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Messier to be named GM of team Canada for the 2010 WCs

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Old
12-08-2009, 11:49 AM
  #26
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
One of the biggest reasons those teams sucked was Messier.
Take a look at those lineups again...



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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
First of all, Messier didn't play in THIS NHL. This NHL is a very different league than the pre-lockout version. And even in the NHL he did play in, in his final stint with the Rangers, he was really terrible. He was so bad defensively and so lazy in his own zone...it was just pathetic. As was his very presence.
Really? The last 3 years that he played on the Rangers (all of which were teams that were built badly and didn't make the playoffs) he was a -1, -2, and -3. Hardly indicative of being bad defensively, or "lazy".

And, you know, my point really wasn't about the Rangers team or how badly they went about retooling after the Cup, etc... It was more about the fact that Messier, as a player, did as much as he could do at his age. I challenge you to name more effective centers at ages 41, 42, or 43 than Messier was with the Rangers. I'm not going to argue that it wasn't the wisest move from an organization's point of view, but the guy did as well or better than should've been expected for a dude that old.

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12-08-2009, 11:52 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
But again, the main question is why would you bring anything up from his playing days to suggest he will be a good executive?
I don't think either of us has the faintest clue about how he'll do as an executive. All either of us have to go on is his past as a player and as a leader and I think those attributes speak for themselves.

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12-08-2009, 11:56 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
I don't think either of us has the faintest clue about how he'll do as an executive. All either of us have to go on is his past as a player and as a leader and I think those attributes speak for themselves.
I think if you were to take a look at former greats becoming coaches/GMs/executives throughout history, you'd find there's basically zero correllation between accomplishment as a player and accomplishment as a coach/GM/executive. That's not to say that Messier will be a bad GM, just that what he did as a player does nothing to indicate his ability as a front office type.

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12-08-2009, 11:57 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
I'm not thrilled with the idea that Sather is grooming Messier to take over the job.

Still, I have to think that Mess is intelligent enough to realize that the most successful teams around the league aren't building through free agency.

If Messier can garner the same sort of respect that Sather has amongst NHL GM's, while bringing something of a "New NHL" mentality to the fold, I think he could do well enough. But that all remains to be seen.
I listened to an interview with Mess, on satellite radio.

He sounds pretty adamant about building a team from within.

But who knows.

We can only wait and see what happens.

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Old
12-08-2009, 11:58 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
I don't think either of us has the faintest clue about how he'll do as an executive. All either of us have to go on is his past as a player and as a leader and I think those attributes speak for themselves.
They do. As a hockey player.

Dont you think it'd be better if we brought aboard a hockey mind, whose best moments in hockey actually came as a front office executive? Im almost rooting for a guy I've never heard of to replace Sather. A guy who Ill be pleasantly surprised with when I do some research and realize he was a contributing factor to good hockey decisions over the years.

But as someone else noted, Dolan is too lazy to work on finding such a person.

Besides, the glitz and the glamour associated with the Messier name is too much to pass up. The Rangers franchise has chosen that direction over simple, sound hockey decision making for decades now....and its the single biggest reason why we are stuck in nuetral.

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12-08-2009, 12:01 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post
I think if you were to take a look at former greats becoming coaches/GMs/executives throughout history, you'd find there's basically zero correllation between accomplishment as a player and accomplishment as a coach/GM/executive. That's not to say that Messier will be a bad GM, just that what he did as a player does nothing to indicate his ability as a front office type.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...neral_managers

Have a look at and tell me the % of these guys that were former players.

Now: good to great former players: Wilson, Maloney, Nieuwendyk, Sutter, Holmgren, Snow, Murray, Gainey, etc...

Messier trumps them all as far as "great players" go and I'm not going to get all negative about him because Gretzky failed.

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12-08-2009, 12:04 PM
  #32
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The sooner Messier gets experience, the sooner Sather is gone.

But will Messier be an upgrade over Sather? I don't know.

As long as Dolan is around, the Rangers will always have a big-name GM. He doesn't know any better. Some of the best GMs in this league started out as no-name scouts, such as Ken Holland. I would prefer a low profile GM who has some scouting experience and is familiar with the "new" NHL.

It will be really awkward when Messier is eventually fired. And if he does a bad job, he is in danger of diminishing his legacy as a Ranger. I hope this isn't the second coming of Phil Esposito as GM.

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12-08-2009, 12:28 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...neral_managers

Have a look at and tell me the % of these guys that were former players.

Now: good to great former players: Wilson, Maloney, Nieuwendyk, Sutter, Holmgren, Snow, Murray, Gainey, etc...

Messier trumps them all as far as "great players" go and I'm not going to get all negative about him because Gretzky failed.
If I could put together a list of former players that became general managers and failed, I bet it would contain an equal percentage. Now I have no idea where to locate something like that...

