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Old
12-11-2009, 11:19 AM
  #51
mikedifr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
There were reports of cliques and the like in Philadelphia.

That isn't a secret.

JR says not to blame Stevens, but in the end, the locker room is his responsibility. How the players interact with each other is sometimes unavoidable, but honestly, with a career of his own to worry about through the majority of the Stevens era, how much has he really witnessed?

I am one of JR's biggest fans. I love his personality. I love how he played for us.

This time though, I really think our locker room and our play were a direct effect of the type of coaching we had in place.

JR says that the coach shouldn't be to blame in Philadelphia, but I think this situation was one of the most obvious situations where a coaching change was necessary out of the many changes we've seen in recent memory.

I still hope Stevens rejoins the organization in some way, shape, or form. He is a good guy who really does want the players to succeed. You can tell he cares about the players and how they develop, both on the ice and in life. That's something important to keep within the organization even if his leadership role should be questioned.

Some people like to assume a captain is the leader and should have control of the locker room at all times. A captain though is the second in command under the coach in all respects. In that regard, a captain is only as good as his coach.

I'm not saying Richards or the leadership among players should not take any blame for any locker room issues, but without a coach that's going to be a coach there's no use for a captain.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
I agree to an extent. John didn't exactly have much control over the locker room. I think he tried to assert himself as someone to look up to, but he tried to do it by becoming a "member of the team," so to speak.

In reality, I assume the team really did like Stevens for the most part. That doesn't necessarily mean he was the best man for the position.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
Fact is if i guy comes in without the "im one of you guys" attitude you will see that the locker room stuff will soon go away. When you realise that your actually playing for a place on the team, thats when you start to play your own game and keep your head down.

Now i'm not saying that richards, carter, timmo and the like were playing badly on purpose, but knowing their job security is only a bad thing. When you have to play lights out to earn a job, you damn well do it. Thats why we are seeing the bottom 6 really starting to play this year. They know there is allot of talent in the farm that is close to the level they are, so they are shifting their ***** to do it.

Lavy will have that locker room under his control right now. I bet he has already started weeding out the **** they get away with by punishing them with long training sessions on the ice. If lavy is hated by the players it's sometimes a good thing, because at least all the players agree on one thing. The coach isn't meant to be your friend. He's meant to teach you how to win. Something stevens didn't fully grasp
Exactly the point Steven's supporters dont understand. Was everything his fault? Absolutely not. Did he deserve to be fired?? Maybe, maybe not.....However, the locker room is HIS responsibility, not the captains. He is responsible for making these pieces fit together.

As far as the chemistry, cliques, etc. This can have a huge impact. I for one can tell you how much "cliques" have really screwed up the group I work in now. People are at each other's throats, people arent sharing info like they are suppossed to all because of a few people that have caused these cliques to break out....

Anyway, I think chemistry is a big issue with this team. You think about when they went to the conference finals two years ago where this team just seemed to be clicking and playing hard for each other and then since then you have lost Umberger, Lupul, Downie, Upshall, Smith, Hatcher, Biron, Knuble. I think the team has just changed over too much to be honest....hence why I think the coach needed to go.

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12-11-2009, 11:34 AM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post
Exactly the point Steven's supporters dont understand. Was everything his fault? Absolutely not. Did he deserve to be fired?? Maybe, maybe not.....However, the locker room is HIS responsibility, not the captains. He is responsible for making these pieces fit together.

As far as the chemistry, cliques, etc. This can have a huge impact. I for one can tell you how much "cliques" have really screwed up the group I work in now. People are at each other's throats, people arent sharing info like they are suppossed to all because of a few people that have caused these cliques to break out....

Anyway, I think chemistry is a big issue with this team. You think about when they went to the conference finals two years ago where this team just seemed to be clicking and playing hard for each other and then since then you have lost Umberger, Lupul, Downie, Upshall, Smith, Hatcher, Biron, Knuble. I think the team has just changed over too much to be honest....hence why I think the coach needed to go.
In 07-08 this team had an identity. They didn't know just what they were, but put forth a lot of effort together to make it as far as they did. There was no real face. Briere was brought in as a star, but it wasn't him making that team go. Gagne, who probably would've been that guy, was injured.

08-09 we started the Richards era. Most of the team was still the same as 07-08.

Now we see a pretty big upheaval. Let's face it. Lupul was a member of the "core." It wasn't an on-ice core, but it was a certain youth movement that grew together.

