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Old
12-01-2009, 07:14 AM
  #76
Levitate
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The flip side is that this team probably isn't good enough to try to play super defensively either. Last years team wasn't.

If this team can't play Torts system, they likely can't play a more defensive system and survive either. To be honest, it's a matter of talent and players living up to their billing more than it is a system problem.

If Callahan, Higgins, Drury, Kotalik, Lisin, Avery to an extent (I think he's been looking better lately), and Dubinsky could score with any kind of regularity, then this team is immediately much, much better. Out of all of those players, you think at least one or two would be "on" at any given time, even if the other are "off". But no, they've mostly just been off the entire season, and they've been given every opportunity to do well and none of them have taken it.

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12-01-2009, 07:17 AM
  #77
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As some have pointed out--most tellingly a TB and a Penguin fan--the Rangers are hamstrung by contracts to vets who aren't producing enough. Paying Drury $7 mil per and so far he has two goals to show. You'd expect to at least get some of the missing secondary scoring from a guy you were paying that much money to--wouldn't you?

Even with Gaborik and Lundqvist--this team looks like a reach to make the playoffs to me. The good news is there is a core to build a really good team around starting with Lundqvist and Gaborik. The D is inexperienced but should be really good in the future if we can hold the group together and subtract the two hugely overpaid contracts of Redden and Rozsival.

Forward has some interesting players as well--Dubinsky, Anisimov and Avery's very cap friendly contract (thanks to Dallas paying half of it). Callahan would be a good 3rd liner--maybe without the A. Again there are a couple large contracts--most notably Drury's that stand in the way of progress.

At the moment I can see us bottom 10 in the league by the end of the year. Whatever Slats does--it would be best to hold on to his 1st and 2nd round draft picks. We all know that we have a helluva prospect pool--if nothing else it can get deeper.

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12-01-2009, 07:17 AM
  #78
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With Renney, last night's game at worst, goes in to overtime tied at 2. Instead, the Rangers get their ***** handed to them for the third straight game.

If Renney had this team it goes to the ECF, instead Tortorella continues to be a stubborn my-way-or-the-highway guy and continues to push the team to implosion. Remember last year when god forbid Renney changed lines from one night to the next? But now 20 combination's a night is well within reason.

Tortorella lost this team in Montreal when he decided to bench Higgins and Avery and will never get the team back.

This mess falls on Drury's head, not because he under performing, but because he led the charge along from Scott Gomez to get rid of Renney.

But maybe most interesting is how a vast majority of people who visit this board hated Renney and knew Tortorella was the answer.

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12-01-2009, 07:19 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by eco's bones View Post
As some have pointed out--most tellingly a TB and a Penguin fan--the Rangers are hamstrung by contracts to vets who aren't producing enough. Paying Drury $7 mil per and so far he has two goals to show. You'd expect to at least get some of the missing secondary scoring from a guy you were paying that much money to--wouldn't you?

Even with Gaborik and Lundqvist--this team looks like a reach to make the playoffs to me. The good news is there is a core to build a really good team around starting with Lundqvist and Gaborik. The D is inexperienced but should be really good in the future if we can hold the group together and subtract the two hugely overpaid contracts of Redden and Rozsival.

Forward has some interesting players as well--Dubinsky, Anisimov and Avery's very cap friendly contract (thanks to Dallas paying half of it). Callahan would be a good 3rd liner--maybe without the A. Again there are a couple large contracts--most notably Drury's that stand in the way of progress.

At the moment I can see us bottom 10 in the league by the end of the year. Whatever Slats does--it would be best to hold on to his 1st and 2nd round draft picks. We all know that we have a helluva prospect pool--if nothing else it can get deeper.
With Gabby and Lundqvist, you can't go full on tank. I'd be thinking of moving assets on the cheap, and finally waiving Redden or Drury. Enough is enough, I'm starting to feel bad for you guys because of it!

