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ATD 12 Rene Lecavalier Semi-Final: 1 Detroit Falcons vs 7 Hamilton Bettmans

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Old
11-30-2009, 02:25 PM
  #51
jarek
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Some people appreciate Moose Johnson, but most don't. I'm glad you do, but I still have to convince everyone else
That one hand thing really was an unnecessary tarnish on him that, unfortunately, likely influenced a few opinions of him.

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11-30-2009, 02:49 PM
  #52
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That one hand thing really was an unnecessary tarnish on him that, unfortunately, likely influenced a few opinions of him.
Yeah. He played his entire career with no fingers, so I'm not sure why people still knock him for it.

He was able to be one of the best 2-way left wingers of his era with no fingers.

He was able to be on of the best defensemen of his era with no fingers.

He led his team in play-off scoring with no fingers. He was a 10-time all-star with no fingers (no other defenseman has more All-Stars than fingers ). He rumbled with Newsy Lalonde untill the cops broke it up with no fingers.

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11-30-2009, 03:37 PM
  #53
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Frank Nighbor is better offensively and defensively. Does the fact that Schmidt can beat him up really make him better?
I might be sold on Nighbor, because I do think he is the best defensive forward of all-time. And it would be tough to put together a case that Schmidt is better offensively, too.

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11-30-2009, 03:46 PM
  #54
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I might be sold on Nighbor, because I do think he is the best defensive forward of all-time. And it would be tough to put together a case that Schmidt is better offensively, too.
So if he's better offensively and defensively.....

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11-30-2009, 03:49 PM
  #55
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Schmidt lost three years right in the middle of his prime to serve his country. It's not surprising that his resume took a hit.

Also, it seems absolutely incredible that Dreakmur calls both Vladimir Krutov and Milt Schmidt average first liners. While there may be some possible justification for that, it's completely misleading as a statement about their abilities as hockey players, in both cases.
Yeah, the only reason Lach's resume "looks" better than Schmidt is because he played during the war years, while Schmidt didn't. Nothing against Lach, who is one of the best second line centers in the draft and would be a legit 1st liner. But when they played at exactly the same time, Schmidt was better.

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11-30-2009, 03:59 PM
  #56
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Yeah, the only reason Lach's resume "looks" better than Schmidt is because he played during the war years, while Schmidt didn't. Nothing against Lach, who is one of the best second line centers in the draft and would be a legit 1st liner. But when they played at exactly the same time, Schmidt was better.
Should we apply the same logic to guys like Eric Lindros? Other guys played when he was injured. Those games shouldn't count?

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11-30-2009, 04:22 PM
  #57
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So if he's better offensively and defensively.....
Regardless, that is only one more player. The 13-15 I said earlier, becomes 14-16. Still average. Not approaching 20th. There is a big difference there, and a big dropoff too, IMO.

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11-30-2009, 04:46 PM
  #58
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Regardless, that is only one more player. The 13-15 I said earlier, becomes 14-16. Still average. Not approaching 20th. There is a big difference there, and a big dropoff too, IMO.
Baby steps. I'll get him down where he belongs eventually

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11-30-2009, 04:57 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Should we apply the same logic to guys like Eric Lindros? Other guys played when he was injured. Those games shouldn't count?
Depends how you look at things. I don't really rank guys based on accomplishments, more on height and duration of established level of play. Based on that, Schmidt was still a great hockey player during the war. Other guys whose rankings are more accomplishment-driven may still see serving one's country in war as an exception that is fundamentally different from injuries.

Also, in the ATD context, it certainly seems unlikely that Schmidt will sign up to fight in the middle of the season, unlike Lindros who may get injured.

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11-30-2009, 05:02 PM
  #60
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Depends how you look at things. I don't really rank guys based on accomplishments, more on height and duration of established level of play. Based on that, Schmidt was still a great hockey player during the war. Other guys whose rankings are more accomplishment-driven may still see serving one's country in war as an exception that is fundamentally different from injuries.

Also, in the ATD context, it certainly seems unlikely that Schmidt will sign up to fight in the middle of the season, unlike Lindros who may get injured.
I do.

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11-30-2009, 05:06 PM
  #61
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Depends how you look at things. I don't really rank guys based on accomplishments, more on height and duration of established level of play. Based on that, Schmidt was still a great hockey player during the War.
I you look at it that way, I can see how Schmidt would be ranked 13th-15th.

I personally don't see it that way, but I'm sure a lot of people will.

Either way, even if you have him ranked 13th, he's still a middle-of-the-pack 1st line center.

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11-30-2009, 05:21 PM
  #62
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Depends how you look at things. I don't really rank guys based on accomplishments, more on height and duration of established level of play. Based on that, Schmidt was still a great hockey player during the war. Other guys whose rankings are more accomplishment-driven may still see serving one's country in war as an exception that is fundamentally different from injuries.

