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Old
12-09-2009, 07:20 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by orcatown View Post
This is clearly a hiring based on Babych past connection with the club and not on some demonstrated excellence by Babych in the area of player development. Playing in the League does not necessarily mean you can communicate and understand the progressions necessary to develop hockey skills. This is a craft learned by working directly in the field and attending seminars and studying the subject. And this doesn't mean you have been working with kids down at the local rink - it means you work with pros and have demonstrated ability to do so.
Link??

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12-09-2009, 07:25 PM
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I can't really blame Orcatown for being paranoid about alumni hirings, given the history. But at least this is a relatively inconsequential job; it's not liking letting Ron Delorme run the scouting or Stan Smyl coach the farm team. Don Hay is going to have vastly more influence on how Kevin Connauton develops than Babych is.

And I'm amazed that, in two pages of complaints about stupid hiring decisions made because of nepotism, the name Jack McIlhargey hasn't come up yet. Especially now that he's no longer safely on the Flyers' staff and is presumably looking for work.

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12-09-2009, 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Lard_Lad View Post
But at least this is a relatively inconsequential job; it's not liking letting Ron Delorme run the scouting or Stan Smyl coach the farm team.
Bingo. This is a part-time job for a guy who, if he worked with NSWC in any serious, hockey-related capacity, knows how to help develop talent.

One would think that a guy who scored more than 700 points in the NHL as a defenseman would have some wisdom to pass along to other young d-men. Had they hired Murray Baron for this job, I could see the paranoia.

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12-09-2009, 08:42 PM
  #54
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Bingo. This is a part-time job for a guy who, if he worked with NSWC in any serious, hockey-related capacity, knows how to help develop talent.

One would think that a guy who scored more than 700 points in the NHL as a defenseman would have some wisdom to pass along to other young d-men. Had they hired Murray Baron for this job, I could see the paranoia.
Or even worse - Dana Murzyn.

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12-09-2009, 08:42 PM
  #55
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personally I don't see any downside to this, only upside.

I've felt for some time that for a scout/coach/consultant to do a good job, he has to be specialized: forwards, defensemen, or goaltenders. So the idea behind hiring Babych - a consultant focusing on defensemen - makes total sense to me. Its probably not an expensive hire, gets the ball rolling, gives him a chance and you know what, if it doesn't pan out, the cost is minimal. Keep in mind that to hire a "professional" mid-season is probably difficult if not impossible to do because if they're that good, they already have a job.

Also, this is a minor assignment compared to having Smyl coach the Moose.

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12-09-2009, 10:40 PM
  #56
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Or even worse - Dana Murzyn.
Robert Nordmark was unavailable.

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12-09-2009, 10:46 PM
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Robert Nordmark was unavailable.
Assistant Director of Player Personnel for Europe?

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12-09-2009, 11:25 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
Assistant Director of Player Personnel for Europe?
Deputy Assistant Director. He reports to Frantisek Kucera.

Kucera reports to Leif Rohlin, and Rohlin answers to the supreme Grand Poobah, Jiri Bubla, with Jiri Slegr employed as a freelance consultant.


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Old
12-09-2009, 11:31 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by orcatown View Post

Damn are expectations are low - and over the years they have been mostly so. Rather than demanding more from the team, many fans are all too willing to accept any clap trap put out by the organization.


If this was one separate signing then no one is going to object. But it fits a continued pattern that has hurt the team. Over the long term, our scouts have been awful, our player development poor and the team, overall, badly run. If this was a team based in a town without such fervent hockey followers, fans would long ago have given up on the team and the team would have been forced to look to hiring the best person available and not the best connected.

.
Right..... or the team would suck and move...which is generally the more common pattern than what your hyperbolic argument suggests.

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Old
12-10-2009, 03:23 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Lard_Lad View Post
I can't really blame Orcatown for being paranoid about alumni hirings, given the history. But at least this is a relatively inconsequential job; it's not liking letting Ron Delorme run the scouting or Stan Smyl coach the farm team. Don Hay is going to have vastly more influence on how Kevin Connauton develops than Babych is.

