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Old
12-07-2009, 09:57 AM
  #476
CapnCornelius
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Originally Posted by leesmith View Post
And therein is the REAL problem with this team.
Is it too late to bring back Steve Heinze and Lyle Odelein?

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12-07-2009, 02:59 PM
  #477
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I still think Andrew Cassels should come back

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12-07-2009, 03:16 PM
  #478
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I hate to bring it up as another piece of ancient history from that time period, but I was never too keen on how our Captain ascended to that position. One second he didn't want it and the next it was his greatest dream since he was a child. I can't help but feel that Nash may not entirely be comfortable with the position, not unlike his good friend Joe Thornton in Boston. Some guys are just better when they can do their job on the ice and not have to be a leader in the locker room. Is that true of Nash? Well, its something that a real newspaper might ask some questions about.
Agree. I don't think Nash is ready for the C. Nor do I think he's the best choice. H&H wanted him to be. Nash might have felt pressured into it. I have mentioned before that I think Nash will ultimately be best served as "one of the guys".

Perhaps Howson, Hitch, and Nash need to have a talk. I don't think it's a knock on Nash, but some players find the responsiblity too much to handle.

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That's why I said "in a perfect world"

But yeah, it is sad that this team has got rid of everybody who could have been considered to carry Captain status.
RJ maybe. Brass in the future perhaps.

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And therein is the REAL problem with this team.
Accountablity is an issue right now. Coaching staff and leadership group needs to figure it out. We aren't this bad of a team.

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12-07-2009, 03:33 PM
  #479
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So wait... We gave the guy 60-something million over the summer and now we think he's not qualified to be the captain? I thought we couldn't afford to lose him because he's the "face of the franchise".

Great.

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12-07-2009, 03:35 PM
  #480
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So wait... We gave the guy 60-something million over the summer and now we think he's not qualified to be the captain? I thought we couldn't afford to lose him because he's the "face of the franchise".

Great.
two different things....as stated several times, your best player isn't necc captain material...and likewise, the face of the franchise doesn't necc have to be your captain

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12-07-2009, 11:07 PM
  #481
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Y'all get off Rick Nash. The man is by far the best player we have or have ever had, offensively. He leads by raising the damn bar. The other players respect that talent. You follow the one who can beat your ass. It's that simple.

He's not a hand holder. True. And last time that qualification was only necessary if your goal was to be a room mother. We don't need one of those.

RJ Umberger as our Captain?? Really?? Gawd....

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12-07-2009, 11:33 PM
  #482
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RJ Umberger as our Captain?? Really?? Gawd....
So you're saying that RJ does not possess leadership qualities? He's not captain material?

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12-07-2009, 11:42 PM
  #483
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Originally Posted by CBJCougar View Post
Y'all get off Rick Nash. The man is by far the best player we have or have ever had, offensively. He leads by raising the damn bar. The other players respect that talent. You follow the one who can beat your ass. It's that simple.

He's not a hand holder. True. And last time that qualification was only necessary if your goal was to be a room mother. We don't need one of those.

RJ Umberger as our Captain?? Really?? Gawd....
I don't think anyone was knocking his offensive skill, darling, the topic was strictly his leadership skills. We all know he's the best player on the team.

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12-08-2009, 12:10 AM
  #484
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Originally Posted by CBJCougar View Post
Y'all get off Rick Nash. The man is by far the best player we have or have ever had, offensively. He leads by raising the damn bar. The other players respect that talent. You follow the one who can beat your ass. It's that simple.

He's not a hand holder. True. And last time that qualification was only necessary if your goal was to be a room mother. We don't need one of those.

RJ Umberger as our Captain?? Really?? Gawd....
So, let me get your arguments straight:

Hitch doesn't have to motivate the team.

The team's Captain doesn't have to motivate the team.

The buck apparently stops with the footsoldiers, not the leaders. Except of course for anyone deemed cute.