Also, in the ATD context, it certainly seems unlikely that Schmidt will sign up to fight in the middle of the season, unlike Lindros who may get injured.
Agree with 70s. Schmdit was just as good before the war as he was after the war, so we certainly can extrapolate without much difficulty. Ability to stay healthy is a skill that makes someone a better player. Ability to avoid going off to war... that doesn't even make sense when I try to phrase it like that.

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11-30-2009, 05:27 PM
  #63
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Agree with 70s. Schmdit was just as good before the war as he was after the war, so we certainly can extrapolate without much difficulty. Ability to stay healthy is a skill that makes someone a better player. Ability to avoid going off to war... that doesn't even make sense when I try to phrase it like that.
that's exactly the way I look at it and it applies to several players besides Schmidt including Max Bentley and Roy Conacher.

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11-30-2009, 05:39 PM
  #64
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Agree with 70s. Schmdit was just as good before the war as he was after the war, so we certainly can extrapolate without much difficulty. Ability to stay healthy is a skill that makes someone a better player. Ability to avoid going off to war... that doesn't even make sense when I try to phrase it like that.
That is, the ability to be a member of the Habs when hockey players left for war, and getting a nice war-related job thanks to Tommy Gorman's hard work.

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that's exactly the way I look at it and it applies to several players besides Schmidt including Max Bentley and Roy Conacher.
Conacher, yes, but Bentley is different altogether. He didn't go to war. So what he did during the war years, with guys like Schmidt, Dumart, and Conacher gone, does need to be looked at differently. He would have likely been lower in the scoring race and lower and hart voting, and things like that.

If we were to ignore that when evaluating Bentley, it would be the same thing as downplaying Schmidt, Dumart and Conacher each slightly, as in saying that they weren't likely to have outperformed him if they were still there.

It's a two-way street, is what I'm trying to say.

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11-30-2009, 05:46 PM
  #65
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That is, the ability to be a member of the Habs when hockey players left for war, and getting a nice war-related job thanks to Tommy Gorman's hard work.



Conacher, yes, but Bentley is different altogether. He didn't go to war. So what he did during the war years, with guys like Schmidt, Dumart, and Conacher gone, does need to be looked at differently. He would have likely been lower in the scoring race and lower and hart voting, and things like that.

If we were to ignore that when evaluating Bentley, it would be the same thing as downplaying Schmidt, Dumart and Conacher each slightly, as in saying that they weren't likely to have outperformed him if they were still there.

It's a two-way street, is what I'm trying to say.
What are you talking about? Max Bentley spent 2 years in the service (43-44, 44-45).

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11-30-2009, 05:54 PM
  #66
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What are you talking about? Max Bentley spent 2 years in the service (43-44, 44-45).
Uhh, yeah. I don't know who I was thinking of, but it sure wasn't Max Bentley. Sorry about that.

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11-30-2009, 10:35 PM
  #67
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I'm pretty sure Trottier, Esposito, Messier, Sakic, and Cyclone Taylor are far superior to Schmidt. I'd also have Frank Boucher, Syl Apps, Joe Malone, Frank Nighbor, Elmer Lach, Henri Richard, and Steve Yzerman over him.

For me, he's in a group with Bentley, Bill Cowley, and Marcel Dionne.
I'm going to have to lean more towards seventies on this one; Eagle Belfour was definetly taking it a bit too far with Schmidt (although I think he may have been counting Taylor as a rover and not a center, which maye have caused him to exlude Taylor), don't think I'd quite put him that low.

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Baby steps. I'll get him down where he belongs eventually
Although I don't know if you'll ever get him down that far, it's the right mentality to do it in.

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Old
12-01-2009, 05:04 AM
  #68
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I'm going to have to lean more towards seventies on this one; Eagle Belfour was definetly taking it a bit too far with Schmidt (although I think he may have been counting Taylor as a rover and not a center, which maye have caused him to exlude Taylor), don't think I'd quite put him that low.
If I give him credit for his war years (which I'll admit makes a little bit of sense), he jumps Marcel Dionne, Bill Cowley, Joe Malone, and Elmer Lach.... and maybe Henri Richard. Max Bentley only lost 2 war years, so Scmidt jump out of his category too.

For me, he's still behind Boucher, Nighbor, and Yzerman.

As EB said earlier, this Schmidt debate is probably best left for another time. People may differ on a few guys here or there, but I think most people view him as a middle-of-the-pack 1st line center, and that's fair.

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12-01-2009, 07:42 PM
  #69
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I'll make my last arguments before I go through the other threads and make my votes.....


EB has expressed that he wants to use "The Krauts" head-to-head against the Lemieux line, which is perfect for me. That takes his best line out of the offensive equation and still won't shut down my best line. The Krutov-Lemieux-Smith line is going to score - probably a lot - so you're only hope is to slow them down, and out outscore them when they're not on the ice.

With "The Krauts" playing a shut-down role, that leaves your second line to provide your offensive output. The Conacher-Keats-Hyland is actually a very good offensive second line, but I'll be matching the Phillips-Chapman-Russel line to slow them down and hopefully outscore them on the counter-attack.

