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Howard gets 4th straight start vs. Dallas

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Old
11-22-2009, 03:27 PM
  #26
HockeyinHD
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
He's still a young goalie. Let's see what he's like in 2 or 3 years.


Why is it that the deadline for Howard always seems to get moved back? When he struggled at the AHL level, we had to wait for a number of seasons to see if he was going to improve, or we had to just ignore what happened in the AHL because, um, it doesn't count.

Now he's in the NHL, and we have to wait two or three years at this level too?

The reason Detroit develops prospects the way they do is taht when they are finally on the team, they need to play well pretty quickly. If Howard was a 21 year old kid... sure, he'd be green and needing some time. He's 25 with over 200 games at the AHL level. He doesn't get a 24 month warranty plan.

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Let's see if he gets better.
Well, duh. Obviously.

In reality, he's got this year to make his statement. Not two, and certainly not three. For those not keeping track, Danny Larsson is putting up moderately fantastic numbers in GR... and that's taking into account his 5 goals on 6 shots atrocity in an early start. If one (convienently) pulls that start off the books, his numbers in the other games are astronomically good.

If Howard doesn't prove he's a plus player for the team, he's going to get moved and replaced with Larsson. I don't think the Wings are going to go into next season with an Osgood/Howard tandem when both guys are expiring the same year, and I don't think the Wings will extend Howard for anything beyond what he makes now absent a significant uptick in his production.

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11-22-2009, 03:31 PM
  #27
detredWINgs
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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
Who's miffed?



Setting aside for the moment the obvious silliness of comparing forwards who have specific roles to goalies who don't, are you saying that the expectation for Howard all along was for him to be an inferior goalie to Chris Osgood, a goalie that many (most?) people here see as lamentably below average?

Interesting.
How do Howard and Osgood not have specific roles? Have you never heard the terms 1A and 1B?

And yes, people certainly expected him to be inferior to a 400-win goaltender.

I really don't know what you're trying to get at here, other than to start an argument over something that simply isn't there.

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11-22-2009, 03:49 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by detredWINgs View Post
How do Howard and Osgood not have specific roles? Have you never heard the terms 1A and 1B?
Don't be silly. There is no such thing as a checking line goalie, or a sniper goalie, or an enforcer goalie, or a pass-first goalie. Goalies have one job: stop the puck. Even if a guy is a backup on the depth chart, when he's in the game he's the #1 goalie that night. Depending on their role within the team, forwards can have any number of other primary jobs above and beyond trying to score a goal.

Why are you being a little bit willfully obtuse here?

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And yes, people certainly expected him to be inferior to a 400-win goaltender.
If that's your assessment of where people were at with Jim Howard, well... there you go then. I suspect people had higher aspirations for his career than 'not quite as competent as Chris Osgood', though. I think that's where are primary disagreement lies.

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I really don't know what you're trying to get at here, other than to start an argument over something that simply isn't there.
I'm trying to understand why people are relieved and/or satisfied Howard hasn't played as well as Osgood.

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11-22-2009, 04:20 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post


Why is it that the deadline for Howard always seems to get moved back?
No idea.

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When he struggled at the AHL level, we had to wait for a number of seasons to see if he was going to improve, or we had to just ignore what happened in the AHL because, um, it doesn't count.
Because the AHL isn't the NHL.


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Now he's in the NHL, and we have to wait two or three years at this level too?
Depends what you're waiting for.
From what I've seen, he's a capable back up. But there are some questions which can only be answered in the NHL.
Is he going to be a bonafide NHL starter? Is he going to be a big-game goalie? Is he going to be an above average starter? An elite goalie?
That's all off in the distance.

A year ago, Steve Mason and Carey Price were the toast of the league.
If you based your decision on them by what you saw in November, you might have a very different view come March, April or the next November.


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The reason Detroit develops prospects the way they do is taht when they are finally on the team, they need to play well pretty quickly. If Howard was a 21 year old kid... sure, he'd be green and needing some time. He's 25 with over 200 games at the AHL level. He doesn't get a 24 month warranty plan.
How long did Kronwall get? How about Filppula? Hudler?
What does Ericsson get?



Well, duh. Obviously.

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In reality, he's got this year to make his statement. Not two, and certainly not three. For those not keeping track, Danny Larsson is putting up moderately fantastic numbers in GR... and that's taking into account his 5 goals on 6 shots atrocity in an early start. If one (convienently) pulls that start off the books, his numbers in the other games are astronomically good.
He's got this year to make a ONE statement: I belong in the NHL.
He has more than a year to define whether or not he's more than a backup goalie.

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If Howard doesn't prove he's a plus player for the team, he's going to get moved and replaced with Larsson. I don't think the Wings are going to go into next season with an Osgood/Howard tandem when both guys are expiring the same year, and I don't think the Wings will extend Howard for anything beyond what he makes now absent a significant uptick in his production.
He already is a plus player.
His stats are practically the same as Osgood.
For his future? I don't think Howard is going to cost much money at the end of this season. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see both he and Ozzie back.

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11-22-2009, 04:26 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
Don't be silly. There is no such thing as a checking line goalie, or a sniper goalie, or an enforcer goalie, or a pass-first goalie. Goalies have one job: stop the puck. .
LOL.
Yeah, Luongo and Raycroft have the same role.

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11-22-2009, 06:25 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
Don't be silly. There is no such thing as a checking line goalie, or a sniper goalie, or an enforcer goalie, or a pass-first goalie. Goalies have one job: stop the puck. Even if a guy is a backup on the depth chart, when he's in the game he's the #1 goalie that night. Depending on their role within the team, forwards can have any number of other primary jobs above and beyond trying to score a goal.