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12-01-2009, 07:33 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by donGjohnson View Post
With Gabby and Lundqvist, you can't go full on tank. I'd be thinking of moving assets on the cheap, and finally waiving Redden or Drury. Enough is enough, I'm starting to feel bad for you guys because of it!
Drury. Full NMC. For the 372897410th time.

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12-01-2009, 07:41 AM
  #81
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Drury. Full NMC. For the 372897410th time.
Fact of the matter is that is just a formality. How many situations have you seen in recent years where once a player with a NT/MC finds out that a team is trying to move him, he just waives it? 9 times out of 10 he won't want to stay on a team that doesn't want him anymore. I think Chris has enough pride that if it comes to that, he'll provide little resistance.

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12-01-2009, 07:47 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by donGjohnson View Post
With Gabby and Lundqvist, you can't go full on tank. I'd be thinking of moving assets on the cheap, and finally waiving Redden or Drury. Enough is enough, I'm starting to feel bad for you guys because of it!
True. We may still be officially in the playoff hunt with 3 weeks to go which will be more a testimony to Gaborik and Lundqvist than anything else. Too much of the team is disfunctional though and the D is very young. The solution is to get past or around the awful contractual mistakes of a couple years ago and to stay with their young even if it's very painful to watch right now. If the team collapses though the pressure will be on to make quick fixes which may be very damaging in the long term. They need to assess the future core group of the team and stay with them. As an example a guy like Higgins (though not old) is not necessarily a part of that group. He has to prove he's worthy of another contract--scoring chances aside if he can't start burying some of them there's no way I'd bring him back next year.

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12-01-2009, 07:58 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by pierreification View Post
Fact of the matter is that is just a formality. How many situations have you seen in recent years where once a player with a NT/MC finds out that a team is trying to move him, he just waives it? 9 times out of 10 he won't want to stay on a team that doesn't want him anymore. I think Chris has enough pride that if it comes to that, he'll provide little resistance.
Even if he is waived, what then? Drury isn't going to sit in the minors for the last two years of his contract, and nobody is going to take him for 2.5 years at $7MM per year. It's not as if his contract is seriously front-loaded like Rozsivals is. The only option is to buy him out, which is dumb, or to put him on reentry waivers and hope he's claimed. But even then, is it worth the 3.5M in cap space we'd gain? Sure, that will help us lock up Staal next season, but beyond that, what would we gain from it?

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12-01-2009, 08:07 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
Even if he is waived, what then? Drury isn't going to sit in the minors for the last two years of his contract, and nobody is going to take him for 2.5 years at $7MM per year. It's not as if his contract is seriously front-loaded like Rozsivals is. The only option is to buy him out, which is dumb, or to put him on reentry waivers and hope he's claimed. But even then, is it worth the 3.5M in cap space we'd gain? Sure, that will help us lock up Staal next season, but beyond that, what would we gain from it?
I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with the idea of waiving him, just saying it's not impossible like people seem to think.

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12-01-2009, 08:09 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by pierreification View Post
I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with the idea of waiving him, just saying it's not impossible like people seem to think.
Fair enough. I just think it's a pipe dream given the reasons I listed. If Drury rebounds from his slow start, some team is going to have a hell of a value for $3.5MM per year for the next couple years. Do we really need the cap space that badly that we would risk a conference, or even a division rival, winding up with that?

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12-01-2009, 08:18 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by donGjohnson View Post
I'm an objective observer, 16 yr TB fan and sat behind Torts on many occasions. To be honest, almost no system would work with this current roster. Drury and Redden are, well, handicapping this whole franchise. But on the bright side, with the youth of Anisimov, Parenteau, MDZ, Sanguinetti etc, the near future is very bright. Sign one top 6 playmaker in the offseason, a defensive specialist who's great on faceoffs and presuming the young guys develop as they should in the course of a year, this roster will be A ok next season. No need to break into a major panic. Another thing to remember about the "Torts system" is the epic need for speedy offensive defenseman and forwards who win a ton of faceoffs in the neutral zone, to stem the number of odd-man rushes, and play shutdown defense. This is where a guy like Pahlsson or Sillinger would look like a god.
I think that's a great assessment. With the loss of Betts, an addition of Sammy "Don't call me Henry" Pahlsson, would be an amazing, and extremely needed addition.

