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Old
12-09-2009, 08:14 AM
  #26
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Stevens is gone and I no longer want this team to lose because of coaching...

Lavi does not have to do a lot.. Limit penalties, work on passing and PK, get rid of bad habits, fix 2nd paring Timonen and Coburn particularly coach Coburn (he plays like ****). Wait for Gagne and Betts to come back. Sky is the limit.

This team has so much talent I still have no idea how some people defended or continue to defend Stevens.


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12-09-2009, 08:22 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
I agree with EVERY single point you've made in this entire thread, but I think that point is arguable. Granted our lineup is not currently healthy, but really our offense is minus Knuble and Lupul while plus vanRiemsdyk, Betts, and Laperriere. You can say what you will about production values not adding up for either side, but we're pretty close. The offset is obviously Pronger's offensive abilities along with a capable version of Matt Carle. I think our offense in that regard was better this season than last season (in a perfect world) if you consider Gagne's long-term injuries equal to Briere's last year.

I don't think it's enough to make a difference whichever direction in which you view it.
It's more than that, you're also effectively minus Upshall (his loss was notable last season). Previously, we could trot out three effective scoring lines that could play the puck (when healthy). My largest aggravation this year has been Stevens commitment to three scoring lines while not having the personnel to do that...and, low and behold, this team has enjoyed its best success this season when it has concentrated in two scoring lines and had role lines behind them. You add in the fact that Gagne has basically been AWOL the entire season (he was coming off injury and then playing with an injury), and you're basically looking at having been playing minus Gagne, Knuble, and Lupul of last year's playoff squad.

Betts and Laperierre are nice players, but they are not replacing the skill level of those guys...and JVR is a rookie and he's not quite there yet in terms of full ice presence. He's been quite good in the offensive zone below the circles, but he's got a ways to go elsewhere on the ice as far as consistency (as you'd expect).

But the reality is that Stevens instituted what he was doing when he had Knuble, Lupul, Upshall, and Umberger on this squad with the contingent we have now. A lot has changed since then, but what we're trying to do out there had not.

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12-09-2009, 08:23 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
Stevens is gone and I no longer want this team to lose because of coaching...

Lavi does not have to do a lot.. Limit penalties, work on passing and PK, get rid of bad habits, fix 2nd paring Timonen and Coburn particularly coach Coburn (he plays like ****). Wait for Gagne and Betts to come back. Sky is the limit.

This team has so much talent I still have no idea how some people defended or continue to defend Stevens.
I agree with your list...but that does strike me as a good bit of work. The bad habits alone are going to take a while to work out of this team, IMO.

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12-09-2009, 08:24 AM
  #29
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I'm really interested to see what kind of lines Lavi wants to role with once Gagne, Betts, and Powe are healthy.

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12-09-2009, 08:28 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by jd2210 View Post
I echo many of you that the biggest change I have noticed is puck pursuit of the D men, which I love. Prevent defense doesn't work in the NFL and it doesn't work in the NHL either. Our old style allowed for things for the other team to develop and now they don't as much. There will be some odd man rushes for sure, but there will also be times when pinching kept the puck in the other teams zone. I think Lavvys style won't fit OKT too well and that's part of why he hasn't played.
Well, prevent defense does work in the NHL if you play it effectively as a team. There are various guises of it, but that's why the statistics fall so heavily in the favor of teams that get the first goal, lead after 2, etc.

Our problem was we generally sucked at playing more passive defense, which I think was more a byproduct of our struggles to get out of the defensive zone. However, all the variations of the 1-2-2 are essentially "prevent" defenses if you go passive on the forecheck, and they can be quite effective.

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12-09-2009, 08:30 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by The Inebriator View Post
I'm really interested to see what kind of lines Lavi wants to role with once Gagne, Betts, and Powe are healthy.
I am as well...where he decides to put Giroux is a big deal, both for what his philosophy with the lines will be in the present, and how Giroux is going to develop here. IMO, Giroux should be playing in our top 6...which means he's gotta be a wing.