And I'm amazed that, in two pages of complaints about stupid hiring decisions made because of nepotism, the name Jack McIlhargey hasn't come up yet. Especially now that he's no longer safely on the Flyers' staff and is presumably looking for work.
It's too bad we have to hope the job is inconsequential. It's too bad that we have to hope that people like Smyl and Delorme don't have too much influence on the team.

But to me this type of hiring just sours the whole organization. Any time you hire or promote incompetency (like bringing in your useless brother-in law into the firm) you breed a bad atmosphere that hurts the situation. Sure you can bury the person somewhere and hope he doesn't do too much damage but it just develops an overall cynical attitude and breeds lack of respect for the whole process.

alternative - Do you honestly think that Babych would have been hired if he didn't have past connections to the team??? And if you think Babych was hired on merit or his player development background credentials then what are those credentials??? And don't say because he was working in and administrative position at the North Shore Winter Club. That hardly qualifies him as person involved in developing pro players. What has he done in the area of skill development that makes him qualified in this area??

As far as regulating the players diet, exercise programs etc... this is already been done by the trainer and others. I thought that was their job. And again what expertise does Babych have in these areas.

Lostmyglasses - are you trying to make the point , that hiring from within is the way to go for an organization? If so, do you defend the job Smyl and Delorme have done? Was it a good idea to hire them?

And what successful organization has Yzerman ran??? Right now he is doing the Olympic team but let's at least wait till the Olympics are over (and maybe till Yzerman has actually run the Red Wings or some other team) before we pass judgement here. And what has Neeley really done??? Beyond this what has Messier done? He has just been hired and not within any of his former teams but for the National team. How does that qualify as an example of hiring from within??? And how does he represent a successful example of this when the team hasn't even been formed yet??? You are all over the map here and frankly senseless.

If you want to support the principle that successful organization hire from within you are going have to come with better examples than these. And for any example you give of this there are many others that show this has not worked. The Montreal Canadiens were virtually ruin by the process and I think you can make a strong case that the Canucks have been badly effected by doing this

To imply (especially with such flimsy examples as Yzerman, Neeley and Messier) that successful NHL franchises have used in-house hiring to become successful is silly.

Ultimately you could say that the hiring of Babych is small potatoes. Just another sop to ex-player who gave the the team good service in his time. But to me, it suggest a continuation of the policy that over the years has hurt the club badly. Maybe Babych is not in an important position and who knows maybe he will work out. But the whole mentality of cronyism is, in the long run, a loser for any organization. I was hoping Gillis was striking out in a new direction but with this hiring that does not seem the case.

In the case of many posters it seems they have little problem with cronyism and, given that, there is little reason for the team worrying about the fans reacting to it. I say too bad we are not more insistent on the team thinking of their fans rather than the needs of alumni.

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12-10-2009, 04:02 AM
  #61
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[QUOTE=orcatown;22573181]
Quote:
alternative - Do you honestly think that Babych would have been hired if he didn't have past connections to the team??? And if you think Babych was hired on merit or his player development background credentials then what are those credentials??? And don't say because he was working in and administrative position at the North Shore Winter Club. That hardly qualifies him as person involved in developing pro players. What has he done in the area of skill development that makes him qualified in this area??
unlike you, I haven't actually seen Babych's resume. But I'll suggest over 1300 NHL games and being involved with minor hockey gives him some experience to draw on. I'm not sure what exactly you think his job will entail.


Quote:
Lostmyglasses - are you trying to make the point , that hiring from within is the way to go for an organization? If so, do you defend the job Smyl and Delorme have done? Was it a good idea to hire them?
Smyl seems to have found a niche with the college scouting.