Sather- Do your job

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12-01-2009, 08:49 AM
  #87
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I have seen more Rangers defensemen fail to step up and take away a shooting lane in the last two games against Pittsburgh than I have in years prior.
It's the heart of the matter and exacerbated by swapping Redden for someone as inexperienced as Sanguinetti.

Not to pick on Bobby, but his coverage was non-existent last night and definitely responsible for at least one goal. If he doesn't let Rupp walk in front off the face off, there is no goal, it's a different game strategically, mentally, emotionally.

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12-01-2009, 09:31 AM
  #88
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I think there are honestly a good amount of people the fail to realize the importance of Wade Redden to this team.

Even though it sounds funny.

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12-01-2009, 09:31 AM
  #89
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I like Torts...But hes not the right fit for this team...My thread was locked up, and I was trying to emphasize the same points here. Its easy to get rid of the coach then a group of players to mesh into a system.
Torts I bet is a great leader on a veteran and good squad with experience playing together. The overly aggressive style has killed this rangers team because they dont score much.

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12-01-2009, 09:36 AM
  #90
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I like Torts...But hes not the right fit for this team...My thread was locked up, and I was trying to emphasize the same points here. Its easy to get rid of the coach then a group of players to mesh into a system.
Torts I bet is a great leader on a veteran and good squad with experience playing together. The overly aggressive style has killed this rangers team because they dont score much.
He is more of a leader/motivator/general than a hockey mind. Thats for sure.

We could use a hockey mind with this bunch. Trouble is, we had one and everyone wanted him gone because they falsely believed this team was ready to "take the next step"

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12-01-2009, 11:51 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Levitate View Post
The flip side is that this team probably isn't good enough to try to play super defensively either. Last years team wasn't.

If this team can't play Torts system, they likely can't play a more defensive system and survive either. To be honest, it's a matter of talent and players living up to their billing more than it is a system problem.

If Callahan, Higgins, Drury, Kotalik, Lisin, Avery to an extent (I think he's been looking better lately), and Dubinsky could score with any kind of regularity, then this team is immediately much, much better. Out of all of those players, you think at least one or two would be "on" at any given time, even if the other are "off". But no, they've mostly just been off the entire season, and they've been given every opportunity to do well and none of them have taken it.
Good post. Recently I started thinking that this team may not even be talented off to pull off a defensive scheme.

Higgins and Anisimov, 2 players that are supposed to be competent defensively and play on the PK, were a combined -7 last night. Drury is a -7 for the year and Cally is a -6. Not only have Higgins, Drury, and Cally underperformed offensively, but they are underperforming defensively as well.

Some of these players just can't hit the net at all. I'm not even sure how to go about correcting that problem. Higgins gets at least 2 scoring chances per game and rips it wide, Cally as well. No system or coach are going to get these guys to shoot accurately.

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12-01-2009, 12:00 PM
  #92
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Again, there is no secondary scoring. If Kotalik was such a "hit," why does Edmonton let him go? After all, they are, and always have been a run & gun team. As a matter of fact, so has Buffalo.

Lindsay Ruff (who is probably the best coach in the NHL) obviously does not think Kotalik is a 3 million dollar a year player. Again, idc about his hard slap shot from the point on the PP. His five on five is terrible and his plus/minus shows it. Even Malik was a +67 while he was here.

We have guys who can shoot the puck just fine on the point. It's more about getting rebounds (like Gaborik did last night) and getting tenacious bodies in front of the net to wear out "D" men, deflect shots and block the goal tender's ability to find the puck.

