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Old
12-09-2009, 10:50 AM
  #51
stealthelephant
 
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We tend to collapse in our zone. We also tend to chase the puck. Its one thing put pressure on the puck. But it has to be a team effort. Completely pointless for 1-2 people to pursue the puck and force a turnover/less then optimal pass, if the other 3-4 guys on the ice don't move to the right places on the ice to get the puck.

Watch how Detriot played in their zone the past 2 years. If theres a battle on the boards a winger sits high on the boards, usually somewhere around the top half of the circle, and they leave a body or 2 covering the front of the net and between the circles.

If the Detroit defenseman wins the puck battle, he gets a free and easy short pass to his winger on the boards, who can either outlet or carry out.

If the Detroit defenseman loses the puck battle, one of several things happens.

The opposing player can try to send the puck up the near board to his Dman at point, but that probably is getting picked off, because there is a Detroit winger being disciplined, sitting on the board between him and the Dman at point.

The opposing player can try to send the puck all the way around to other board. But the 2nd Dman who is sitting in front of his net should be able to cut this off or the center/other wing can pinch.

The opposing player can try to break to net, where there is a Detroit defender waiting.

The problem with the whole "out number the opposing player in the defensive zone" strategy is that when you don't come out with the puck, somebody is open, and now you have 2 of your players, in close proximity to eachother, not anywhere near the puck anymore. Our points are constantly open because our wingers collapse down and either stand too close to the puck battle or they try to step in and outnumber.

Yes all teams at certain points pick a spot and try to outnumber in the defensive zone to force a turnover or a really bad pass. But the top teams show much better position play, anticipation for where the puck is going to be, and take away the easy passes for opponenents when they do lose puck battles.

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12-09-2009, 10:58 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
What did Kalinski do that everyone is high on him all of a sudden. I don't notice as much when I'm at the game so maybe I missed it?
had some decent moves, worked hard, threw a few hits, was not really out of place.

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Old
12-09-2009, 10:59 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
What did Kalinski do that everyone is high on him all of a sudden. I don't notice as much when I'm at the game so maybe I missed it?
I actually noticed Nodl alot more than Kalinski. Thats just me though.

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Old
12-09-2009, 11:10 AM
  #54
CanadianFlyer88
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Regarding the breakout...

The initial stage isn't very different (if at all) from what the Flyers were doing under Stevens this season. One or two short passes to get the puck to a player (usually the centre) moving with speed in the middle of the ice. Where the breakout has struggled this year with Stevens is in the neutral zone.

The puck support from the defensemen under Lavi is noticeable and has helped prevent rush-ending turnovers that were common under Stevens. Hopefully it continues, as I expect it will, given Lavi's desire to have defensemen move up ice with the forwards, as opposed to trailing behind them like we've seen in the past.

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12-09-2009, 11:18 AM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
Regarding the breakout...

The initial stage isn't very different (if at all) from what the Flyers were doing under Stevens this season. One or two short passes to get the puck to a player (usually the centre) moving with speed in the middle of the ice. Where the breakout has struggled this year with Stevens is in the neutral zone.

The puck support from the defensemen under Lavi is noticeable and has helped prevent rush-ending turnovers that were common under Stevens. Hopefully it continues, as I expect it will, given Lavi's desire to have defensemen move up ice with the forwards, as opposed to trailing behind them like we've seen in the past.
I'll disagree here...the forwards are noticeably deeper with consistency in where they pick up the pass from the D (through a couple games). There's been less D behind net, D in the corner/along halfboards, and forwards somewhere at or beyond the blue line...or forwards just taking off up ice without the puck.

We've also had two forwards in close proximity to one another with greater regularity thus far, which allows the quick release pass with greater consistency when the first check comes.

Basically, they've paid better attention to the gap...which is giving the defense easier/better passes to make within the defensive zone, and also allowing the defense to keep up and be a presence as they move through the neutral zone.

The team under Stevens wasn't a complete disaster, it just wasn't well organized and it wasn't going to work against better teams...remains to be seen what will happen over time with this, both as we improve and teams get tape on us, but there's been some notable stuff.

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12-09-2009, 11:20 AM
  #56
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I still think this aggressive D approach is going to burn us for backbreaking goals, especially in the playoffs.

If our forwards could maintain an effective cycle and win battles on the boards for 60 minutes instead of playing half a game, our defense wouldn't have to full court press pinch.

I almost turned the game off when the Habs scored that 2 on 1. Plus whatever defender that was played it terrible. Laid out too early, and didn't break up the pass or take 1 man out.

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12-09-2009, 11:20 AM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
I actually noticed Nodl alot more than Kalinski. Thats just me though.
Nodl appears to have perfected the...get the puck down into the corner...sort of skate around/control it for a moment...lose the puck...routine.

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12-09-2009, 11:25 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
I'll disagree here...the forwards are noticeably deeper with consistency in where they pick up the pass from the D (through a couple games). There's been less D behind net, D in the corner/along halfboards, and forwards somewhere at or beyond the blue line...or forwards just taking off up ice without the puck.