RJ is probably the closest thing to a leader on this team even if he's not devilishly handsome. The guy took some harsh criticism on Sirius XM tonight in an interview in stride with a sense of humor. Unlike some guys (Mason) he didn't take the easy out and throw his teammates under the bus.

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12-08-2009, 12:32 AM
  #485
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Originally Posted by CBJCougar View Post
Y'all get off Rick Nash. The man is by far the best player we have or have ever had, offensively. He leads by raising the damn bar. The other players respect that talent. You follow the one who can beat your ass. It's that simple.

He's not a hand holder. True. And last time that qualification was only necessary if your goal was to be a room mother. We don't need one of those.

RJ Umberger as our Captain?? Really?? Gawd....
What's your problem with RJ? In my estimation Umberger is already a more important leader on this team than Nash is. Nash could (and should) take leadership lessons from both RJ and Modin.

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12-08-2009, 06:02 AM
  #486
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Originally Posted by Ar-too View Post
So wait... We gave the guy 60-something million over the summer and now we think he's not qualified to be the captain? I thought we couldn't afford to lose him because he's the "face of the franchise".

Great.
This is disingenuous and you know it.

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I don't think anyone was knocking his offensive skill, darling, the topic was strictly his leadership skills. We all know he's the best player on the team.
Almost all. But your post is spot-on.

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Old
12-08-2009, 06:36 AM
  #487
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I don't have the energy to re-argue franchise history. I don't expect Howson to fire Hitch ... and I know damn well ownership isn't going to fire Howson. I'm tired of all the crap - ALL the crap. And I very much believe that nothing is going to change all the LOSING until our Captain and his team decide they are ashamed of, and tired of, playing like a bunch of poo piles.
Well put my dear.

I think this is something we can all agree with.

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12-08-2009, 07:55 AM
  #488
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So you're saying that RJ does not possess leadership qualities? He's not captain material?
That's what I'm saying. Do you see an "A" on his chest? Why not?

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Originally Posted by Timeless Winter View Post
I don't think anyone was knocking his offensive skill, darling, the topic was strictly his leadership skills. We all know he's the best player on the team.
Thank you, Darling. Performance is a quality one uses to measure respectability which is vital to the position of Captain.

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Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post
So, let me get your arguments straight:

Hitch doesn't have to motivate the team.

The team's Captain doesn't have to motivate the team.

The buck apparently stops with the footsoldiers, not the leaders. Except of course for anyone deemed cute.

RJ is probably the closest thing to a leader on this team even if he's not devilishly handsome. The guy took some harsh criticism on Sirius XM tonight in an interview in stride with a sense of humor. Unlike some guys (Mason) he didn't take the easy out and throw his teammates under the bus.
Your position is that you want Hitch replaced with some young thing, totally dismissing the fact that Hitch has coached over 1,000 NHL games and won half of them (without your help, I might add. I know: SHOCK!) and think bag skates will motivate the team. One more time, these men are professional athletes. There should be no need to hold their hand and promise them gold stars to get them to perform. Hollywood tells us each team should have a Captain that inspires. Reality is different. Money is involved this time, not school pride. If disappointing the fans in the stands isn't enough to motivate, I doubt some fiery show in the locker room will. Even the Norma Rae bit gets old after a while. What then? Oh yeah...hard work.

Umberger a leader based upon what? So he has a sense of humor? Do you think any of this season is funny? I sure as hell don't. And he took harsh critisizm on XM? Hmm. Imagine that. And BTW, he is cute. Umberger has some of the nicest shoulders ever shown in locker room interviews. Your repeated dismissal of my opinions is amusing though. Carry on. I can take it. I'm not a bandwagon fan who demands a perfect season or else! I'll ride it out and if you'd lighten up a little, might even buy you a beer once you show ID.

