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Red Fisher Conference Final: (1) Tidewater Sharks vs. (2) New Jersey Swamp Devils

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Old
12-07-2009, 05:09 PM
  #1
God Bless Canada
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Red Fisher Conference Final: (1) Tidewater Sharks vs. (2) New Jersey Swamp Devils

TIDEWATER SHARKS

GM: Hedberg
Coach: Arkady Chernyshev

Michel Goulet - Alex Delvecchio (C) - Jaromir Jagr
Mats Naslund - Pave Datsyuk - Rick Tocchet
Bob Gainey (A) - Pit Lepine - Jerry Toppazzini
Venjamin Alexandrov - Alexander Almetov - Konstantin Loktev
Kris Draper - Bill Guerin

Chris Chelios (A) - Marcel Pronovost
Herb Gardiner - Terry Harper
Graham Drinkwater - Moose Goheen
Bobby Rowe

Tony Esposito
Viktor Konovalenko

PP1
Goulet - Delvecchio - Jagr
Chelios - Gardiner

PP2
Naslund - Datsyuk - Tocchet
Drinkwater - Goheen

PK1
Gainey - Datsyuk
Chelios - Pronovost

PK2
Loktev - Almetov
Harper - Gardiner

Florida Hammerheads (MLD)
Robert McDougall - Normie Himes - Haviland Routh
Dolly Swift - Sergei Babinov
Billy Nicholson


VS


NEW JERSEY SWAMP DEVILS

GM: TheDevilMadeMe
Coach:"Badger" Bob Johnson

Paul Kariya - Joe Malone (A) - Jarome Iginla
Markus Naslund - Aleksandr Maltsev - Ken Hodge, Sr.
Herbie Lewis - Ken Mosdell - Shane Doan
Ryan Walter - Clint Smith - John "Pie" McKenzie
Mel Bridgman - Vladimir Vikulov

Serge Savard (C) - Bobby Orr
Bob Goldham - Art Ross (A)
Viktor Kuzkin (A) - George McNamara
Robyn Regehr

Ed Belfour
Gerry McNeil

Powerplay 1: Paul Kariya - Joe Malone - Jarome Iginla - Aleksandr Maltsev - Bobby Orr
Powerplay 2: Markus Naslund - Clint Smith - John McKenzie - Viktor Kuzkin - Art Ross
Penalty Kill 1: Ken Mosdell - Herbie Lewis - Serge Savard - Bobby Orr
Penalty Kill 2: Ryan Walter - Shane Doan - Bob Goldham - George McNamara

Callups:
F: Sergei Brylin, Scott Gomez, Tony Amonte
D: Zinetula Bilyaletdinov, Jason Smith
G: Kirk McLean

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12-08-2009, 01:39 AM
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Here are links to the profiles I made of my players:

New Jersey Swamp Devils
Extras: Mel Bridgman(C/LW), Vladimir Vikulov(RW), Robyn Regehr (D)

Call Ups: Sergei Brylin, Scott Gomez, Tony Amonte, Zinetula Bilyaletdinov, Jason Smith, Kirk McLean

________
Matchups:

Once again, Savard-Orr will be playing primarily with the Malone line at even strength.

For key defensive zone faceoffs, Savard-Orr will back up the Mosdell line.

Goldham-Ross will be the preferred pair to play with the Maltsev line - backing it up with their toughness.

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12-08-2009, 06:36 AM
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I'll do the rest of it later. But for now, here is how I would compare the forward lines:

First line = Advantage Tidewater.

Jagr > Malone. Jagr provides lots of offense and nothing else. Malone provides lots of goals, and we don't know much about what else he provides (though he did captain 2 early Cup winners). Jagr is a Top 25 player all-time (he would be Top 15 if it wasn't for the sulking years and a few playoffs where he looked like he didn't care). Malone is 30-50.

Delvecchio > Iginla, at least in career value. In some ways, Delvecchio is like the Ron Francis of the O6 era. 11 times top 10 in points, but never higher than 4th. Slightly better playmaker than goal scorer (okay, that isn't like Francis who is a much better playmaker). Iginla has had a couple of years better than Delvecchio's best, but it's hard to ignore Delvecchio's career value. Iginla gets extra points for grit, while Delvecchio is a Lady Byng winner who gets extra points for two-way play.