Quote:
And what successful organization has Yzerman ran??? Right now he is doing the Olympic team but let's at least wait till the Olympics are over (and maybe till Yzerman has actually run the Red Wings or some other team) before we pass judgement here. And what has Neeley really done??? Beyond this what has Messier done? He has just been hired and not within any of his former teams but for the National team. How does that qualify as an example of hiring from within??? And how does he represent a successful example of this when the team hasn't even been formed yet??? You are all over the map here and frankly senseless.
speaking of all over the map and senseless, what team was Babych hired to run again? I thought he was hired as a part time assistant. I agree, it's a terrible move adding 1300 games of actual real-life NHL games to your development knowledge pool.


Quote:
To imply (especially with such flimsy examples as Yzerman, Neeley and Messier) that successful NHL franchises have used in-house hiring to become successful is silly.
I'd bet every single franchise has done it in every single professional league in North America.
Quote:
Ultimately you could say that the hiring of Babych is small potatoes. Just another sop to ex-player who gave the the team good service in his time. But to me, it suggest a continuation of the policy that over the years has hurt the club badly. Maybe Babych is not in an important position and who knows maybe he will work out. But the whole mentality of cronyism is, in the long run, a loser for any organization. I was hoping Gillis was striking out in a new direction but with this hiring that does not seem the case.

In the case of many posters it seems they have little problem with cronyism and, given that, there is little reason for the team worrying about the fans reacting to it. I say too bad we are not more insistent on the team thinking of their fans rather than the needs of alumni.
is it still cronyism if Babych was the best man for the job? you know a lot more than I do on this, who else was available that we should have hired instead? unless, you're upset that Aqualini would shell out to pay a guy with 22 years of know-how to pass on to our prospects when its a position that we don't even need? but no logical canuck fan could possible be upset about something like that,could they?

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12-10-2009, 06:02 AM
  #62
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1. Again. Do you think that Babych would have been hired for the Canucks if he did not have past connections with the club? In your original post you seemed to suggest this was a non-factor. That's the question asked? If you don't want to answer fine -but going on about how many games Babych and his involvement in minor hockey doesn't deal with that

In other words is this an example of cronyism or not???

As to Babych's qualifications - I don't see you providing any specific examples of how Babych is qualified. Playing in the NHL does not mean you are expert in player development nor even a good coach. There is a vast difference b/w playing and being an expert at development. (and this was the job he was hired for) Just because you played does not make you a person who can teach or instruct others in development. Indeed many of the best instructors haven't played a game at the NHL level. Just because a person has driven a car for years doesn't mean they know how to repair a car or communicate to others how to do it. It's like saying a driving instructor just has to be a person who has driven for years. (If you have ever had a parent instructing you how to drive you should know the folly of this idea)

I doubt you know anything at all about Babych's qualifications in the area of player development other than looking up the number of games played and learning from other posters that he had some involvement with minor hockey. You want to prove me wrong then give us some specific information about his qualifications. Maybe you could explain what his involvement in minor hockey exactly was or is.

As a far as what his job entails it has been clearly stated - he is to an assistant to Gagner in the area of player development. He will, according to his own words, monitor and advise prospects. In other words it clearly involves player development. What I'm asking is what specifically about Babych indicates that he is professionally involved in this area. There are people who spend years working in this area and in courses to develop an expertise and a teaching ability to communicate this knowledge to others.

2. So you think Smyl has found a niche as college scout. Based on what??

Walsky has been a bust and seems to be heading for the ECHL if he doesn't improve. (has 1 goal in 25 games) Walsky is 25 and had to show upper level talent quickly to be considered any kind of prospect. At the same time a prospect like Sexton (right out of college) is scoring in the NHL. Did Smyl miss him?? And Oberg has looked bad. After a decent pre-season he has floundered. Right now there has to be serious questions about his ability to physically handle players in his own zone. He has been recently benched for ineffective play. Before you start congratulating Smyl for his job as college scout maybe you should first try to stay abreast of how the people he has brought in are actually doing or at least wait until we have seen how these prospect work out. At the moment it looks like the Canucks may just have wasted contract space. (especially with Walsky). To date Smyl has no proven record as college scout and you saying he has found a niche as college scout is baseless.


