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Tortorella's System Cannot Work with this Roster

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Old
12-01-2009, 12:50 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by TheHotRock View Post
is it bad that all i care about is gaborik breaking jagr's records?

i want a top 10 pick and i want to be able to watch a guy dominate. sue me. we weren't gonna win anything this year anyway.

i'm fantanking
This is exactly what i'm focused on. Just have fun watching Gaborik have a dominant season, pray for the realistic bottom 10 finish so its juicy enough to be packaged for one of those lottery stars.

This team making the playoffs and a 1st round KO is just so redundant at this point with the amount of work that needs to be done.

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12-01-2009, 12:57 AM
  #52
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The endless line changes = little difference + no chemistry

Gabby scores 2, makes his one line look good....regardless of who draws the lucky straw

This is similar to Renny/Jagr era except that team actually knew how to play defense and win some 2-1 games.

This team keeps getting blown the **** out.....its starting to feel pre lockout

Who would roll the dice with Gretzky at this point?

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12-01-2009, 01:00 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by broadwayblue View Post
2 pages to figure out what's wrong with this roster? Is it really that complicated? We've got 1 legit star and the rest of the team is almost entirely 3rd liners. And on D we have a bunch of primarily young guys who are just getting their feet wet. This team can't win with an offensive system and it can't win with a defensive system. But that's ok, as long as they keep moving in the right direction. I see a much brighter future for this team in 2 years.
Sadly this just the way it is. The team is flawed at both ends. How do you build up the blueline and add secondary scoring mid season....under the cap?

2 years.....ugh

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12-01-2009, 01:02 AM
  #54
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A big thing this team needs is chemistry. The top line has had at least 4-5 different combos this season alone with Gabby and Prospal being constants. Dubinsky, Lisin, Higgins, Kotalik and Avery have all been there with no one seeming to be 100% comfortable. But part of that might have to do with not playing with each other for long enough. Look at Pittsburgh, I know we all hate them but they have chemistry. Look at the guys they put with Malkin and Crosby, neither guy is normally playing on a line with other superstar players, unless they happen to play on the same lines. They have guys on their lines like Kunitz, Guerin, Fedotenko, Kennedy (his face looks like an ass), and Talbot; not exactly top tier players. But they play together for periods of time and there is chemistry and cohesion.

Their defense is also not very big but they play positionally well, unlike us who have guys like Roszival who step up for no reason and can't make up his mind on when he needs to pass. I think the Rangers need a hard hitting defensive D-man and a guy like Marc Savard, probably one of the better playmakers in the league. If he isn't signed by the deadline, he may come rather inexpensively and his cap hit won't be as harsh as it is if he was acquired this early in the season.

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12-01-2009, 01:11 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by rvdnsx View Post
A big thing this team needs is chemistry. The top line has had at least 4-5 different combos this season alone
The last time this team had real chemistry....

Straka - Nylander - Jagr


Its been a battle to find chemistry ever since......

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12-01-2009, 01:13 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by broadwayblue View Post
You just listed 3 20 goal scorers...I hardly consider that 'talent'. I'm not saying it's worthless...but it's a far cry from having a 30 goal guy to make other teams worry about.
let's break this down.

I listed 3 20+ goal scorers.

Those 3 goal scorers are on pace to score 25 goals COMBINED.

if they performed at their usual 20 goal scorer pace, this is a top 2 offense in the NHL right now.


secondary scoring, primary scoring, however the hell you want to break it down, a top 2 offense is a top 2 offense. those 3 are a HUGE HUGE HUGE HUGE reason why we aren't winning games as much as we should. 3 20 goal guys who are performing like 3 10 goal guys is nigh impossible for almost any team to absorb.

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12-01-2009, 01:14 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Chariot View Post
The last time this team had real chemistry....

Straka - Nylander - Jagr


Its been a battle to find chemistry ever since......
chemistry can also be a function of winning. When you are winning, it seems like everyone is playing great with everyone, and when you are losing, it seems like nobody is compatible with anyone.

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12-01-2009, 01:20 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
Chris Drury, career 25+ goal scorer
Ryan Callahan, scored 20+ goals last year
Chris Higgins, career 20+ goal scorer.