Kariya = Goulet. Goulet was more of a goalscorer, Kariya had a more balanced offense. Kariya's Top 10 in points are 3, 3, 4, 7. Goulet's are 3, 8, 8, 9. Both had relatively short primes. I'll say it's even, despite Kariya's better peak scoring finishes, because Goulet had a couple of good playoff runs.

______________

Second line = Advantage New Jersey

Naslund = Naslund. Markus has the better peak by a good margin, but Mats' much longer period of productivity and a couple of good playoff runs probably even it out.

Hodge = Tocchet. Once again, the NJ player has a better peak (Hodge is a 2 time 1st Team All Star), but the Tidewater player makes up for it in career value.

Maltsev > Datsyuk. This is where NJ has the advantage. Maltsev is the best player on either team's second line, and I don't think it's that close. Datsyuk is the best defensive player on either second line, but I don't think it makes up for the gap Maltsev has in either offense or career value. Oh and for those criticizing Naslund's playoff record, well, I'll just say it's a good thing for Datsyuk that he plays on the same team as Lidstrom and Zetterberg. I'd personally feel a lot better with Datsyuk as a third liner than a second liner.

____________

Third line = Slight Advantage Tidewater. Tidewater's 3rd line is better defensively, and NJ's is a better offensively.

Herbie Lewis = Bob Gainey. Lewis was eventually inducted into the HOF, mostly for his defensive play. Gainey is Gainey, so he still gets the edge defensively. Lewis is much better offensively though - twice Top 10 in points, and 2 4th place finishes in assists. Gainey's career high is 47 points, in the high scoring late 70s/ early 80s. Gainey is better as a defensive specialist, while Lewis is better as a two-way guy.


Mosdell = Lepine. Mosdell is better offensively - Top 10 in points twice, top 10 in goals twice. He did most of his scoring at even strength. Lepine has 3 10th place finishes in goals, but never Top 10 in points. Pit Lepine "won" 2 retro Selkes, which is worth... something. Though it should be noted that Joe Klukay and Marty Pavelich "won" every retro Selke during Mosdell's prime. Still, I suppose I'll give a slight defensive edge to Lepine, which makes up for the slight offensive edge that Mosdell gets.

Toppazzini > Doan. Shane Doan is very good defensively and works well as a complementary big winger on a checking unit (as he probably will in the Olympics for Canada). But he's probably not as good defensively as Toppazzini. They are pretty even offensively. This is where Tidewater's slight advantage comes from.

Fourth lines = hard to compare, but NJ likely has an advantage in talent.

Tidewater obviously gets the chemistry advantage. Talent, though? He has three guys who played for the USSR, back when Canadian amateur teams could skate with the Soviets at the Olympics. Clint Smith and John McKenzie especially should give NJ a more skilled 4th line, at least.

I'm not sure how Tidewater plans to use their 4th line, but as in previous series, NJ's 4th line will take some shifts against Tidewater's 1st, especially early in the game. They will be backed up by Savard-Orr when they do so. This allows John McKenzie to take shots early on at Tidewater's talented 1st liners. Since Jagr skates all over the ice, McKenzie will be able to target him from time to time, despite playing on opposite wings.

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12-08-2009, 12:32 PM
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You are really underrating Datsyuk here, Maltsev is better offensive player, but not by that much and Datsyuk is far superior defensively.

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12-08-2009, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Reds4Life View Post
You are really underrating Datsyuk here, Maltsev is better offensive player, but not by that much and Datsyuk is far superior defensively.
By the time Datsyuk's career is over, he'll probably be better than Maltsev, but he isn't yet. He's only played 4 real seasons - 2 great and 2 good.

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12-08-2009, 01:15 PM
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By the time Datsyuk's career is over, he'll probably be better than Maltsev, but he isn't yet. He's only played 4 real seasons - 2 great and 2 good.
That's a pretty tall order. Maltsev's record in the Soviet league is very comparible to Kharlamov and Mikhailov, and his record in international play is almost as good.

Datsyuk COULD end up better I suppose, but I doubt he will, if for no other reason than he was a late bloomer. And anyway, if VI were here, he'd say that "coulds have no place in the ATD."