3. So you bet every organization hires ex-players. So what you are saying is that every organization indulges in cronyism. My bet is that good organization make sure the key jobs are done by people who have expertise in the area they are required to have it in. Sure they hire ex-players for PR and such but you look at good organizations and you will see they make sure the key positions are covered off.

And in a way, you are admitting that Babych hiring is cronyism. If teams make hiring ex-players a priority then they are indulging in a form of cronyism. So you are really contradicting yourself. On one hand you say that Babych was hired because of his solid credentials (like playing lots of games, involved in minor league hockey) but then you suggest that it should be excused because other teams do the same thing. So what is it - Babych hired because of his expertise in player development or because it is just another example of cronyism (like everyone does it so what's the problem approach) ??

As far as being the best man for the job, I would pick someone with a proven history of player development. Same as I would do for hiring a scout. What is his record? As far as I know Babych has no track record in this area. If you know something more then let's have it. Otherwise you are talking through your hat.

My priority would not be that the player used to play for the team.

In the end, the particular hiring of Babych is probably nothing to get excited about. As lardlad says it is harmless enough. What I am arguing against is the cronyism of the Canucks. I believe this been highly destructive to the organization. If you don't think so then you are welcome to your opinion. However, if you look alone at the drafting by this team with a scouting staff made up of many ex-players then I think you have pause for thought.

I believe that any long time follower of the team has to admit that cronyism (and I think the Babych hiring is an example of this) has hurt this team. That's what I am arguing against.

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12-10-2009, 07:32 AM
  #63
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sorry OT, but I think you're giving too much emphasis here on Babych's ties to the organization here.

As already mentioned, many veteran players find roles with their former clubs... this is not unusual to the Canucks organization. You wrote off Yzerman and Messier as guys for Team Canada, but reality is that both these guys are playing bigger roles with their former teams (Detroit and New York) than Babych is hired to fill in Vancouver.

And the list goes on... Nieuwendyk, Hull, Gainey, Carbonneau (before getting axed), Bossy is with the Isles, Lowe in Edmonton, etc, etc, etc...

and pretty much every one of these guys plays a bigger role for their respective organizations than Babych does in Vancouver.

I don't at all see the problem with this either... if the man is qualified for the job he's filling, then it doesn't matter where he played during his career... and there's no reason to believe that his experience and role with the NSWC does not have him ready to play a mentor role in the development of young defenders in the system. If Babych was hired to be the director of player operations, or a goalie coach, or an assistant GM, you'd have a point here... but by everything I've read about his hiring, he's in place to help mentor young defenders - a position that a guy with his NHL experience, his history as an intelligent defender, and his past position working with young players, all show he's got the right experience for this job.

And again, just because he's a former Canuck doesn't mean he's useless either... if that were the case, we should also fire Gradin while we're at all - a guy conveniently forgotten in your list of former Canucks now working for this organization. Clearly he's an asset to this organization in his role, and there's no reason to think that Babych won't be either at this point.

I just think you're way too consumed with this former Canuck stuff, as if other organizations don't do this - they ALL do this. And in most cases - such as Yzerman, Messier, Nieuwendyk and Bossy - all play much bigger roles for their respective organizations than Babych is asked to do here.

Besides as pitseleh pointed out, this hiring now has 3 former Canucks hired by Gillis - Babych, and a handful of games from Walter and Gagner... hardly cause for concern at this point.

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12-10-2009, 08:40 AM
  #64
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And instead of sticking the hapless Smyl in some place he could do no damage he is given a significant role on the team. There are plenty of veteran scouts who know US college hockey backwards and forwards but the job goes to Smyl, who to my knowledge has had little to do with US college hockey.

Hiring Walter is a minor example but all in all we have seen little change in the organization. Little has been done to disturb the atmosphere of cronyism that is the history of this team.

That's why I see the Babych appointment as significant. Here was another chance to reach out to someone with a demonstrated record of success and base the hiring on merit and not on connections.

I don't see how Babych working with kids at the winter club (and no one has clarified if he actually did much of this - or more likely just did administrative stuff) makes him suitable for NHL position.