Those 3 you pencil in for 65 goals combined right? Right now they are on pace to score 25 combined goals.

Take 40 goals off the top of any team and I bet you they will look a lot weaker than they actually are. If you can get just those 3 guys going at a very reasonable rate that they have proven over their careers that they can produce at, the Rangers go from the 14th ranked offense to the 2nd ranked offense in the league.

This team has the talent, when you factor in that Gaborik is playing out of his mind, but those 3 guys struggling as they are has really hurt this team.

Higgins - Drury - Callahan

I could see that line giving a goal a night if even one of them evolves into a threat.

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12-01-2009, 01:23 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
chemistry can also be a function of winning. When you are winning, it seems like everyone is playing great with everyone, and when you are losing, it seems like nobody is compatible with anyone.......
....Including the goaltender. Well said.

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12-01-2009, 01:26 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
....Including the goaltender. Well said.
*yawn* nice try, but, as i mentioned elsewhere, even in games we are winning, Henrik has looked unsteady.

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12-01-2009, 01:33 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
Chris Drury, career 25+ goal scorer
Always played with better players, whether in Colorado or Buffalo, then he has as a New York Ranger. Was often the least or second-least talented player on each team's power play, both of which were quite good.

Has never had the ability to create offense for himself consistently. Has never been a skill player. Is essentially a third line center at this point in his career unless playing with very capable and creative wingers.

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Ryan Callahan, scored 20+ goals last year
Needs someone to get the puck to him in good scoring situations. Rarely capable of doing it for himself. Not a top 6 forward on a contending team.

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Chris Higgins, career 20+ goal scorer.
Has always, especially since last season, needed...basically the same thing. A playmaker.

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Those 3 you pencil in for 65 goals combined right? Right now they are on pace to score 25 combined goals.

Take 40 goals off the top of any team and I bet you they will look a lot weaker than they actually are. If you can get just those 3 guys going at a very reasonable rate that they have proven over their careers that they can produce at, the Rangers go from the 14th ranked offense to the 2nd ranked offense in the league.

This team has the talent, when you factor in that Gaborik is playing out of his mind, but those 3 guys struggling as they are has really hurt this team.
If you penciled them in for 65 goals prior to the season, that's your bad. What about this team made you think they'd get 65 goals? There's no one to pass them the puck!

This team has NO talent outside of Gaborik, Prospal, Del Zotto, Gilroy, and Dubinsky. Everyone else on this team is a grinder, doesn't have enough talent to be a force, or simply doesn't belong in this league.

Those are the only skill players on this team. That is pathetic. These are people with real hands, real speed, real moves, and the capacity to put those tools together on a regular basis and make things happen in the offensive end. Something a character like Lisin, for example, does not seem to have the capacity to do. None of the others are liable to do that, either.

This is a lottery team with a superstar forward and a superstar goalie who isn't playing his best hockey (but is HARDLY this team's biggest problem, I might add). This team, for the second straight season, despite a revamped roster, is one of the league's least-talented teams. We undoubtedly have a more talented player than we had last year in Gaborik as compared to Zherdev or Gomez, but collectively, we may actually have less talent this season than we did last. Pathetic. And frankly, outside of maybe 06-07, this team has been one of the league's least talented teams every season since the lockout.

And the reason for this is also pathetic, yet so simple. We don't know how to manage a budget! The team does not seem to understand the basic fundamental concepts of how to run a business, much like Kotalik doesn't seem to understand the basic fundamental concepts of how to play smart positional hockey. That's probably a good reason not to sign a player like him, but our team doesn't seem to understand that players like him are not part of the solution. He's just the latest in a tremendously long line that starts a decade ago.

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12-01-2009, 01:37 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by t3hg00se View Post
Higgins - Drury - Callahan

I could see that line giving a goal a night if even one of them evolves into a threat.
My crystal ball says none of them will ever evolve into a threat unless there is someone to pass them the puck. Right now, Drury is devolving, if anything.

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12-01-2009, 01:38 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Always played with better players, whether in Colorado or Buffalo, then he has as a New York Ranger. Was often the least or second-least talented player on each team's power play, both of which were quite good.