Certainly, my checking line will shut down the Keats line much more effectively than "The Krauts" will shut down the Lemieux line.



Good luck EB; you built a really good team. I think I built a good team too, so we'll see what happens.

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12-01-2009, 10:32 PM
  #70
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I'll make my last arguments before I go through the other threads and make my votes.....


EB has expressed that he wants to use "The Krauts" head-to-head against the Lemieux line, which is perfect for me. That takes his best line out of the offensive equation and still won't shut down my best line. The Krutov-Lemieux-Smith line is going to score - probably a lot - so you're only hope is to slow them down, and out outscore them when they're not on the ice.

With "The Krauts" playing a shut-down role, that leaves your second line to provide your offensive output. The Conacher-Keats-Hyland is actually a very good offensive second line, but I'll be matching the Phillips-Chapman-Russel line to slow them down and hopefully outscore them on the counter-attack.

Certainly, my checking line will shut down the Keats line much more effectively than "The Krauts" will shut down the Lemieux line.



Good luck EB; you built a really good team. I think I built a good team too, so we'll see what happens.
The Krauts, but especially Milt Schmidt is probably the worst news for Mario Lemieux and his line. Except Bobby Clarke, Milt Schmidt is probably the best center to shadow Mario Lemieux. He's got speed, physical edge and an excellent defensive conscience. Will Mario Lemieux be a force in this serie? Definitely, he's ''Le Magnifique'', but will this first line score a bunch? I don't think so, Lemieux and his linemate will have give their guts on the ice for every scoring chances.

I agree that your third line is a very good one, but they definitely won't outscore a Conacher-Keats-Hyland trio and will definitely will have their hands full with one of the best 2nd line goalscorer in Roy Conacher. On the other hand, my third line will definitely have an easier task to counter your second line. At last, my fourth line with Buddy O'Connor and Harry Oliver could be trouble for the Bettmans.

And that's not to say that I have the best overall group of defenseman, the best goaltender and the best group of coaches (You still havn't answered the many doubts GM's have on Don Cherry as an ATD coach and coaching your team).

It's probably the last time I'll be able to write in this thread; school ntil 11PM tomorrow. I which you good luck in this series, as I already said there's no doubt in my mind you've assembled the best 7th seed team of All ATD's.

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Old
12-01-2009, 11:09 PM
  #71
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And that's not to say that I have the best overall group of defenseman, the best goaltender and the best group of coaches (You still havn't answered the many doubts GM's have on Don Cherry as an ATD coach and coaching your team.
You have the best top-6 defensemen. You also have the best top-4. I'd say, however, that I have the better top-3. Since the top end guys play more, I'm happy with the advantage in that area.

I'm not sure you do have the better goalie. Sawchuk has an amazing start to his career, but after his first 5 or 6 years, he was pretty mediocre. Benedict, on the other hand, was the dominant goalie for his entire peak, which was much longer than Sawchuk's.

As I've said before, Cherry is a mediocre ATD coach. Lucky for me, Herb Brooks is mediocre too. The different, though, is Roger Neilson - he is probably the strongest assistant coach, and he'd probably be as good, or better, than Cherry and Brooks as a head coach. The pair of Cherry and Neilson is actually a pretty strong coaching tandem. Cherry is the bench leader and Neilson is the strategizer (is that a word? )

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12-02-2009, 01:09 AM
  #72
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I found some more Vladimir Krutov info

Euro Cup Scoring(sort of a play-off tournament):
Points - 2nd(1982), 5th(1985), 2nd(1986), 4th(1987), 3rd(1988)
Goals - 1st(1982), 2nd(1985), 5th(1986), 3rd(1987), 3rd(1988)

Izvestia Tournament(similar to World Championship):
3 x Best Forward (1983, 1988, 1989)
Leading Scorer (1985)

RendezVous 87:
Points - 2nd(1987)
Goals - 1st(1987)

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12-02-2009, 11:32 AM
  #73
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I'll be honest: a year ago, when I had Benedict and was going up against Sawchuk, when I compared their playoff histories I sure didn't feel like I was at any sort of a disadvantage. My biggest regret in that series was not going after Sawchuk more and wiping out the supposed advantage my opponent had.

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12-02-2009, 11:37 AM
  #74
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I'll be honest: a year ago, when I had Benedict and was going up against Sawchuk, when I compared their playoff histories I sure didn't feel like I was at any sort of a disadvantage. My biggest regret in that series was not going after Sawchuk more and wiping out the supposed advantage my opponent had.
The more I look at it, the more I start to think that Benedict deserves to be in the Brodeur/Sawchuk/Dryden/Hall tier of NHL goaltenders.

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12-02-2009, 12:37 PM
  #75
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The more I look at it, the more I start to think that Benedict deserves to be in the Brodeur/Sawchuk/Dryden/Hall tier of NHL goaltenders.
I already said it and I'll said it again: Terry Sawchuk is a slight advantage over Clint Benedict. I have Benedict 8th on my All-Time list and Terry Sawchuk #4. Both are very close and this series should be an exciting goaltending challenge.

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