I know people will say why get excited - Babych will probably actually do little in the long run so who cares. But to me it is part of bigger picture and has important symbolic importance in suggesting that little has changed in terms of the team's culture.

To me that is where you start with an organization - you establish the culture - one in which incompetence gets noticed and gets punished and one also in which every hiring is based on the merits of the person and not on cronyism. Cronyism is the rot which will destroy any organization. The Canucks have been a prime example of that. At the moment I don't see how Gillis is changing that.

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12-10-2009, 11:20 AM
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Coles notes, anyone?

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12-10-2009, 11:37 AM
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3. So you bet every organization hires ex-players. So what you are saying is that every organization indulges in cronyism. My bet is that good organization make sure the key jobs are done by people who have expertise in the area they are required to have it in. Sure they hire ex-players for PR and such but you look at good organizations and you will see they make sure the key positions are covered off.
You lose the bet.

Cam Neely, Steve Yzerman, Ron Francis all play large roles in their teams management/coaching. None had any kind of experience other than being a player in the NHL.

The Montreal Canadiens established dynasty after dynasty by promoting former players into key management/coaching roles.

Please, instead of the monologues, address people's specific points.

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12-10-2009, 11:55 AM
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Coles notes, anyone?
- OMG cronyism.

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12-10-2009, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by orcatown View Post


3. So you bet every organization hires ex-players. So what you are saying is that every organization indulges in cronyism. My bet is that good organization make sure the key jobs are done by people who have expertise in the area they are required to have it in. Sure they hire ex-players for PR and such but you look at good organizations and you will see they make sure the key positions are covered off.
just to expand on what LMG replied to... let's take a top organization as an example... whenever someone thinks of the top organizations in the league, the first team on most people's minds is Detroit:

General Manager: Ken Holland - the last 3 years of his playing career in Detroit's system.

Vice President: Steve Yzerman - career wing, expected to take over as team's GM eventually.

Assistant GM: Jim Nill - finished his pro career with Detroit, where he spent the last 5 seasons of that career between their pro and farm team.

assistant coaches:

Paul MacLean - played 76 games for the Redwings - same category as basically Walter and Gagner for the Canucks - 2 of only 3 hirings that Gillis has made of former Canucks at any time.

Brad McCrimmon - 3 seasons with the wings

scouts:

Mark Howe - director of pro scouting - last 3 NHL years in Detroit.

Pat Verbeek - 2 seasons in Detroit

Glenn Merkosky - half his pro career in the Detroit system. Retired with their farm team.

trainers:

Piet Van Zant - top trainer - 6 years in Detroit's AHL system, joined staff after retiring from that same system.


and this isn't unique to Detroit, largely considered one of the top organizations in the league... you'll find the same thing in many other organizations... another top rated organization for example is the Devils:

assistant coaches: Tommy Albelin and Scott Stevens

all 3 coaches in their farm system: John McLean (head coach), Kevin Dean and Chris Terreri all former Devils

you can go through any of the top teams in the league and you'll see the same thing over and over... teams across the board prefer to hire staff that have had some connections at some point with that organization.

So since you've been harping on the Canucks here for hiring a former Canuck to fill a minor role with the team, surely this should be a much bigger problem in Detroit, where their top 3 managers - GM, AGM and VP are all former Wings, along with their head of scouting, and 2 of their 4 assistant coaches?

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12-10-2009, 02:29 PM
  #69
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Hmmm

Orcatown, I think maybe you don't realize the degree of cronyism and nepotism that takes place in the NHL. Every single team without any exception hires former NHL players.

NFITO has layed it out nicely for you....and that's just the tip of the iceberg. I don't think anyone has the time to come up with a longer list...but if you feel so inclined, make your way around each organizations' respective website and drill down through the management and staff and you'll find that the vast majority of them are former NHL players, with ties to management, or has history with the team.

I agree that Smyl was terrible in his position as minor league coach, but he's been shuffled to a position that perhaps is a little more fitting to his personality.