Has never had the ability to create offense for himself consistently. Has never been a skill player. Is essentially a third line center at this point in his career unless playing with very capable and creative wingers.
and yet, 22 goals last year, 25 goals the year before.

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Needs someone to get the puck to him in good scoring situations. Rarely capable of doing it for himself. Not a top 6 forward on a contending team.
scores most of his goals off the rush, and off of hustle plays, he's never been a sniper, i cant even think of plays where hes scored goals off of great passes on set plays. he scores his goals in the dirty areas of the ice and off of rushes.

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Has always, especially since last season, needed...basically the same thing. A playmaker.
See Callahan.

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If you penciled them in for 65 goals prior to the season, that's your bad. What about this team made you think they'd get 65 goals? There's no one to pass them the puck!

This team has NO talent outside of Gaborik, Prospal, Del Zotto, Gilroy, and Dubinsky. Everyone else on this team is a grinder, doesn't have enough talent to be a force, or simply doesn't belong in this league.

Those are the only skill players on this team. That is pathetic. These are people with real hands, real speed, real moves, and the capacity to put those tools together on a regular basis and make things happen in the offensive end. Something a character like Lisin, for example, does not seem to have the capacity to do. None of the others are liable to do that, either.

This is a lottery team with a superstar forward and a superstar goalie who isn't playing his best hockey (but is HARDLY this team's biggest problem, I might add). This team, for the second straight season, despite a revamped roster, is one of the league's least-talented teams. We undoubtedly have a more talented player than we had last year in Gaborik as compared to Zherdev or Gomez, but collectively, we may actually have less talent this season than we did last. Pathetic. And frankly, outside of maybe 06-07, this team has been one of the league's least talented teams every season since the lockout.

And the reason for this is also pathetic, yet so simple. We don't know how to manage a budget! The team does not seem to understand the basic fundamental concepts of how to run a business, much like Kotalik doesn't seem to understand the basic fundamental concepts of how to play smart positional hockey. That's probably a good reason not to sign a player like him, but our team doesn't seem to understand that players like him are not part of the solution. He's just the latest in a tremendously long line that starts a decade ago.
im not even going to bother with all this. its retconned and such not worth even addressing.

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12-01-2009, 01:49 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
and yet, 22 goals last year, 25 goals the year before.
Right...when he played with better players than he's playing with now. And now, even more than last season, he's playing with players that play the same exact game he does. They're all great energy guys, but none of them can handle the puck or do anything with it.

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scores most of his goals off the rush, and off of hustle plays, he's never been a sniper, i cant even think of plays where hes scored goals off of great passes on set plays. he scores his goals in the dirty areas of the ice and off of rushes.
Sniper? Set plays? What set plays? Are we talking about the same team here? Sure, he scores garbage goals and off of rushes. But on a rush, someone has to be able to get him the puck. Someone has to have the ability to put the puck in position for him to pick up the trash. Even crap like Gomez is better at that than anyone on this team besides the ones I spoke of.

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See Callahan.
Guess you haven't seen many Habs games.

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im not even going to bother with all this. its retconned and such not worth even addressing.
How the hell is it retconned?

What isn't worth addressing is the system, because no system will solve this lack of talent. No system will change the fact that we can't afford legitimate talent because half of our budget is being thrown in the garbage. The only system that can eek out wins with a team like this is Renney's, but he's gone now.

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12-01-2009, 02:11 AM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
My crystal ball says none of them will ever evolve into a threat unless there is someone to pass them the puck. Right now, Drury is devolving, if anything.
They'd have to play like a third line, they can't snipe as is, so what's a center who passes them the puck in prime scoring areas? Have the D fire the puck into the net and make them crash the net and bang the puck in, they aren't better than that.

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12-01-2009, 02:15 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
im not even going to bother with all this. its retconned and such not worth even addressing.
Interesting. I think most non-Rangers fans on HF would sign the dotted line on that Sting36 comment being true almost to a word.

Also because your production examples just don't address that Callahan's off-the-rish scoring has something to do with the rush being the only thing Gomez is elite at, and your similar argument for Higgins not accounting for the fact that his best Montreal seasons saw him play with Koivu in the main (with guys like Kovalev or Ryder completing the line).