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What's your problem with RJ? In my estimation Umberger is already a more important leader on this team than Nash is. Nash could (and should) take leadership lessons from both RJ and Modin.
Believe it or not, I really don't have an issue with RJ. When his name is mentioned nothing stands out in my mind to make him remarkable. I'm not aware of any locker room leadership, only a willingness to be interviewed. RJ is a good player but he does not demonstrate consistancy or superiority in either skill or performance. I don't think Umberger wants the spotlight.

But maybe I'm overlooking something. You tell me. How is Umberger already a more important leader on this team that Nash is? Are you going by his number of assists? No. Goals? No. Repeated invitation by those in the league to represent the sport in the Olympics? No. His All Star Appearances? No. As someone who's knowledge of the sport makes him a good candidate to represent the team as spokesman? No. His ability to remain calm in the face of adversity? Or... here's one for the college kids: Has he ever been on the cover of a video game?? NO! Why is that? What did I miss? Is the whole world ignoring something that CBJ fans see as obvious? Can they use Umberger to pack the stands, move merchandise, respresent the team in a situation on the ice or motivate the team to shine? I'm just asking...

All the afore mentioned attributes can be said of Nash. Rick Nash is the face of our franchise because his talent is proven, his actions do speak louder than his words, he can handle himself in high pressure situations, the team does trust him to represent them fairly, he is respected in the league by both management and the players, he will not ever try to elevate himself or his team through either excuses or by throwing his team under the bus publicly, he is #1 in merchandise sales due to the afore mentioned performance and he handles the media with savy. Any good woman knows to judge a man by what he does, NOT what he says. Rule #1 in the Cougar book: "Prove it."

I understand everyone is frustrated. Do you honestly think the players/coaches/management aren't?? This is not the time to turn on each other.

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12-08-2009, 08:29 AM
  #489
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Originally Posted by CBJCougar View Post

But maybe I'm overlooking something. You tell me. How is Umberger already a more important leader on this team that Nash is? Are you going by his number of assists? No. Goals? No. Repeated invitation by those in the league to represent the sport in the Olympics? No. His All Star Appearances? No. As someone who's knowledge of the sport makes him a good candidate to represent the team as spokesman? No. His ability to remain calm in the face of adversity? Or... here's one for the college kids: Has he ever been on the cover of a video game?? NO! Why is that? What did I miss? Is the whole world ignoring something that CBJ fans see as obvious? Can they use Umberger to pack the stands, move merchandise, respresent the team in a situation on the ice or motivate the team to shine? I'm just asking...

All the afore mentioned attributes can be said of Nash. Rick Nash is the face of our franchise because his talent is proven, his actions do speak louder than his words, he can handle himself in high pressure situations, the team does trust him to represent them fairly, he is respected in the league by both management and the players, he will not ever try to elevate himself or his team through either excuses or by throwing his team under the bus publicly, he is #1 in merchandise sales due to the afore mentioned performance and he handles the media with savy. Any good woman knows to judge a man by what he does, NOT what he says. Rule #1 in the Cougar book: "Prove it."

I understand everyone is frustrated. Do you honestly think the players/coaches/management aren't?? This is not the time to turn on each other.

I think you are using poor criteria for captain material. Umberger is a pretty skilled guy who is very tough and extremely determined on the ice, and based on interviews, I'd guess in the locker room. Captains are usually guys who are solid, focused, determined clutch players who put work way above skill. Guys who can lead because they hold others accountable and hold themselves to a very high standard. On most teams, the captain is not often the best player, nor the "face of the franchise". Look at Lidstrom, Niedermayer, Rob Blake, Chris Clark in Washington (think he's their best player?)

http://www.bluejacketsxtra.com/live/...I.html?sid=101


As far as Olympics invitations, you might want to examine his record as compared with the other forwards invited.
Quote:
Umberger's 26 goals ranked him among the top seven American goal-scorers in the NHL last season. Fourteen of the top 17 were invited to the camp. In all, 19 forwards were invited. Umberger was not. Why?
You might also take a moment to look at his draft history, who drafted him a and how that played out.