Delorme, I also agree, hasn't been fantastic. I'm the first to proclaim he should be gone. However, I think it is of note, that since Gillis got here, the Canucks drafting seems to have improved, at least on the surface...time will tell. This leads me to believe that Delorme wasn't solely to blame for some of the rotten picks made under previous GM's ...

Also of note, is at the draft 2 years ago, when it was rumoured that Delorme was to be fired, he seemed to be receiving quite a bit of respect from other GM's and scouts, giving their respect and acknowledgement for his time spent as the Canucks head scout....

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12-10-2009, 05:19 PM
  #70
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I agree that Smyl was terrible in his position as minor league coach, but he's been shuffled to a position that perhaps is a little more fitting to his personality.

Delorme, I also agree, hasn't been fantastic. I'm the first to proclaim he should be gone. However, I think it is of note, that since Gillis got here, the Canucks drafting seems to have improved, at least on the surface...time will tell. This leads me to believe that Delorme wasn't solely to blame for some of the rotten picks made under previous GM's ...
I think the problem isn't hiring former players from within the organization... the problem is not firing them if and when they prove ineffective. I think this is what separates the organizations that do it right as opposed to those that don't.

And with Gillis, it's too early to tell whether he'll fall victim to the same trap.

There are still some other former Canucks I'd love to see hired by this organization, as long as they're put in positions to help us succeed... Linden is one of those guys - a bright individual and a passionate Canuck, who could be a real asset to this organization off the ice and no doubt would work his ass off helping the team... I've also been posting for years now that Larionov should be offered a job by this organization... maybe he has been and just isn't interested, but from the time I've started watching hockey, he's stood out as the single most intelligent hockey player I've ever been able to follow and actually talk to personally. He's a brilliant hockey mind IMO and I would love to see him with this organization again someday, though it's very likely he has no interest in such a position.

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12-10-2009, 05:58 PM
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I've been saying this for a while, but I'd like to see Vladimir Krutov replace Roger Takahashi.

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12-10-2009, 06:06 PM
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Montreal at the height of their dynasty had very few former players - its only more recently where they hired more former players with mixed results. Reggie Houle was a total disaster as a GM, managing to trade away all kinds of valuable assets for peanuts, Risebrough as Wild GM was marginal and Carbonneau managed to alienate the whole team in a little more than a season. Savard, Lemaire, Robinson have all been excellent but keep in mind that they all come from the winning team of the 70's which of course means they all know how to recognize players that can win it all whereas former Canucks players have a little less experience with hoisting the Stanley Cup.

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12-10-2009, 06:14 PM
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MS
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orcatown - I understand your concerns given past hirings under previous regimes.

However, the problem hirings in the past (guys like Delorme and Smyl) were jobs given to unqualified hard-working ex-players at the conclusions of the their careers because they were 'good guys' who had worked hard for the team.

At this point, I think you have to give Gillis the benefit of the doubt on this one. He's brought in a ton of new people here (Mellanby, Gilman, Gagner, Henning) and Babych is pretty much the first guy to have strong ties to the organization as a player.

Babych is also a decade removed from playing for this club, and doesn't seem to have any personal connection to Gillis or other top management currently here. And he's done other stuff since retiring - namely his work with the NSWC - which would seem to suggest he's developed a decent resume since the conclusion of his playing career.

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12-10-2009, 06:15 PM
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Everybody has to start somewhere, if you look at Babych he's basically joining an organization in an entry level type situation. He's not starting off as a coach or a head scout. Every former player who joins an organization has to start somewhere. Not only that, but you don't see people get hired in jobs like this who haven't played in the NHL.

So really, this isn't a situation where I'm really concerned about an "old boys club". Babych seems about as qualified for the job he was hired to as the next ex-player who hasn't landed a job in a front office before.

You could argue that he needs player development experience at a lower level before he becomes qualified for player development at the NHL level, but I'm not sure whether organizations in lower leagues even have those positions.

On top of all this, you could argue that it would look better if we hired somebody who hasn't played for the Canucks in the past to avoid some kind of bias but at the same time you have to realize that the reason players get hired into organizations they used to play for isn't because of a bias but simply because that is the place his character, abilities and in general -reputation had the biggest impact.