Ultimately, its boring and non-constructive, but Rangers are not going anywhere until the dead cap-space disappears. Between Redden, Drury, Rozy and Kotalik, 10+ million a year is paid beyond the level they produce at, and you can hardly do anything to address problems with this being so. Giving Brashear 1.4 million on a multi-year contract is just another example.
If that isn't a self-created problem, what is?

Next season, even if the youngsters improve leaps and bounds, this will still be so, as you have your Staal and Girardi to sign (your first D-pairing) and Prospal's juicy buy-out induced contract is up. Then there's Higgins who is an UFA too, and even without those 4, you're at 49.4 million committed to 16 players. If anything, you figure to be less competitive next season than you are now unless the owners waive Redden and Drury and eat their salaries. You guys know better than me if this is likely.

With Tortorella, the really interesting question is whether he is the right guy to develop youngsters for the long haul, because that will be the real success criteria for this Rangers team. Contending for anything other than bubble playoff status is out of reach looking at the talent on the roster and the severely flawed composition of players on the blueline. Not least because teams that were previously beneath you are improving big time in the SE.


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Old
12-01-2009, 02:15 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by t3hg00se View Post
They'd have to play like a third line, they can't snipe as is, so what's a center who passes them the puck in prime scoring areas? Have the D fire the puck into the net and make them crash the net and bang the puck in, they aren't better than that.
Aren't Drury and Callahan already doing that together, and producing little? Isn't Higgins basically doing that with Anisimov and Parenteau. Sure, those guys have a few more moves than Dru or Cally, but they're basically grinding it out whenever they get it deep, or playing off the rush. It doesn't seem to be working very often for Higgins with those guys.

What makes you think it would work out well with the other two? I don't think having a line of three role players who play, basically, the same way, is going to be conducive to scoring goals.

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12-01-2009, 02:31 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by t3hg00se View Post
They'd have to play like a third line, they can't snipe as is, so what's a center who passes them the puck in prime scoring areas? Have the D fire the puck into the net and make them crash the net and bang the puck in, they aren't better than that.
Did you watch the Higgins-Drury-Callahan line prior to Drury's injury?

It wasn't very successful. They had major problems generating offense because the 3 of them play the same type of game. They had trouble gaining the zone and resorted to dump-and-chase which didn't always work.

All 3 forwards can't be crashing the net simultaneously, at least one them must have playmaking ability. Drury and Callahan have played on a line together before and have had limited success with players like Straka, Dawes, and Naslund on left wing. Those players possessed better on-ice vision and passing ability than Higgins right now, and that's the type of player that line needs.

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12-01-2009, 03:37 AM
  #69
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I'm sorry to me it's not his system it's his decision making that stinks. I really feel we were out coached by the Pens in this home and home. Our 7 million dollar captain is struggling to score and he puts Brashear on his wing. Good move Torts! Really before I didn't care cause it didn't last the whole game but this was silly the amount of ice time Brash saw tonight. Don't try to put Kotalik with him which is why we signed him in the first place I thought, and his shot from the point on the PP. To me 10 million bucks of talent wasted by our coach tonight.

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12-01-2009, 03:37 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by OverTheCap View Post
Did you watch the Higgins-Drury-Callahan line prior to Drury's injury?

It wasn't very successful. They had major problems generating offense because the 3 of them play the same type of game. They had trouble gaining the zone and resorted to dump-and-chase which didn't always work.

All 3 forwards can't be crashing the net simultaneously, at least one them must have playmaking ability. Drury and Callahan have played on a line together before and have had limited success with players like Straka, Dawes, and Naslund on left wing. Those players possessed better on-ice vision and passing ability than Higgins right now, and that's the type of player that line needs.
Avery-Anisimov-Parentaeu line was also working very well and is now history.

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12-01-2009, 03:39 AM
  #71
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Avery-Anisimov-Parentaeu line was also working very well and is now history.
Well that's because Avery works much better on a line with Prospal and Gaborik.

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12-01-2009, 04:04 AM
  #72
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I think that a Playmaker is what Rangers really lacking. Someone that could enter the zone, hold on to the puck and make passes to open teammates.

Callahan scored a lot of goals last year because he played a lot with Gomez. Gomez was overpaid but added more offense to Rangers than anybody else besides Gaborik on the current roster.