Quote:
Team USA general manager Brian Burke likes "truculent" and "pugnacious" players...


Was it personal?

Burke, when he was with the Vancouver Canucks, used the 16th overall pick in the 2001 draft on Umberger. Burke offered Umberger a contract that Umberger felt was unsuitable. A yearlong stalemate ensued.

Burke used the 23rd overall pick in the 2002 draft on Umberger's Ohio State teammate Ryan Kesler and proceeded to sign him for the same money, give or take, offered to Umberger.

The fallout: Umberger lost a year of his hockey life, Burke was criticized when Umberger proved to be a clutch playoff scorer in Philadelphia, and a deep rift developed between Umberger and Kesler -- animosity is too kind to describe the relationship between the two former Buckeyes.

Burke is the general manager, Kesler is a virtual lock to make the national team, and Umberger didn't even get an invitation to orientation camp. Can we connect the dots?
Umberger is exactly the kind of guy who usually is chosen to be a captain in the NHL.

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12-08-2009, 08:47 AM
  #490
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Originally Posted by Double-Shift Lassť View Post
This is disingenuous and you know it.
Maybe slightly tongue-in-cheek, but still. I thought the whole idea of re-signing him for almost the max or whatever was that he was more valuable to us than he was to any other team, so we should pay him more. For me, that's only true if he really is going to be not only the best player, but also the captain, etc. And for me, again, the "face of the franchise" and "captain" were interchangeable last summer when this was being done.

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12-08-2009, 08:52 AM
  #491
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That's what I'm saying. Do you see an "A" on his chest? Why not?
Actually what's your beef with RJ? There are limited number of A's available. Just because he's not currently part of the leadership group doesn't mean he doesn't have leadership skills. Everything I have heard suggests he can and will be a leader as his career progresses.

I have real issues with Nash as the Captain, at this moment in time. Doesn't mean I don't think he's a good player.

I do know that during our slump, RJ tried to carry the team. I haven't even noticed Nash.

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12-08-2009, 09:14 AM
  #492
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Thank you, Darling. Performance is a quality one uses to measure respectability which is vital to the position of Captain.
Yes, which is why Joe Thornton and Patrick Marleau made great captains. Leadership doesn't always have anything to do with on-ice performance. And wearing a letter doesn't make you a leader. Todd Marchant doesn't wear a letter for the Ducks and he's hardly their best player, but ask anyone about his locker room leadership during the Cup run.

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Your position is that you want Hitch replaced with some young thing, totally dismissing the fact that Hitch has coached over 1,000 NHL games and won half of them (without your help, I might add. I know: SHOCK!) and think bag skates will motivate the team.
I've got an idea for those of you still using this as your logic to keep the old man in his job. Let's fire Ken Hitchcock and hire Al Arbour. He's coached 600 more games than Hitch and has won 4 Stanley Cups. He won 58.7% of his games. So, what do you all say? Sounds like the perfect guy to take the reigns from Hitchcock.

As you like to point out Cougar, this is professional sports. And in professional sports, we don't give a hoot about what some guy did for the teams he coached before us, we care about what he's doing with the team he's coaching now. Bill Parcells was a great coach with the Giants. How'd he do with the Dallas Cowboys?

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One more time, these men are professional athletes. There should be no need to hold their hand and promise them gold stars to get them to perform. Hollywood tells us each team should have a Captain that inspires. Reality is different. Money is involved this time, not school pride. If disappointing the fans in the stands isn't enough to motivate, I doubt some fiery show in the locker room will. Even the Norma Rae bit gets old after a while. What then? Oh yeah...hard work.
Spoken like someone who has never played on a team. Professional athletes or not, they are still athletes. If you don't think teams need leadership and coaching, take a good hard look at what this team was like when Gerard Gallant was here.