We've also had two forwards in close proximity to one another with greater regularity thus far, which allows the quick release pass with greater consistency when the first check comes.

Basically, they've paid better attention to the gap...which is giving the defense easier/better passes to make within the defensive zone, and also allowing the defense to keep up and be a presence as they move through the neutral zone.

The team under Stevens wasn't a complete disaster, it just wasn't well organized and it wasn't going to work against better teams...remains to be seen what will happen over time with this, both as we improve and teams get tape on us, but there's been some notable stuff.
You might have something there; that'd certainly help with the consistency of a successful breakout.

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Old
12-09-2009, 11:33 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stealthelephant View Post
I still think this aggressive D approach is going to burn us for backbreaking goals, especially in the playoffs.

If our forwards could maintain an effective cycle and win battles on the boards for 60 minutes instead of playing half a game, our defense wouldn't have to full court press pinch.

I almost turned the game off when the Habs scored that 2 on 1. Plus whatever defender that was played it terrible. Laid out too early, and didn't break up the pass or take 1 man out.
All systems have their pluses and minuses. Having activated and high pressure D will lead to some breaks the other way. However, as you'll note and Clement kept talking about the other night, we are also carrying a forward higher in the zone, which helps protect against odd man breaks to an extent.

It was Coburn on that 2-on-1 and the defense was atrocious. However, a forward (it was the 4th line at the time I'm pretty sure) screwed up on the play as well. Timonen had the puck tied up along the boards and two forwards came to help...and both stayed in front of him, rather than one sliding behind him to defend if the puck squirted out in that direction...it did, and off went the Habs on the odd-man break.

If we can get this all working it's going to put a ton of pressure on opponents as they try to get the puck out of their zone and through the neutral zone...that should result in turnovers and opportunities in the other direction, that will offset the breaks that will go the other direction. Most importantly, we have a D that should be capable of playing this style and making plays. Timonen and Coburn have more than enough skating wheels to cover a lot of ground (which this system requires), and Pronger is Pronger....Carle's strength is in playing an active role in the offensive zone.

It's going to take some time...the forwards are going to have to get used to where everyone is going, as well as the importance of them being responsible as the D comes down the wall to pressure the puck.

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Old
12-09-2009, 11:38 AM
  #60
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I've only been watching hockey analytically for the past 4 years, and I've never played for a serious organization so I'm not gonna act like I'm an expert on what I'm talking about.

But it just seemed to me that Lavi is getting his points of playing agressive on the puck and not making any lazy, stupid, blind passes across to the players very effectively. The first 1.5 periods of the MTL game and also the game last night were prime examples, mostly last night, of how hard he wants the boys to work on making smart and efficient plays.

Someone previously, on the first page, mentioned the sudden lack of "home run" passes through the neutral zone. Eliminating them is one of the key parts in making this team more efficient in all 3 zones.

Also last night, didn't it just seemed like everyone was flying out there? I think the AHL line had one of the best nights I've seen from any of our fourth lines this year.

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Old
12-09-2009, 12:03 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
It's going to take some time...the forwards are going to have to get used to where everyone is going, as well as the importance of them being responsible as the D comes down the wall to pressure the puck.
This is the key. We already saw that Timonen had no problem changing it up and getting in there to disrupt the other team's breakout. Now we just have to make sure that every forward is on the same page and ready to cover on the defensive side of the puck. As you pointed out with that 2-on-1 goal against MTL, Coburn played it horribly (did everything you're not supposed to do on a 2-on-1), but it would have been a bit easier to defend if one of the forwards -- Kalinski, I think -- had been back supporting Timonen.

Once the forwards all buy into it and we play as cohesive 5-man units, the odd-man rushes and defensive breakdowns should start to go away. Thing is, when you play the Pittsburghs and Washingtons, everyone has to be on the same page because both those teams have players who will murder you when given enough opportunities.

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12-09-2009, 12:12 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by chimrichalds18 View Post
Thing is, when you play the Pittsburghs and Washingtons, everyone has to be on the same page because both those teams have players who will murder you when given enough opportunities.
Yea I don't care if you have a forward covering, I don't want a forward trying to do a defenseman's job against Crosby or OV. Recipe for disaster.

So that WAS Coburn who did the epicly bad flop. My initial guess would have been him. But I gave him the benefit of the doubt cause of the AHL guy we called up.(Barious?)

I just can't stand how Coburn plays. He's my new Dan McGillis. Big and strong, but doesn't use his size nearly as well as he should. Some nights he just looks lost. Just content to let opposing forwards skate along the boards and holding them on the perimeter until somebody else cycles off and actually gets the puck so he doesn't have to. Yea he's capable of playing well, but hes soo inconsistent it drives me insane. I don't trust his decision making either.

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12-09-2009, 12:18 PM
  #63
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LMAO......