Now you have Giroux and vanRiemsdyk who are younger than that prior youth movement. They're looking to be stars in the near future.

The guy the locker room relied on I think more than people realize, Knuble, is no longer around.

Timonen is no longer "the guy" on the blueline. That's now Pronger.

Lupul is gone. Biron is gone.

The Flyers youth movement core thought they had the future of the Flyers set in stone. Now Richards is realizing that the "core" is a revolving door around a few guys, not just all of his locker room buddies.

A new coach, outside of all the other issues Laviolette has to correct, will be a great experience for Richards and Carter. They need to learn that change is going to happen around them. They're expected to be the identity of this team.

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Old
12-11-2009, 11:45 AM
  #53
mikedifr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
In 07-08 this team had an identity. They didn't know just what they were, but put forth a lot of effort together to make it as far as they did. There was no real face. Briere was brought in as a star, but it wasn't him making that team go. Gagne, who probably would've been that guy, was injured.

08-09 we started the Richards era. Most of the team was still the same as 07-08.

Now we see a pretty big upheaval. Let's face it. Lupul was a member of the "core." It wasn't an on-ice core, but it was a certain youth movement that grew together.

Now you have Giroux and vanRiemsdyk who are younger than that prior youth movement. They're looking to be stars in the near future.

The guy the locker room relied on I think more than people realize, Knuble, is no longer around.

Timonen is no longer "the guy" on the blueline. That's now Pronger.

Lupul is gone. Biron is gone.

The Flyers youth movement core thought they had the future of the Flyers set in stone. Now Richards is realizing that the "core" is a revolving door around a few guys, not just all of his locker room buddies.

A new coach, outside of all the other issues Laviolette has to correct, will be a great experience for Richards and Carter. They need to learn that change is going to happen around them. They're expected to be the identity of this team.
Well said Chris, essentially my point. I COMPLETELY agree with you on Knuble. Prior to last season after Smith left, he had my vote for captain. I think it was similar to when Handzus was moved a few years ago, these guys had a lot more respect/impact in the locker room than we thought.

In addition to Lupul I would argue that Upshall was just as big a part of that core of young "friends" Yeah he didnt put up big numbers on the ice, but he, Richards, Carter, Hartnell, Lupul were all very close.

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12-11-2009, 12:02 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post
Well said Chris, essentially my point. I COMPLETELY agree with you on Knuble. Prior to last season after Smith left, he had my vote for captain. I think it was similar to when Handzus was moved a few years ago, these guys had a lot more respect/impact in the locker room than we thought.

In addition to Lupul I would argue that Upshall was just as big a part of that core of young "friends" Yeah he didnt put up big numbers on the ice, but he, Richards, Carter, Hartnell, Lupul were all very close.
I agree with Upshall, and even to an extent, Downie, as much as I disliked him. One team that was all together has fractured since the end of 07-08.

Now it's the remnants of the original youth movement:
Carter, Richards, Hartnell, Coburn (somewhat)

The new kids/call ups:
Giroux, vanRiemsdyk, Parent, Bartulis, Carcillo Kalinski, Nodl, Laliberte, Carle and Pyorala as well for lack of a place to put them

The remaining vets from the youth movement era:
Timonen, Briere, Cote, Asham (to an extent)

The new vets:
Pronger, Laperriere, Betts


It shouldn't be surprising that there would be some sort of upheaval in the locker room. The goal is for Laviolette to do what Stevens obviously couldn't: get them working together.

Laviolette's philosophy of "activating" defenseman is a great way to do this I think. It's making the guys on the team more aware of who is out there on the ice with them, and what jobs that player has to do within the lineup. It's turning the randomized play of each player into a cohesive movement of a group of players.

I like to describe the Flyers under Stavens as "chaos on ice."

So far Laviolette's system seems more like "one gigantic force" as apposed to a bunch of good players running around like their hair's on fire.

Laviolette is exactly what this team needed.


Last edited by CS: 12-11-2009 at 12:07 PM.
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Old
12-11-2009, 08:45 PM
  #55
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they should man up and not get ******** when their friends are traded.. this is a business.

also, it is no coincidence that the flyers suck without Betts, i ALSO think it is no coincidence that all this turmoil comes up with Pronger being here.. i don't care if it takes another 1/4 of the season for this to turn around, but i think (HOPE) Pronger can whip these young guys into the superstars they should be.

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