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12-08-2009, 01:15 PM
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You are really underrating Datsyuk here, Maltsev is better offensive player, but not by that much and Datsyuk is far superior defensively.
Your assessments aren't exactly wrong, but Datsyuk still needs to "build up" a resume of being better defensively and possibly offensively. It can't just be automatic.

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12-08-2009, 01:28 PM
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Your assessments aren't exactly wrong, but Datsyuk still needs to "build up" a resume of being better defensively and possibly offensively. It can't just be automatic.
2 Selke trophies and 4 Lady Byng trophies = clean and great defensive player. PPG player in the NHL. His resume is pretty solid.

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12-08-2009, 01:33 PM
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Your assessments aren't exactly wrong, but Datsyuk still needs to "build up" a resume of being better defensively and possibly offensively. It can't just be automatic.
I don't think it's a stretch to claim Datsyuk is better defensively. He has two Selke trophies, matched only by Sergei Fedorov among scoring centres while I do not see much on Maltsev's defensive play.

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12-08-2009, 01:44 PM
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That's a pretty tall order. Maltsev's record in the Soviet league is very comparible to Kharlamov and Mikhailov, and his record in international play is almost as good.

Datsyuk COULD end up better I suppose, but I doubt he will, if for no other reason than he was a late bloomer. And anyway, if VI were here, he'd say that "coulds have no place in the ATD."
My point was that Dastyuk is not as good as Maltsev.

Maltsev, for me, is a top-10 Russian forward, but not top-5. He's better than Datsyuk, partly, because Datsyuk isn't very strong in an ATD context (yet).

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12-08-2009, 01:48 PM
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Fourth lines = hard to compare, but NJ likely has an advantage in talent.

Tidewater obviously gets the chemistry advantage. Talent, though? He has three guys who played for the USSR, back when Canadian amateur teams could skate with the Soviets at the Olympics. Clint Smith and John McKenzie especially should give NJ a more skilled 4th line, at least.
Comparing eras and leagues is one of the hardest parts of the ATD. The Soviet hockey program managed to reach elite NHL levels by 1972, so by the mid 1960's they were probably producing at least some players who would have been very good at the NHL level. Canada won three bronze medals during the Alexandrov/Almetov/Loktev line's success. Almetov played Canada 19 times, losing only four times, three of them in 1960 (the other was a 1967 exhibition game.)

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12-08-2009, 01:50 PM
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I don't think it's a stretch to claim Datsyuk is better defensively. He has two Selke trophies, matched only by Sergei Fedorov among scoring centres while I do not see much on Maltsev's defensive play.
Two Selkes are nice, and put Datsyuk in Brindamour territory. It's why I would love to have him on a third line if he'd drop that far.

As for his offensive record, he has two great seasons and two very good seasons. Third place in Hart voting once. I think it's an easy comparison to Markus Naslund, who had a 4 year peak himself. In terms of offense, Markus Naslund had the better peak (and therefore career) by a pretty clear margin. And I honestly don't think Datsyuk performed any better in the playoffs as an individual than Markus, but that's a can of worms I probably don't want to get into.

Even given Datsyuk's defensive edge, I'd probably place Markus Naslund higher than him on an all-time list. By the end of his career Datsyuk should be higher, but I'm pretty sure that's meaningless to the ATD, which is about "did," not "probably will."

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12-08-2009, 01:56 PM
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My point was that Dastyuk is not as good as Maltsev.

Maltsev, for me, is a top-10 Russian forward, but not top-5. He's better than Datsyuk, partly, because Datsyuk isn't very strong in an ATD context (yet).
I have:

1. Kharlamov
2. Makarov
3. Firsov
4. Mikhailov
5. Fedorov
6. Maltsev

Who else do you have over Maltsev? He's definitely better than Petrov and almost certainly better than Krutov. I can see Larionov - Maltsev beats him in peak pretty easily, but Larionov had such a long, productive career.

Ovechkin, perhaps, hard to place him quite yet. I wouldn't put him there, yet.

Bure? Maybe if he played longer.