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12-09-2009, 08:36 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
I am as well...where he decides to put Giroux is a big deal, both for what his philosophy with the lines will be in the present, and how Giroux is going to develop here. IMO, Giroux should be playing in our top 6...which means he's gotta be a wing.
I wouldn't be surprised to see Gagne playing on our 3rd line in a more checking role to be honest. He's going to need to be eased into the lineup at first anyway, and it seems like Laviolette is more a fan of the "stacked" top 6 as well. Perhaps Gagne would skate in JVR's spot either on the PP or at even strength at times as he got up to speed.

I do like Giroux at center, but for this team's needs you are right he needs to be a winger, and last night he looked very comfortable at wing.

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12-09-2009, 08:41 AM
  #33
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I wouldn't be suprised when all of our forwards are healthy to see a trade made for a real 3rd line checking center.

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12-09-2009, 08:45 AM
  #34
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I wouldn't be suprised when all of our forwards are healthy to see a trade made for a real 3rd line checking center.
That's possible, but finding a deal like that might be difficult. There aren't a ton of candidates to be moved that would be worth bringing in.

I could see something like:
Hartnell - Richards - Giroux
JVR - Carter - Briere
Gagne - Pyorala - Powe
Carcillo/Asham - Betts - Laperierre

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12-09-2009, 08:50 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by The Inebriator View Post
That's possible, but finding a deal like that might be difficult. There aren't a ton of candidates to be moved that would be worth bringing in.

I could see something like:
Hartnell - Richards - Giroux
JVR - Carter - Briere
Gagne - Pyorala - Powe
Carcillo/Asham - Betts - Laperierre
I was going to post exactly that. I might actually flip Gagne and JVR. JVR hasn't impressed me of late.

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12-09-2009, 08:50 AM
  #36
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I feel like Pyro is going to start finding the net more consistently. He comes off as one of those guys that seems like he only pots a few every now and again, but when the playoffs hit he becomes a sniper.

I think him and Gagne and Power could become a deadly line for some teams to deal with.

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12-09-2009, 08:55 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
I agree with your list...but that does strike me as a good bit of work. The bad habits alone are going to take a while to work out of this team, IMO.
With Boucher in the net we do not have my choice. We must get better fast.
...and with players we have it should not be hard. We have a lot of skill a lot of positive on this team. We do not have many head cases.

Continue to do what we did against NYI plus limit penalties and we have good chance against Sens.

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12-09-2009, 09:04 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
With Boucher in the net we do not have my choice. We must get better fast.
...and with players we have it should not be hard. We have a lot of skill a lot of positive on this team. We do not have many head cases.

Continue to do what we did against NYI plus limit penalties and we have good chance against Sens.
See, the problem is going to be that so much of the crap is just so damn casual. Pronger lays that hit last night and picks up 2 min...the other night Hartnell just runs into someone at center ice because he wants to...and then you got someone like Briere who has always been a chippy s.o.b. (I remember it with Buffalo, and it didn't get called nearly as much there)... Laviolette has his work cut out getting these guys to stop taking the unnecessary 2 minutes.

The culture of the team is going to take a bit...on the upside, we're already seeing notable changes in how the team plays the puck, so that's a positive.

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12-09-2009, 09:05 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by ToTheNet View Post
I feel like Pyro is going to start finding the net more consistently. He comes off as one of those guys that seems like he only pots a few every now and again, but when the playoffs hit he becomes a sniper.

I think him and Gagne and Power could become a deadly line for some teams to deal with.
I think Pyorala could play well with Gagne...certainly not Richards/Forsberg, but Pyorala makes some nice passes, and Gagne can cash in nice passes.

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12-09-2009, 09:07 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
See, the problem is going to be that so much of the crap is just so damn casual. Pronger lays that hit last night and picks up 2 min...the other night Hartnell just runs into someone at center ice because he wants to...and then you got someone like Briere who has always been a chippy s.o.b. (I remember it with Buffalo, and it didn't get called nearly as much there)... Laviolette has his work cut out getting these guys to stop taking the unnecessary 2 minutes.