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. I'm not a bandwagon fan who demands a perfect season or else! I'll ride it out and if you'd lighten up a little, might even buy you a beer once you show ID.
Can the Sister Mary Sunshines of the world come up with something new? Tell me who these bandwagon fans are, hun. Some of us have been here longer than you and will be here long after you are gone. The difference is, we're going to hold the team accountable while we're here. If you prefer to happily eat slop, be my guest. But might I suggest you consider becoming a Leafs fan?


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Believe it or not, I really don't have an issue with RJ. When his name is mentioned nothing stands out in my mind to make him remarkable. I'm not aware of any locker room leadership, only a willingness to be interviewed. RJ is a good player but he does not demonstrate consistancy or superiority in either skill or performance. I don't think Umberger wants the spotlight.
Again, superiority in skill has ZERO to do with leadership. If you want someone to lead by example it should be RJ. The guy put a pad on his back so he could stand in front of the net and take a beating. I heard Rick Nash did something similar--he put a pad on the bench so he can relax when he's not on the ice.

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But maybe I'm overlooking something. You tell me. How is Umberger already a more important leader on this team that Nash is? Are you going by his number of assists? No. Goals? No. Repeated invitation by those in the league to represent the sport in the Olympics? No. His All Star Appearances? No. As someone who's knowledge of the sport makes him a good candidate to represent the team as spokesman? No. His ability to remain calm in the face of adversity? Or... here's one for the college kids: Has he ever been on the cover of a video game?? NO! Why is that? What did I miss? Is the whole world ignoring something that CBJ fans see as obvious? Can they use Umberger to pack the stands, move merchandise, respresent the team in a situation on the ice or motivate the team to shine? I'm just asking...
Yes, folks, video game covers are where its at. By this standard, Craig Rivet, Rod Brind'Amour, Brenden Morrow, Ethan Moreau, Jamie Langenbrunner, Eric Brewer and Chris Clark should not be NHL captains...and yet they are. So, perhaps if you know nothing about how NHL captains are selected typically (i.e. by their teammates and coaches, for their LEADERSHIP) you should pipe down. Rick Nash, on the other hand, seems to have been largely selected for the sort of attributes you list--i.e. to boost marketing. I'd be happier with a lesser known player who can actually lead.

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All the afore mentioned attributes can be said of Nash. Rick Nash is the face of our franchise because his talent is proven, his actions do speak louder than his words, he can handle himself in high pressure situations, the team does trust him to represent them fairly, he is respected in the league by both management and the players, he will not ever try to elevate himself or his team through either excuses or by throwing his team under the bus publicly, he is #1 in merchandise sales due to the afore mentioned performance and he handles the media with savy. Any good woman knows to judge a man by what he does, NOT what he says. Rule #1 in the Cougar book: "Prove it."
Face of the franchise means nothing. Ovechkin is the face of the Caps (if not the league). He's not their captain. Respect for his talent does not have anything to do with leadership. As for throwing team members under the bus, you should go back a couple years to when he through Zherdev under the bus on a Jackets broadcast. As for high pressure situations, what high pressure situations? He's been in one playoff series and had one goal.

If the rule is "Prove it," perhaps you'd like to show us an example of Nash's leadership. Not a bunch of pap about merchandise and stats, but an example of Nash leading the team through adversity since he's become Captain.

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12-08-2009, 09:15 AM
  #493
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Maybe slightly tongue-in-cheek, but still. I thought the whole idea of re-signing him for almost the max or whatever was that he was more valuable to us than he was to any other team, so we should pay him more. For me, that's only true if he really is going to be not only the best player, but also the captain, etc. And for me, again, the "face of the franchise" and "captain" were interchangeable last summer when this was being done.
At this point of Nash's career, he is much more valuable to us rather than some other team. Imagine what the CBJ would look like if Nash left as a free agent getting nothing in return. Howson would have to offer way too much in a trade to get someone of Nashes caliber. Or Howson would have to beg and plead and overspend to to sign a free agent.