Antropov would have been terrific for this!!Instead he's playing great hockey in Atlanta with Kovalchuk (who praised Don Waddell for bringing him south, when he could have been here with Gaborik).

I think Antropov, Anisimov (2 big bodies with skill) and either Dubinsky, Callahan or Boyle would have at least given us a solid back to back first and second line. Also, I'm sure Antropov understands Russian as much as Zherdev of the Ukraine (how far from Russia is Kazakhstan any way?), and he speaks English quite well. Both players would want to get their games going in NY. Makes for a good bond on the road. A rookie out to prove he belongs and Antropov looking to prove himself while making a fresh new start in NY.

So Ruff and/or Regier thought that just a second round draft pick was all the team needed to send Kotalik to Alberta.They were right. Edmonton took a chance and gave up a 2nd rounder. But that's it? You may not even get a Korpikoski out of that.

In comparing last year's team to this year's team:

Last year we did not have a great top line, but (especially toward the end) we did have a lot of secondary scoring. For example:

Antropov > Kotalik (Nik is finally putting it together after a change of scenery which, was long over due).

Gomez = Prospal (looking at their overall stats, I'd say each player is about as good as the other. Prospal plays great for Tortorella. He's a "Torts" guy. ) Gomez was also the perfect play maker for guys like Nas, Callahan, Dawes and Prucha. Gomez has more speed. Prospal is more physical.

Zherdev > Higgins (offensively Zherdev and Naslund both are much more talented than Higgins. It showed on the stat sheet. Zherdev would have been racking up the assists and had been the perfect second punch after Gaborik's first).

Naslund > Lisin (I'm sure we all agree with this? As well as the rest of the players I had just mentioned). Without even bringing back either "Nik," who wouldn't want to see Naslund finish out his contract here in NY and rack up the same amount of goals as Kotalik and probably even more.

Dubinsky (we need him back). Had him last year although he didn't progress much until the end of the season.

Most of the NHL < Gaborik (Gaborik is a tremendous goal scorer. Right up there with anyone. Ovechkin is the only guy i would prefer over him. Without the groin issues, i take Gaborik over anyone. Or flip a coin between Alex "O" and him).

Two way forward play:

Did it get any better than having Betts and Sjostrom out there killing penalties. No way. We were number one on the PK!

Betts/Sjostrom > Boyle/Voros on that fourth line.

Our defense:

Both experience and physical play:

Last year's team > this year's team. (Sather still made a mistake. I said it back then. I wanted both Kurt Sauer and Mike Commmodore over softies like Rozsival and to a lesser extent, Redden). After all, maybe that's why people are questioning Lundqvist's play. He's got weakness in front of him.

Offense.

Last year's team < this year's team (But I believe that our G.A. average is much higher because of the patience we need to have with MDZ, Gilroy, and Sangs as far as taking care of our own zone).

Goal tending

Same. Except I hope Lundqvist doesn't demand a trade to a winner.

I don't blame him. Look at his overall G.A.A. compared to Richter's immortalized # which, is hanging from the rafters from now until forever.

Anyone think Richter had a slightly better team in front of him with 5 hall of famer's in the lineup (Messier, Gartner, Leetch, Larmer who imo should be in if Anderson goes, and I think Zubov is deserving. Look at his stats compared to Scott Neidermayer's and make your own decision). And not to mention a stay at home kick ass defense man in "Beuk," a potential 1,000 pt player, 400 career goal scorer and the kid who's 1994 playoff run was "Peter Forsberg like." I'm speaking of Kovalev. And of course, a young 4th liner turned NYR great (Graves).

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12-01-2009, 12:10 PM
  #93
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Dubinsky was the projected first line center. They really need him. Parenteau is playing better than Kotalik or Lisin? What are they doing with Kotalik? What are they doing to Lisin?

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12-01-2009, 01:00 PM
  #94
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Some excellent posts in this thread, including the ones from the Penguin and TB fan. I pretty much agree with these three key points...