Why are you being a little bit willfully obtuse here?
What are you smoking? There are back-ups. There are starters. There are 1Bs. There are 1As. I'm at a loss as to why you can't figure that out.

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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
If that's your assessment of where people were at with Jim Howard, well... there you go then. I suspect people had higher aspirations for his career than 'not quite as competent as Chris Osgood', though. I think that's where are primary disagreement lies.
So now that hes played 10 games as a regular, he can't get any better? Somebody needs to tell all those aspiring goalies out there that if you aren't a legitimate starter after playing a whopping 19 NHL games, then you'll never improve.

Someone needs to get ahold of the likes of Anderson and Kiprusoff ASAP, and tell 'em to pack it in. That the past 2-5 years in their respective cases have been nothing more than an illusion.

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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
I'm trying to understand why people are relieved and/or satisfied Howard hasn't played as well as Osgood.
Because he went from looking like he couldn't hold a candle to Chris Osgood to a half-step behind him. In a matter of 10 games. In his first season as a regular.


I really can't get over that "aspirations for his career" bit. 19 games = a career? Hysterical.

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12-01-2009, 09:49 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by detredWINgs View Post
What are you smoking? There are back-ups. There are starters. There are 1Bs. There are 1As. I'm at a loss as to why you can't figure that out.


Your inability to grasp the inherent differences between the roles of skaters and the roles of goalies is moderately amusing.

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So now that hes played 10 games as a regular, he can't get any better? Somebody needs to tell all those aspiring goalies out there that if you aren't a legitimate starter after playing a whopping 19 NHL games, then you'll never improve.


Is that what I said?

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I really can't get over that "aspirations for his career" bit. 19 games = a career? Hysterical.
Especially the part where you've entirely missed the context of the remark. That part adds quite a bit to the humor, I must say.

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Old
12-01-2009, 09:58 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
LOL.
Yeah, Luongo and Raycroft have the same role.
They do: Stop the puck. One of them is just better at it than the other.

Seriously, it's laughable you two are struggling with this. The equivalent position would be to say that every forwards #1 and only real responsibility is to score goals. That's it. Don't play defense, don't try and set up goals, don't fight, hit, pass, or cover. None of that matters. Just score goals.

Goalies don't have to do anything else but stop the puck. That's it. That's the list. They occasionally have to communicate with defensemen when the puck is in the zone, and they occasionally have to bang their stick on the ice for special teams transitions where guys are coming on. In the larger scheme of their role, those are incidentals.

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12-01-2009, 11:20 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
They do: Stop the puck. One of them is just better at it than the other.

Seriously, it's laughable you two are struggling with this. The equivalent position would be to say that every forwards #1 and only real responsibility is to score goals. That's it. Don't play defense, don't try and set up goals, don't fight, hit, pass, or cover. None of that matters. Just score goals.

Goalies don't have to do anything else but stop the puck. That's it. That's the list. They occasionally have to communicate with defensemen when the puck is in the zone, and they occasionally have to bang their stick on the ice for special teams transitions where guys are coming on. In the larger scheme of their role, those are incidentals.
It's laughable that you don't get it.
When you're THE starter, you're THE MAN. That's a role. It's your job to get it done, and the puck stops there.

Backup guy comes in with no pressure. Mopping up the mess. Getting to play. Showing off for his next job. Playing the second half of a back-to-back against the crappy team.

Maybe your view has been skewed by watching Detroit, which hasn't had a clear #1 in a long time.

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12-01-2009, 12:48 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
It's laughable that you don't get it.
When you're THE starter, you're THE MAN. That's a role. It's your job to get it done, and the puck stops there.

Backup guy comes in with no pressure. Mopping up the mess. Getting to play. Showing off for his next job. Playing the second half of a back-to-back against the crappy team.

Maybe your view has been skewed by watching Detroit, which hasn't had a clear #1 in a long time.
+1

There's also a huge difference among starters and what is expected of them.

Buffalo, during the Hasek days, lived and died as their goaltending went. It took Hasek's heroics to make the playoffs, and even more heroics to make a run once they got in. Luongo carries a lot of weight in Vancouver. That's why he's the team captain. The Flames depend on Kipper just as much. And where would the Devils be without Brodeur?

Contrast that with the Wings teams of the last 15 years or so. We haven't needed a franchise caliber goaltender, and in fact Ken Holland's plan doesn't even allow the salary for one. A goalie like Luongo is considered a luxury here. But we still have some requirements, which is why Legace didn't pan out.

To say a goalie is a goalie is a goalie is not true. There are a myriad of different roles and expectations placed on goalies. It's why they get compared to football quarterbacks so much.

And we haven't even touched on goaltending styles, or how some play the puck more than others, etc.

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12-01-2009, 01:26 PM
  #36
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Howard is in all my fantacy leagues for a reason. Somehow the Red Wings backup always ends up being the starter the last 3 years? Haskek--> ozzy
Ozzy--> Conclin Ozzy--> howard im just saying it seems to be a trend

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12-01-2009, 07:52 PM
  #37
HockeyinHD
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
It's laughable that you don't get it.
When you're THE starter, you're THE MAN. That's a role. It's your job to get it done, and the puck stops there.


I demand this thread continue indefinitely.

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Backup guy comes in with no pressure. Mopping up the mess. Getting to play. Showing off for his next job. Playing the second half of a back-to-back against the crappy team.
And the only difference between the two players, the ONLY DIFFERENCE, is that one guy is better at stopping the puck than the other.

That's it. That's the only difference.

Again, the direct equivalent would be reducing ones assessment of forwards to whether or not they scored a goal.

There is not a difference in role between the starter and the backup, there is a difference of competence between the starter and the backup.

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