But the list that you linked to only proves my point. There's always a natural tendency to have former players assume leadership positions in the front office--that's not new. But how many of those guys you listed took over for former players? I'm sure it's most. Showing that foro ne reason or another, having players in management is no guarantee for success. I'd say it's 50/50, even if it's an accomplished player.

EDIT: Look at the guys you named...Maloney replaced Gretzky, Snow replaced Milbury (not counting Smith), Holmgren replaced Clarke, Gainey replaced Andre Savard, etc... Certainly there are varying degrees of managerial success in that list...

Again, being a good player doesn't guarantee you'll be a good manager. Far from it.


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Old
12-08-2009, 12:31 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by bobbop View Post
Gretzky is through as a coach. Look at what is happening with the Coyotes right now. Every day that goes by, his coaching history gets dimmer and dimmer.
Logical - yes

Irrelevant - also yes

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12-08-2009, 01:04 PM
  #35
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He's definitely being groomed to be a GM. His job with the Rangers and now this can only lead one to conclude one thing.

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12-08-2009, 01:08 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by DubiSnacks17 View Post
The biggest? Seriously? I guess having a defense with the likes of Sylvain Lefebvre, Vlaidimir Malakhov, Igor Ulanov, Dave Karpa, Steve McKenna, Dale Purinton, Tom Poti, Bryan Berard, Peter Smrek, Cory Cross, Boris Mironov, and others had nothing to do with it?

How about having Mike Dunham as our starting goalie?

Bobby Holik as our #1 center?

and Ron Lowe, Bryan Trottier and Glen Sather as our coaches?
Quote:
Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
Take a look at those lineups again...
Those lineups would have looked a lot different if Mark Messier wasn't on the team. And as sad as it is, he wasn't much more impressive, if at all, than any of those other players.

Quote:
Really? The last 3 years that he played on the Rangers (all of which were teams that were built badly and didn't make the playoffs) he was a -1, -2, and -3. Hardly indicative of being bad defensively, or "lazy".
Yet he wasn't just bad, he was horrendous. Either you didn't watch the games, your memory is playing tricks on you, or you simply don't quite understand what it is you are watching. He was horrible, and it doesn't come easy to me to say that. Or at least it didn't use to. He used to be one of my favorite players. But those 4 years were horse ****, and he's a HUGE reason why.

Quote:
And, you know, my point really wasn't about the Rangers team or how badly they went about retooling after the Cup, etc... It was more about the fact that Messier, as a player, did as much as he could do at his age.
You don't seem to get the point. The BEST thing he could have done for this team at that age was to leave. To NOT be a part of the team.

Quote:
I challenge you to name more effective centers at ages 41, 42, or 43 than Messier was with the Rangers.I'm not going to argue that it wasn't the wisest move from an organization's point of view, but the guy did as well or better than should've been expected for a dude that old.
You make it sound like plenty of players play into their 40s. Few do, and even fewer should, because most, like Messier, aren't very effective at that age.

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12-08-2009, 01:11 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Thats pretty optimistic considering he has next to no executive experience and is currently immersed in a 'fly by the seat of his pants' internship that will eventually land him in control of the New York Rangers.

The guy was a great player, a great leader...no doubt about it. But that was on the ice. Its a whole different game in the executive suite.

But thats the Rangers for you. Have to go with that name brand recognition. If you literally pulled any high-ranking exec out of Detroit's front office, Im pretty sure he'd do a better job than an inexperienced Messier.
I think by stating Mess will do a poor job is quite funny, when we have a current manager who has done nothing but put this team in holes on and off the ice. Tell me how he could be worse.

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12-08-2009, 01:16 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by satrabyk View Post
I think by stating Mess will do a poor job is quite funny, when we have a current manager who has done nothing but put this team in holes on and off the ice. Tell me how he could be worse.
I think the fear is not that he'd be worse, necessarily, but the same...

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12-08-2009, 01:26 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by satrabyk View Post
I think by stating Mess will do a poor job is quite funny, when we have a current manager who has done nothing but put this team in holes on and off the ice. Tell me how he could be worse.
Since 2004, Sather hasnt been a terrible GM.

He massively overpays free agents, but other than that, I dont have any serious problems with him. It just so happens the mistakes of Drury, Redden, and Rozsival are what has this team hamstrung right now.

But I assure you, things could be far, far worse. We've seen it already.

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12-08-2009, 01:26 PM
  #40
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I have my reservations as well about Mess as GM.

I absolutely love him as a player, and a leader and he's the reason in large part for us winning the cup in '94 but I am not so sure whether it is the greatest idea for him to be GM for the following reasons:

1) He is learning from Glen Sather -- who I think 90% of Rangers fans feel is doing a poor job managing our team and has made some huge blunders in his tenure here. Yes he had a relatively good off-season this past summer, but that doesn't automatically negate the years of awful moves and hamstringing contracts he's brought aboard.

