin Hanzal would be the biggest "Splash" if we got either one of them, but you don't need to trade the farm for one star player. We could sign one, or actually trade assets for one if we didn't have Gomez.

EDIT: David Backes would be nice too, but I think that might be the biggest pipe dream I've listed.
Why would they be pipedreams? I saw getting Pouliot as a pipedream not too long ago.

And somebody here (not you Analyzer, this is pointed at some people around here) has to explain to me why Habs players lose all value when they're in a slump, and lo and behold, guys like Backes, Horton and others don't lose any value when they're in a slump....

Lemme guess, the only difference is that players on other teams are always worth more, or something like that.

I never once thought we'd be able to get Pouliot without having to get rid of one of our better prospects, and Lats is not one of them.

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Old
11-30-2009, 05:12 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by odishabs View Post
Nathan Horton is someone i NEED to see in a habs uni.
I don't think Horton is going anywhere.

Too bad too, he'd be awesome on a decent team.

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Old
11-30-2009, 05:14 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Horton is big time overrated. He is way softer than Latendresse whom everybody here threw under the bus. Why was he a tourist when Booth nearly got his head taken off by Richards?
Remind me of whom Latendresse defended--I mean in a serious way.

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Old
11-30-2009, 05:15 PM
  #125
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To Toronto: Andrei Kostitstyn, and PK Subban.
To Montreal: Jason Blake.

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