The culture of the team is going to take a bit...on the upside, we're already seeing notable changes in how the team plays the puck, so that's a positive.
To play Devil's Advocate a bit... a lot of this team got used to having an amazing PK where they could run around the ice causing merry hell and the team wouldn't really pay for it. We'd kill out the penalty and then score on a PP later on. But now our PK is mediocre at best and the team just isn't used to that. Not that that is a great excuse or anything, but I think it's an explanation.

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12-09-2009, 09:11 AM
  #41
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Call it a hunch or whatever...

But I think Giroux is going to remain inconsistent as a winger during his early career.

I have no basis for that opinion other than speculation and gut feeling really.

I'd personally like to see him get a chance to center Gagne and Powe. That suggests moving Pyorala back to Richards line with Hartnell, but I'd be all for that as well.

I really think we have something special with this team when it's healthy. I'm actually a little annoyed that people are suggesting we let Gagne go to waste on the 3rd line when it seems to be the same people (can't be positive because it was a long time ago) that were suggesting it was absolute blasphemy to let Giroux rot centering Asham and Powe.

Either way. Laviolette + healthy roster = interesting decisions to be made.

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12-09-2009, 09:17 AM
  #42
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I'm actually a little annoyed that people are suggesting we let Gagne go to waste on the 3rd line when
For me its about filling roles on the squad. IF the team is playing well and the top 6 is clicking when Gagne returns I would rather him at least start out on a 3rd line. Gagne is a fantastic defensive player, and having a utility 3rd line that can check would be a big advantage. Not to mention, virtually any 2 players you pair him with are at least going to be competent offensively and he likely will still chip in. He'll still get a ton of PP and PK time as well, where he is good.

Quote:
it seems to be the same people (can't be positive because it was a long time ago) that were suggesting it was absolute blasphemy to let Giroux rot centering Asham and Powe.
Me, no. I like Giroux at center a lot, however, I think its a better fit for this squad for him to play in the top 6 on the wing

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12-09-2009, 09:17 AM
  #43
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Gagne will start on the third line until he gets his legs back

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12-09-2009, 09:20 AM
  #44
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To play Devil's Advocate a bit... a lot of this team got used to having an amazing PK where they could run around the ice causing merry hell and the team wouldn't really pay for it. We'd kill out the penalty and then score on a PP later on. But now our PK is mediocre at best and the team just isn't used to that. Not that that is a great excuse or anything, but I think it's an explanation.
Eh, I think it has less to do with the PK and more to do with the dead-stick coaching we were getting on that front.

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Call it a hunch or whatever...

But I think Giroux is going to remain inconsistent as a winger during his early career.

I have no basis for that opinion other than speculation and gut feeling really.
Odd gut feeling given that he played wing his entire life pretty much prior to coming to Philly...and its the easier position. Wherever he does end up, they need to just leave him there and stop jerking him back and forth.

Quote:
I'd personally like to see him get a chance to center Gagne and Powe. That suggests moving Pyorala back to Richards line with Hartnell, but I'd be all for that as well.

I really think we have something special with this team when it's healthy. I'm actually a little annoyed that people are suggesting we let Gagne go to waste on the 3rd line when it seems to be the same people (can't be positive because it was a long time ago) that were suggesting it was absolute blasphemy to let Giroux rot centering Asham and Powe.

Either way. Laviolette + healthy roster = interesting decisions to be made.
Not a huge fan of Pyorala as a "1st liner"... I also don't like setting up Giroux to develop behind Richards and Carter on the depth chart. If you want/expect him to be more than a 3rd line player with the Flyers, then center isn't the position to develop him at.

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12-09-2009, 09:22 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by The Inebriator View Post
For me its about filling roles on the squad. IF the team is playing well and the top 6 is clicking when Gagne returns I would rather him at least start out on a 3rd line. Gagne is a fantastic defensive player, and having a utility 3rd line that can check would be a big advantage. Not to mention, virtually any 2 players you pair him with are at least going to be competent offensively and he likely will still chip in. He'll still get a ton of PP and PK time as well, where he is good.
Allowing Gagne to get his legs back under him is one thing. I'm not so sure that it wouldn't be more effective, once Gagne is healthy of course, to have Giroux center Pyorala and Powe or something. Let Gagne back in with offensive playmakers.