1)We don't have the talent to play this offensive system successfully.
2)We don't have the talent to be a serious cup contender playing any system.
3)We will never be a serious cup contender until we get out from under the Drury, Redden and Rozy contracts.

So the question is, what do we do right now with the hand dealt to us? How does this current team play the best hockey they are capable of? The obvious answer would be to revert back to the defensive minded system we played under Renney and try to win low scoring games leaning on Henrik. We all know that isn't gonna happen though. Since it would be an admission of defeat on Torts and Slats part. Plus, if we started to play a defensive system the obvious question would be "then why is Torts still our coach since there are dozens of other coaches better suited to coach a defensive system."

So the only other option is to change the players. There was a key moment in Torts press conference after our first loss to the Penguins where he essentially said. "The reason I benched Lisin all game is because I didn't have anyone else to put in his place, if i did he would have been a healthy scratch". That to me is a not so subtle statement to Slats. "Get me new players, because these aren't gonna work".

So we have a coach who will live and die by his system no matter how obvious it is that his personnel can't handle it. Combined with a GM who can't get his coach any new players because he has the team pressed to the limits of the cap with his poor UFA signings. So we are in a hockey limbo.

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12-01-2009, 10:09 PM
  #95
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I didn't realize there was a system in place.

I don't think the players realize it either.

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12-01-2009, 10:36 PM
  #96
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I would love for this team to build an actual core (aka: Islanders, Devils) and be an actual team, rather than revamping year after year.

New York (and their fans...that's you) do not have the patience to go through the lumps with a young, NHL farmed, team. We have to revamp asap. If you don't believe me, just look at these silly threads.

As you all know, this team has zero identity.

We have literally no secondary scoring.

Our defensive is utterly weak.

Our goalies (Yeah, you Hank) are not playing up to par.

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12-01-2009, 10:41 PM
  #97
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I would love for this team to build an actual core (aka: Islanders, Devils) and be an actual team, rather than revamping year after year.
Isn't something like 2/3 and sometimes 1/2 of our D homegrown?

You're right, there's no core being built here.

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12-02-2009, 08:44 AM
  #98
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For a team to be successful a GM has to build a team that will succeed under the style of the coach. It's not Torts' fault for the system not working with the roster. It's Sather's fault for not building the team to the system.
My opinion is 180 degrees different from yours.

A GM should NEVER consider his coach when putting together his team because coaches come and go on a near yearly basis while a GM must take a longterm view.

That said, a good coach adjusts to his personnel, not the other way around. So far, Torts has shown himself to be a total buffoon by trying to make his roster play a game they simply are incapable of playing.

Renney either only coaches defensively or he chose to coach that way due to his personnel, but at least he chose the right path for his personnel.

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12-02-2009, 08:58 AM
  #99
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What makes this team so incapable of playing his "system" at this point?

Apparently Callahan, Drury, Avery, and Higgins aren't good enough at forechecking to play this system. They're not good enough at winning battles for pucks to play this system. They're not smart enough to figure out when they need to help their defense and when they should go on offense. Well ****, if those guys aren't good enough to do those simple things that would make a huge difference in Torts' system, then what are they good for? In this case, they're good for nothing.

Those guys should be the definition of pressuring the other team like Tortorella wants his team to do, but they're failing at doing it because of their own efforts. If I have to watch them lose another battle for the puck in the offensive zone I swear I'm going to punch one of them in the face if I ever meet them.

Tortorella's system isn't revolutionary or anything amazing...the players are just playing bad at what has made them successful in the past. That's their own damn fault

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12-02-2009, 09:19 AM
  #100
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Then there are the whispers. Has Tortorella’s confrontational style and head-scratching personnel decisions alienated some players? A few people close to the team are privately suggesting that as possible; naturally, no player has publicly voiced a complaint. Others argue that the personnel simply does not fit the Tortorella blueprint.
http://www.newsday.com/sports/hockey...notes-1.811976

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