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12-08-2009, 01:57 PM
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Mosdell = Lepine. Mosdell is better offensively - Top 10 in points twice, top 10 in goals twice. He did most of his scoring at even strength. Lepine has 3 10th place finishes in goals, but never Top 10 in points. Pit Lepine "won" 2 retro Selkes, which is worth... something. Though it should be noted that Joe Klukay and Marty Pavelich "won" every retro Selke during Mosdell's prime. Still, I suppose I'll give a slight defensive edge to Lepine, which makes up for the slight offensive edge that Mosdell gets.
I don't know anything in particular about the ice time that Lepine received, but it's likely that he didn't get a lot of power play time either playing behind Morenz, right?

Also, Mosdell's linemates were considerably better than Lepine's during his two big scoring years. I believe he was centering Maurice Richard.

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12-08-2009, 01:59 PM
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Comparing eras and leagues is one of the hardest parts of the ATD. The Soviet hockey program managed to reach elite NHL levels by 1972, so by the mid 1960's they were probably producing at least some players who would have been very good at the NHL level. Canada won three bronze medals during the Alexandrov/Almetov/Loktev line's success. Almetov played Canada 19 times, losing only four times, three of them in 1960 (the other was a 1967 exhibition game.)
I'm not convinced that Soviet hockey ever reached the level of the NHL, and they sure weren't equal in the early 60s.

In 1972, when the Soviets "proved" they were Canada's equal, they did so with many advantages that helped their performances. First, Canada did not have their best players - Bobby Orr was, by far, the best player in the world, and Bobby Hull was still a top-5 player in the world.

In that series, as well as all further international games, the Soviet teams benefited from having a true team. While they did add some non-CSKA players, the majority of the Soviet National teams were very familair with each other, and many had strong chemistry. Even the best Canadian teams they played were a mish-mash of the top Canadian players who played together for a few weeks.

The fact that they lost the Summit Series shows they were not on the same level.

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12-08-2009, 02:03 PM
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I'm not convinced that Soviet hockey ever reached the level of the NHL, and they sure weren't equal in the early 60s.
By no means where they equal overall in the 1960's, but I am suggesting some of their players were.

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12-08-2009, 02:03 PM
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I'm not convinced that Soviet hockey ever reached the level of the NHL, and they sure weren't equal in the early 60s.

In 1972, when the Soviets "proved" they were Canada's equal, they did so with many advantages that helped their performances. First, Canada did not have their best players - Bobby Orr was, by far, the best player in the world, and Bobby Hull was still a top-5 player in the world.

In that series, as well as all further international games, the Soviet teams benefited from having a true team. While they did add some non-CSKA players, the majority of the Soviet National teams were very familair with each other, and many had strong chemistry. Even the best Canadian teams they played were a mish-mash of the top Canadian players who played together for a few weeks.

The fact that they lost the Summit Series shows they were not on the same level.
By the end of the 1970s the Soviets had likely reached Canada's level. I wouldn't say they were better, but they were at least on the same level, with results like the 1979 Challenge Cup and the 1981 Canada Cup. I agree that they probably weren't as close in 1972 as the Summit Series suggests, because of chemistry, conditioning, and injuries.

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12-08-2009, 02:04 PM
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I have:

1. Kharlamov
2. Makarov
3. Firsov
4. Mikhailov
5. Fedorov
6. Maltsev

Who else do you have over Maltsev? He's definitely better than Petrov and almost certainly better than Krutov. I can see Larionov - Maltsev beats him in peak pretty easily, but Larionov had such a long, productive career.

Ovechkin, perhaps, hard to place him quite yet.

Bure? Maybe if he played longer.
I'm only counting Russian players who played their primes in the Soviet league. Fedorov, Mogilny, Bure, etc. played enough in NA that we can compare them to NA players pretty easily.

Kharlamov, Firsov, Maltsev, and Mikhailov are easily the top-4.... but my order changes all the time.

I have Yakushev in 5th.

Maltsev, Patrov, Krutov, Petrov, and Larionov are the rest of the top-10... but I can't figure out the order.

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12-08-2009, 02:05 PM
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By the end of the 1970s the Soviets had likely reached Canada's level. I wouldn't say they were better, but they were at least on the same level, with results like the 1979 Challenge Cup and the 1981 Canada Cup.
Soviet teams had significant advantages in all international competitions.

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12-08-2009, 02:06 PM
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Soviet teams had significant advantages in all international competitions.
Soviet club teams also had good results against NHL teams in the late 70s and early 80s.