Don't get me wrong. I love Gagne, but he takes things a whole other level with help around him. Giroux on the other hand has this nasty little habit of making something out of nothing.

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Me, no. I like Giroux at center a lot, however, I think its a better fit for this squad for him to play in the top 6 on the wing
I wasn't suggesting anyone in particular. It's just something I remember being thrown around a lot.

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Odd gut feeling given that he played wing his entire life pretty much prior to coming to Philly...and its the easier position. Wherever he does end up, they need to just leave him there and stop jerking him back and forth.
I agree to an extent about leaving him in one place for a while. As for my gut feeling, it's just that. I don't understand it, but that's the way I feel.

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Not a huge fan of Pyorala as a "1st liner"... I also don't like setting up Giroux to develop behind Richards and Carter on the depth chart. If you want/expect him to be more than a 3rd line player with the Flyers, then center isn't the position to develop him at.
Another good point, but then we're back to the issue of too many forwards/not enough room in the top 6 upon Gagne's return. I like the idea of rolling three scoring lines with whoever - Betts - Lappy on the bottom even if we have to shove Pyorala in the top 9.

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12-09-2009, 09:30 AM
  #46
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Another good point, but then we're back to the issue of too many forwards/not enough room in the top 6 upon Gagne's return. I like the idea of rolling three scoring lines with whoever - Betts - Lappy on the bottom even if we have to shove Pyorala in the top 9.
Pyorala is in the top 9 either way, unless you're going to drop him to the 4th line. I admit, I do not, and have never gotten the concern about putting Gagne on the "3rd line." The guy is an excellent two-way player, and can play that role extremely well. If its about winning games and not padding an individual player's stats, then who cares where different guys are playing?

Additionally...we simply do not have the ability to "roll three scoring lines" without saddling two of 'em with a weak link at forward. Even then, we're not really going to be rolling three lines, as Carter and Richards are going to get their minutes at the expense of the "third line."

This "rolling three lines" thing is a unicorn, it simply never works out in practice, and whoever is on that third line gets shorted minutes.

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12-09-2009, 09:58 AM
  #47
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See, the problem is going to be that so much of the crap is just so damn casual. Pronger lays that hit last night and picks up 2 min...the other night Hartnell just runs into someone at center ice because he wants to...and then you got someone like Briere who has always been a chippy s.o.b. (I remember it with Buffalo, and it didn't get called nearly as much there)... Laviolette has his work cut out getting these guys to stop taking the unnecessary 2 minutes.

The culture of the team is going to take a bit...on the upside, we're already seeing notable changes in how the team plays the puck, so that's a positive.
Well this is when you take a time out or just start yelling in between shifts. Lavi did it yesterday and it worked. I am not sure if I would use my middle finger to point at things and players like Lavi did yesterday but if it works, fine.

Briere is #1 player on our team that will retaliate if he gets hit. He simply does not give a ****. He will retaliate no matter what, even if the game is on the line. Lavi should bench him (for 5min) next time or demote him for a few shifts, if Briere does it again (hopefully Gagne will come back by that time) bench him for a whole period and give a scary look to the rest of the team.

It will work because Lavi is a new head coach and he has different expectations.

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12-09-2009, 10:30 AM
  #48
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Quote:
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Well this is when you take a time out or just start yelling in between shifts. Lavi did it yesterday and it worked. I am not sure if I would use my middle finger to point at things and players like Lavi did yesterday but if it works, fine.
I need to see a video of this, please.

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12-09-2009, 10:35 AM
  #49
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Jon fricking Kalinski, that is all

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12-09-2009, 10:49 AM
  #50
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Jon fricking Kalinski, that is all
What did Kalinski do that everyone is high on him all of a sudden. I don't notice as much when I'm at the game so maybe I missed it?

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