Why hire somebody who you think is equal to Babych when you know for a fact what Babych brings? It's like hiring somebody you used to work with because you know what he can do over somebody you have never worked with and taking some amount of risk.

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12-10-2009, 06:34 PM
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orcatown
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LostMyGlasses View Post
You lose the bet.

Cam Neely, Steve Yzerman, Ron Francis all play large roles in their teams management/coaching. None had any kind of experience other than being a player in the NHL.

The Montreal Canadiens established dynasty after dynasty by promoting former players into key management/coaching roles.

Please, instead of the monologues, address people's specific points.
Montreal established dynasties under non players like Pollock and Selke. The team went down hill in the 90's when ex-players Houle and Tremblay were brought in and the team has yet to recover. Up to date Gainey has done little. The facts would seem to suggest that Montreal is an example of the negative impact of cronyism - not that it is a good idea.

And to date Yzerman, Francis and Neely have done nothing to prove they are great managers. People expect they might do well but they can not be examples yet of or how hiring ex-players have leads to an successful hockey teams. They haven't done it yet.

The proof you offer for you point is just not good.

If you look at NIfto you see a much better attempt to back up his point with.

On that

I hardly think Holland counts as long time Detroit player (he only played three games with the team). Holland earned his stripes as a scout in the Western Hockey League not as long time part of the team. I have no problem with that. If Babych had a long history of excellent work with prospects and was brought in, everyone would say it was good hiring. I have no problem with an ex-player getting a position with the Canucks after he has good track record. To me Babych has no track record and his hiring was simply an example of cronyism.

Moreover, Nill was not a long time Red Wing and was not hired because of playing contribution to the team but because he again demonstrated proficiency as a Scout.

The point is that these people had to establish their merits before being directly brought in to important positions with the team and that their play for the Red Wings was not a significant factor in their hiring.

People like Nill, Holland were not type of cronyism where some long time player was hired because of playing contributions to the team but because they the organization saw some particular skill they had within the organization

To me cronyism is hiring long time players who get hired on that fact alone. Holland, Nill, Vander Zant, Merkosky and even McCrimmon and Verbeek are hardly examples of that. (some bzarelyu played for the team) If the team brings in someone like Fedorov you would have your example.

In the case of the Canucks, people like Smyl were moved into positions such as assistant coach based absolutely on the their long term playing service to the team. They were not asked, like people like Holland, to apprentice in the minors, demonstrate ability and then move up. Moreover when they were shown to be less than good they were still moved up in the organization.

To me you are comparing apples and oranges. Holland, for example, was hardly a Red Wing player and certainly not an important player on the team . He was not hired because of his play for the team but because, inspite of his minor role on the team, someone was wise enough to think he might make a good scout. Smyl was not hired because the organization saw a bit player who had managerial possibilities but because he had been so important to the '82 Cup run and was one of the only decent players the had in the '80s

The type of cronyism I'm talking about is were people are directly moved into the NHL team based upon their playing career and not on some demonstrated ability at a lower level or some expertise in the area

If the Canucks were moving ex-players into lower level positions and then moving them up in the organization as they showed ability then there would be no complaint. For example, Gradin started as overseas and seemingly part time scout. As he did well he became more central to the scouting system. No one has a problem with that.

Again my hope was that Gillis would clean out the dead-rot in the organization that has resulted from cronyism. To date, he has not done so and he still seems committed to satisfying the alumni. The Canucks remain a make work project for ex-players (see the pay per view) as I think the hiring of Babych illustrates

Lastly, the argument that everyone does it, both successful and unsuccessful organizations, is IMO thin. We're talking about the Canucks and the effect cronyism has had specifically on this team.
Whether some other team has been benefited or not from such practice does not negate the negative impact it has on the Canucks. IMO the effect has been very detrimental and I would point at drafting, scouting (at both the pro and amateur level) and player development as a some areas were that argument can be made.

In other words, the type of cronyism shown by the Canucks has not worked for the team and needs to be ended

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