If it would be possible i would like to see Sather get rid of Drury, Bring in a First line playmaking center then also get rid of Roszival and replace him with a hard hitting punisher. But apperantly its not easy to accomplish.


Prospal - ? - Gaborik
Avery - Dubinsky - Callahan
Higgins - Anisimov - Kotalik
Byers - Boyle - Brashear

Staal - Girardi
? - Del Zotto
Redden - Gilroy

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12-01-2009, 06:44 AM
  #73
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they started 7-1 didnt they?
And since?

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12-01-2009, 06:52 AM
  #74
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I'm an objective observer, 16 yr TB fan and sat behind Torts on many occasions. To be honest, almost no system would work with this current roster. Drury and Redden are, well, handicapping this whole franchise. But on the bright side, with the youth of Anisimov, Parenteau, MDZ, Sanguinetti etc, the near future is very bright. Sign one top 6 playmaker in the offseason, a defensive specialist who's great on faceoffs and presuming the young guys develop as they should in the course of a year, this roster will be A ok next season. No need to break into a major panic. Another thing to remember about the "Torts system" is the epic need for speedy offensive defenseman and forwards who win a ton of faceoffs in the neutral zone, to stem the number of odd-man rushes, and play shutdown defense. This is where a guy like Pahlsson or Sillinger would look like a god.

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12-01-2009, 06:59 AM
  #75
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Originally Posted by NYRangers1388 View Post
I have a feeling on this season, and it is as follows:

Our team has flaws, as does every team. Our flaws are greater than most in that we lack true secondary scoring and we lack a solid defense.

However, teams can win, or at least be competitive with flaws. We all saw this in the past 3 years, where we at least made the playoffs and got to the 2nd round.

In reality, this year's team is a whole lot like teams in the years past. We really have never had solid defense men, and with guys like Kotalik and Ozolinsh, we had pretty big holes. We have lacked secondary scoring for at least 2 seasons, if not 3. Yet in the past we were able to be competitive. Why?

The difference: the system. I think there are interesting things here. First, let's make some assumptions which seem to be popular.

1. Renney's system may be too defensive minded to really win a Stanley Cup.
2. Torts's systems may have that offensive push to it which can bring home a Cup as in Tampa.

This may be right...however, what is going on is that while Renney's system covered up and blocked our team's holes and flaws, Tortorella's exacerbates the problems.

Renney's defense-first mindset allowed our key guys (think Jagr=Gaborik, Straka/Nylander/Zherdev=Prospal, etc) to score 2 goals and for us to still consistently win hockey games. By being solid on defense and not exposing our goaltender, we were able to capitalize on the advantage that lundqvist gives us. Lundy with the corrent defensive support is a Vezina goaltender. Without that defensive support, it is clear that he can be exploited.

This is what is wrong with Tort's system. It's not that his system is bad; in fact, I think it is great. I love the idea of the offense being hte main focus and of defense joining the rush etc. However, it is a terrible system for this roster. What it does is expose our half of the ice and our goaltender. In giving the opposition time and space on 2 on 1s and from the slot, Lundqvist's weaknesses are exploited and we are scored on quite a bit. Suddenly 2 or 3 goals are not enough to win...and unfortunately 2 or 3 goals is all that our team is capable of producing.

To offer an analogy: It is almost like we have a Ferrari (Tort's high paced, fast, powerful offensive strategy) yet we lack the crucial engine parts and the oil which are necessary to keep it running and running smoothly. Without the necessary parts, that Ferrari is just a shell of a car.

Likewise, without the necessary offensive pieces and defensive plugs, Tortorella's Ferrari of a system is doomed to fail. Could Tort's and his offense-first strategy bring NYC a cup? Yes. But can it do that with this current lineup? Absolutely not.

From this, it is clear that something has to change. Either the coaching has to change and Tort's has to understand this and focus on defense more, or the Roster has to be significantly altered.
Well said.. I agree with a lot of this... The system under Renney was defense first, while there seemed to be a lot of shots given up, it seemed the shots were not a lot of high scoring chances such as 2 on 1 and 3 on 2 and etc... This did not expose the goalie as much...

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