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Old
12-09-2009, 12:23 PM
  #64
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I don't think Coburn is anything like Dan McGillis. Coburn is not big and strong at all. He's tall and lanky.

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12-09-2009, 12:27 PM
  #65
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I don't think Coburn is anything like Dan McGillis. Coburn is not big and strong at all. He's tall and lanky.
Yea, and for all his positional woes, McGillis would just crush somebody at least once a game. Coburn's lack of playing to his size is more analogous to Therien if anyone.

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12-09-2009, 12:28 PM
  #66
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Someone needs to **** in Coburn's cereal daily. ****er needs to play with an edge.

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12-09-2009, 12:35 PM
  #67
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Pronger should just walk up to Coburn in the locker room and just let him know he doesn't want him to look up to him anymore until he starts *ucking people up.

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12-09-2009, 12:47 PM
  #68
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I think Lavvys style won't fit OKT too well and that's part of why he hasn't played.
Lavy wants the ds to move deep with the puck, so the stay-at-home type will not fit too well into his system. But that's not why OKT hasn't played, right now it's all about winning some games, and keep playing the best pairings. OKT will play some games when things look a little better, also because the coach needs to evaluate him.

But there's something else. The head coach of the Norwegian olympic team doesn't like to see him benched for a long period of time. OKT could be moved over there and play some games with them before the olympics. According to some IOC rules the Flyers will have to release him if he's not going to play here.

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12-09-2009, 01:23 PM
  #69
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OKT will get some time once Timonen needs to rest.

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12-09-2009, 01:42 PM
  #70
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Lavy wants the ds to move deep with the puck, so the stay-at-home type will not fit too well into his system. But that's not why OKT hasn't played, right now it's all about winning some games, and keep playing the best pairings. OKT will play some games when things look a little better, also because the coach needs to evaluate him.

But there's something else. The head coach of the Norwegian olympic team doesn't like to see him benched for a long period of time. OKT could be moved over there and play some games with them before the olympics. According to some IOC rules the Flyers will have to release him if he's not going to play here.
I doubt the IOC has any control over the Flyers' personnel matters.

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12-09-2009, 01:42 PM
  #71
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Coburn has not been the same since either the puck to the face that ended his playoffs a few years ago, or when he came back the next year with a visor

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12-09-2009, 01:44 PM
  #72
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But there's something else. The head coach of the Norwegian olympic team doesn't like to see him benched for a long period of time. OKT could be moved over there and play some games with them before the olympics. According to some IOC rules the Flyers will have to release him if he's not going to play here.
Yes, I'm sure Holmgren is quaking in his boots at the thought of the hockey powerhouse that is Norway being unhappy with him

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12-09-2009, 01:44 PM
  #73
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I doubt the IOC has any control over the Flyers' personnel matters.
It wouldn't be IOC, it would be some rule with IIHF. Even then, I'd have to see said rule in writing before I believed that there was some rule that mandated that NHL teams dress players under NHL contracts.

Quote:
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Coburn has not been the same since either the puck to the face that ended his playoffs a few years ago, or when he came back the next year with a visor
Coburn was quite good the 2nd half of last season, after having been putrid the first half. He's also maintained his offensive game, but he needs tighten up defensively. I'm not sure he'll ever be a good one-on-one guy, but he absolutely can not make an ass of himself defending a 2 on 1.

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12-09-2009, 01:58 PM
  #74
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It wouldn't be IOC, it would be some rule with IIHF. Even then, I'd have to see said rule in writing before I believed that there was some rule that mandated that NHL teams dress players under NHL contracts.
Don't know what rules he talked about, but it's something about players in leagues outside the home country can be called home to get ready for tournaments like the olympics if they don't get enough training where they play. And he said he'd put pressure on the Flyers if nothing happens around OKT.

But I didn't even know about this, I just deliver a message.

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Old
12-09-2009, 01:58 PM
  #75
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I'm not sure he'll ever be a good one-on-one guy
Positioning and playing more physical. There are nights he will just let you work the perimeter, and the only time he'll touch you is if you try to break for the net. He needs to pick spots to close the distance, and physically lean on guys on the boards.

Its one thing to use your body to angle/shoulder a guy off the puck in the corners, he does that, he'll tie you up and try to get the puck loose. Its another to say "the heck with the puck, I'm just going continuously introduce your face to the glass".

Theres a reason people take round about routes to the puck and give Pronger a wide berth. Cause they know what he'll do to you. Pronger knows it doesn't matter if the puck goes by him if the guy who was carrying it its on his ass or being pounded into the boards.

Pronger often does miss hits, but he gets just enough of them that they lose control of the puck. Its SUCH a difference when Pronger just steps up and pushes a guy off the puck and immediately the lose puck is picked up by someone else and cleared then having Coburn just watch and let them drift deep into the zone on boards while the rest of the opposing team sets up in the offensive zone. Thats half the problem. When you are passive 1on1 the rest of the other team is setting up in your zone. Step the hell up on the guy and force him to make a pass/shot before he and his team are ready.

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