As for the captain material, he wasnt ready to become captain. He is learning on the job. Developing into a captain is more like it. I would like to see him develop more of a fire under his ass, and play with that fire, nightly.

At the time of Footes departure, Nash requested the captaincy, when H&H told him they could wait for the following season to name him captain, Nash said he wanted to get started now. He went to Hitch the summer before last for pointers and Hitch gave him some books to read etc.

There really wasnt a better choice at the time of Footes mutiny. And that holds true now, he isnt the rah rah captain that most people associate a captain being. He is and will be the captain. The likelihood of Nash being stripped of the captaincy is equivalant to Hitch being fired, before the season ends.

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12-08-2009, 09:16 AM
  #494
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Um...

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Originally Posted by CBJCougar View Post
That's what I'm saying. Do you see an "A" on his chest? Why not?
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Originally Posted by blahblah View Post
There are limited number of A's available. Just because he's not currently part of the leadership group doesn't mean he doesn't have leadership skills. Everything I have heard suggests he can and will be a leader as his career progresses.
http://www.bluejacketsxtra.com/live/...N.html?sid=101

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Blue Jackets forward Rick Nash, 25, is a mere second-year captain. R.J. Umberger, 27, and Antoine Vermette, 27, are first-year alternate captains.
Quote:
The players who do the most talking behind closed doors are Nash, Umberger, Vermette and second-year alternate captain Rostislav Klesla, 27.
http://bluejackets.nhl.com/club/roster.htm

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RJ Umberger "A"
Jus' sayin'.

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12-08-2009, 09:21 AM
  #495
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Is it too late to bring back Steve Heinze and Lyle Odelein?
Lyle Odelein was a better captain than what we have now. This club is starving for veteran leadership.

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12-08-2009, 09:39 AM
  #496
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Jus' sayin'.
Good catch. I didn't bother to verify. I knew I had read about him somewhere being a leader in the locker room, but I don't really pay attention to who had the A's. I just figued since she was so passionate, she knew who the A's where. I had wondered about it, but was too lazy to bother looking.

Isn't there normally 3 and people get swapped out when we have guys on IR?

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12-08-2009, 09:46 AM
  #497
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Good catch. I didn't bother to verify. I knew I had read about him somewhere being a leader in the locker room, but I don't really pay attention to who had the A's. I just figued since she was so passionate, she knew who the A's where. I had wondered about it, but was too lazy to bother looking.

Isn't there normally 3 and people get swapped out when we have guys on IR?
Just jumping into the fray, bringin' the info.

Rotating A's, yes. There are five guys listed who wear it - Umberger, Vermette, Modin, Klesla and Commodore. I don't wonder if the "spreading the wealth" points out the lack of a specific place for it, so to speak.

Now, if only there was a dedicated thread in which to discuss this leadership stuff...

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12-08-2009, 02:25 PM
  #498
Matthew
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Originally Posted by Double-Shift Lassť View Post
Just jumping into the fray, bringin' the info.

Rotating A's, yes. There are five guys listed who wear it - Umberger, Vermette, Modin, Klesla and Commodore. I don't wonder if the "spreading the wealth" points out the lack of a specific place for it, so to speak.

Now, if only there was a dedicated thread in which to discuss this leadership stuff...
Hasn't Hitch been rotating the A's since day one?

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12-09-2009, 11:31 PM
  #499
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Hasn't Hitch been rotating the A's since day one?
I always sort of thought the heavy A rotation was due to injuries (to guys like Feds, Modin, Peca) and not so much a desire to rotate for rotation's sake. I dunno :shrug:

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12-09-2009, 11:41 PM
  #500
Matthew
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Originally Posted by Pluckfur View Post
I always sort of thought the heavy A rotation was due to injuries (to guys like Feds, Modin, Peca) and not so much a desire to rotate for rotation's sake. I dunno :shrug:
Liked I asked, hasn't Hitch been rotating A's since day 1 due to injury?


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