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12-08-2009, 02:28 PM
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2 Selke trophies and 4 Lady Byng trophies = clean and great defensive player. PPG player in the NHL. His resume is pretty solid.
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I don't think it's a stretch to claim Datsyuk is better defensively. He has two Selke trophies, matched only by Sergei Fedorov among scoring centres while I do not see much on Maltsev's defensive play.
Yeah, you guys are right, you are just misunderstanding me. Datsyuk is a pretty good ATD defensive forward already; he's just not in the elite category. He and Maltsev are very different players and comparing them in this way doesn't really work. It was a silly time to bring it up, but I'm just making the point that a player can't just "have" the attributes and BOOM, he has the same attributes in the ATD; a track record of using them and having success with them is still important. For example, 5 years ago J-Bo was very young and inexperienced but someone could have drafted him and said "he's the fastest defenseman in the draft" and maybe he is faster than Fedorov ever was, but I'll take Fedorov's "track record" of demonstrated speed any day. 15 years of offensive production is better than 5 when discussing ATD players, and I think 15 years of speed, toughness, or defensive ability should be better than 5 of the same as well, you shouldn't just be able to snap your fingers and say they "have it".

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Two Selkes are nice, and put Datsyuk in Brindamour territory. It's why I would love to have him on a third line if he'd drop that far.

As for his offensive record, he has two great seasons and two very good seasons. Third place in Hart voting once. I think it's an easy comparison to Markus Naslund, who had a 4 year peak himself. In terms of offense, Markus Naslund had the better peak (and therefore career) by a pretty clear margin. And I honestly don't think Datsyuk performed any better in the playoffs as an individual than Markus, but that's a can of worms I probably don't want to get into.

Even given Datsyuk's defensive edge, I'd probably place Markus Naslund higher than him on an all-time list. By the end of his career Datsyuk should be higher, but I'm pretty sure that's meaningless to the ATD, which is about "did," not "probably will."
You are right.

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12-08-2009, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
I'm not convinced that Soviet hockey ever reached the level of the NHL, and they sure weren't equal in the early 60s.

In 1972, when the Soviets "proved" they were Canada's equal, they did so with many advantages that helped their performances. First, Canada did not have their best players - Bobby Orr was, by far, the best player in the world, and Bobby Hull was still a top-5 player in the world.

In that series, as well as all further international games, the Soviet teams benefited from having a true team. While they did add some non-CSKA players, the majority of the Soviet National teams were very familair with each other, and many had strong chemistry. Even the best Canadian teams they played were a mish-mash of the top Canadian players who played together for a few weeks.

The fact that they lost the Summit Series shows they were not on the same level.
I agree with this. But it doesn't mean they weren't very close.

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By the end of the 1970s the Soviets had likely reached Canada's level. I wouldn't say they were better, but they were at least on the same level, with results like the 1979 Challenge Cup and the 1981 Canada Cup. I agree that they probably weren't as close in 1972 as the Summit Series suggests, because of chemistry, conditioning, and injuries.
I don't think they have ever truly reached it. I'd say their level compared to Canada has been on an asymptotic rise since the mid-1940s, chasing us and always getting closer but never quite reaching us.

In the late 1970s, they could probably match us, top-5 for top-5, maybe even top-10 for top-10, and top team for top team, but I can't see their 20th-best or 30th-best player being as good as ours.

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12-08-2009, 02:33 PM
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I'm only counting Russian players who played their primes in the Soviet league. Fedorov, Mogilny, Bure, etc. played enough in NA that we can compare them to NA players pretty easily.

Kharlamov, Firsov, Maltsev, and Mikhailov are easily the top-4.... but my order changes all the time.

I have Yakushev in 5th.

Maltsev, Patrov, Krutov, Petrov, and Larionov are the rest of the top-10... but I can't figure out the order.
Maltsev is that good, eh?

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12-08-2009, 02:34 PM
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Maltsev is that good, eh?
He must mean the other Maltsev, Alexei

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12-08-2009, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Soviet teams had significant advantages in all international competitions.
Yes, and it's called a Tarasov. Russia surpassed the levels of other nations that were playing hockey well before them, mostly thanks to him. Their advantage was that they were better, and he was a large part of that, but you can't hold that against the players, or against Russian hockey in general, when the discussion is regarding what level Russian hockey was at.

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