2) Mark has no executive experience. He did not go to business school (unless I'm out of the loop), he hasn't been in many decision-making situations before (outside of the ice, mind you) which makes me uneasy.

3) Doesn't have much experience as a coach (unless, again, I'm out of the loop).

-----

Here are the good things:

1) He is the messiah of NYR fans for good reason, and is well-liked.

2) He has demonstrated incredible leadership ability, as well as credibility on and off the ice.

3) He was a player in the NHL for a long time and saw how two successful franchises conducted their business (from a player perspective) -- the Oilers and NYR.

4) He is a very dedicated person and ensures he achieves goals set out in advance.


---

Now, discussion. We all love Wayne Gretzky as a player, as a person, and as an icon. But we all know how well he fared in Phoenix. Great ability and leadership on the ice does not translate to good coaching ability and leadership off the ice necessarily.

It's a bit unfair to cite Gretzky only in this regard because the roster he was working with in Phoenix (lets be serious now) wasn't too talented and you can only get so much out of players.

I fear similar things could happen putting Messier in a position as Gretzky was (granted, not head coach -- rather GM) but I would feel more comfortable knowing Mess had some years as a head coach in the NHL before becoming GM, or having some business experience. This would allow us to see how he would fare before putting him in such an important and crucial position as GM.

I think what should happen is that Jim Schoenfeld become GM of the NYR as soon as possible (gtfo Sather!) and make Mark Messier Assistant GM for at least a year or two. I know JS has a lot on his plate with Hartford as well as coaching NYR defense so effectively Mark and Jim could share the responsibilities so the latter could do his other duties -- all while giving Mess some live experience from someone we know is a competent GM.

What do you guys think?

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Old
12-08-2009, 01:29 PM
  #41
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Didn't Mess advocate for them to trade Zubov? Just saying....

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12-08-2009, 03:21 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Those lineups would have looked a lot different if Mark Messier wasn't on the team. And as sad as it is, he wasn't much more impressive, if at all, than any of those other players.



Yet he wasn't just bad, he was horrendous. Either you didn't watch the games, your memory is playing tricks on you, or you simply don't quite understand what it is you are watching. He was horrible, and it doesn't come easy to me to say that. Or at least it didn't use to. He used to be one of my favorite players. But those 4 years were horse ****, and he's a HUGE reason why.



You don't seem to get the point. The BEST thing he could have done for this team at that age was to leave. To NOT be a part of the team.



You make it sound like plenty of players play into their 40s. Few do, and even fewer should, because most, like Messier, aren't very effective at that age.

Do you think Brendan Shanahan was a good Ranger? Compare Messier's stats in his 2nd stint to Shanahan's. Quite similar and Messier played slightly less per game. Sure, Mess was overpaid (precap era) and well past his prime. He represented MSG's unwillingness to move on from 1994. However, had Messier been 39 and on the post-lockout Rangers and put up the exact same numbers, no one would have against him what some do for his second stint.

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12-08-2009, 03:40 PM
  #43
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Didn't Mess advocate for them to trade Zubov? Just saying....
Wrong.

Soupy Campbell wasn't a big fan of Zubov. Rangers management had some issues with Zubov's toughness. Zubov complained about a sore wrist and had surgery against the wishes of Rangers management.

Quote:
Sergei Zubov was at Lenox Hill Hospital instead of practice today, having a bone chip removed from his left wrist. That decision has been criticized by Ranger management, but Zubov's teammates have little reason to doubt the severity of his injury.

"I don't think Neil Smith knows what he's talking about," said fellow defenseman Brian Leetch, responding to recent comments made by the Rangers' president and general manager concerning Zubov's physical condition. "He's not going to get surgery for no reason, and I think if you ask other guys that have had it, like Adam Graves and Mark Messier, they will tell you that it is very painful."

Last week, Smith called Zubov's condition "a common tennis injury" and added, "But he says he can't shoot and the stick bothers his hand and we have to respect that."
Quote:
After helping the Rangers defeat the Sabres, 4-2, at the Memorial Auditorium on Sunday night, Zubov had even more difficulty drawing sympathy from management. In that game, the defenseman finished with a pair of goals, one coming in the second period on a blazing wrist shot from between the circles and the other on a strong wrist shot in the closing seconds of the contest that traveled the length of the ice and into an open net.

"You see a game like that and you wonder," said Rangers Coach Colin Campbell, who had been trying to get Zubov to put off surgery for another week so that he would miss action during a slower part of the schedule. "I've been overruling Dr. Zubov for about four weeks. He has trouble wristing the puck, if you can believe that."
http://www.nytimes.com/1995/02/28/sp...s-ask-why.html

That is why Zubov was jettisoned out of New York. The Ranger players supported Zubov's decision.

Rangers management thought Zubov was soft.

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