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PHX rejected Sanguinetti for Mueller

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Old
12-11-2009, 12:18 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by DubiSnacks17 View Post
If I knew I had my job for life I'd sure do so.
We'll see how long your "job for life" lasts when you ask for your boss to basically spend millions and millions (and millions and millions) of dollars for nothing.

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12-11-2009, 12:20 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
We'll see how long your "job for life" lasts when you ask for your boss to basically spend millions and millions (and millions and millions) of dollars for nothing.
Well I hope Mr. Jimmy boy likes losing his millions of dollars of playoff revenue because this team's going nowhere and fast.

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12-11-2009, 12:21 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by DubiSnacks17 View Post
Well I hope Mr. Jimmy boy likes losing his millions of dollars of playoff revenue because this team's going nowhere and fast.
Thats kind of my point.

Im sure Sather (and Dolan for that matter) would rather take the gamble that this team will squeak into the playoffs than flush that much money into Hartford.

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12-11-2009, 12:21 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Umm... Mueller is 21 years old.

And Callahan has a WHOPPING 3 points more. Registering nearly 6 minutes MORE ATOI. More PP time. More 5v5 time.

Nice try, though.
I'm a fan of Mueller, and I can admit that he has the potential to be a good player, but your unwavering disdain for Callahan is just plain laughable at this point. Callahan has been the better player in every facet of the game this season. There's no way to dispute that. Players get their TOI reduced because they're playing like ****, it's not an excuse for why they're not producing. It's a result of their lack of production.

He gets less TOI because he's been awful, unmotivated, and he's USELESS in other situations. Mueller is averaging 1 minute less than Callahan in PP TOI, but he hasn't played on the PK all season. Not a single second. If he's not scoring, he brings nothing else to the table.

3 more points is still 3 more points. The fact that "stone handed 3rd liner" Callahan has more points than "potential 1st line forward" Mueller doesn't concern you at all? 4 more goals than the guy who's supposed to be a 1st line goal scorer? The guy has been in the league for 3 years now. The fact that he's 21 can no longer be used as a crutch. Plenty of players are doing well at 21 with as much experience as Mueller, some of them with less.

Does Mueller have more potential? Yep. If he hits that potential, will he blow Callahan's production out of the water? Absolutely. But will he ever be as effective in the other parts of the game? Seriously doubtful, and frankly, I have some doubts about him realizing that potential until he can get his head on straight.

I'm not at all opposed to trading Callahan, but it's not going to be for "potential". It's going to be in a package for someone who's established themselves as a point producer.

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12-11-2009, 12:24 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by RangerFan10 View Post
I mean, Prucha's had more than one 20 goal season, and would you trade Sangs for him?
Prucha is older. The Rangers have a lot of young defensemen. Sanguinetti has shown he could develop into a solid nhl dman but nothing special. What GM wouldn't try to trade him for a forward of the same age who has once proved that he was a top 6 forward already? It's worth a shot.

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12-11-2009, 12:25 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
I'm a fan of Mueller, and I can admit that he has the potential to be a good player, but your unwavering disdain for Callahan is just plain laughable at this point. Callahan has been the better player in every facet of the game this season. There's no way to dispute that. Players get their TOI reduced because they're playing like ****, it's not an excuse for why they're not producing. It's a result of their lack of production.

He gets less TOI because he's been awful, unmotivated, and he's USELESS in other situations. Mueller is averaging 1 minute less than Callahan in PP TOI, but he hasn't played on the PK all season. Not a single second. If he's not scoring, he brings nothing else to the table.

3 more points is still 3 more points. The fact that "stone handed 3rd liner" Callahan has more points than "potential 1st line forward" Mueller doesn't concern you at all? 4 more goals than the guy who's supposed to be a 1st line goal scorer? The guy has been in the league for 3 years now. The fact that he's 21 can no longer be used as a crutch. Plenty of players are doing well at 21 with as much experience as Mueller, some of them with less.

Does Mueller have more potential? Yep. If he hits that potential, will he blow Callahan's production out of the water? Absolutely. But will he ever be as effective in the other parts of the game? Seriously doubtful, and frankly, I have some doubts about him realizing that potential until he can get his head on straight.

I'm not at all opposed to trading Callahan, but it's not going to be for "potential". It's going to be in a package for someone who's established themselves as a point producer.
Trxjw, you and I have had our differences over Callahan. But I agree, its kind of getting ugly around here.

The guy is what he is. A third liner thats going to bust his ass every single night. He probably wont ever become the 30 goal scorer some predicted him to be, but hes still an important component of any team.

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12-11-2009, 12:26 PM
  #107
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We'll see how long your "job for life" lasts when you ask for your boss to basically spend millions and millions (and millions and millions) of dollars for nothing.
The Rangers are a profitable organization and also one of the most valuable NHL franchises. Sather hasn't brought on-ice success, but let's not pretend like we're pissing "millions and millions (and millions and millions)" of dollars of Dolan's money away with no result. Hockey's a business and now that the cap is in place, Sather and the Rangers are definitely making Dolan money despite any lack of on-ice success.

An argument could certainly be made that they'd be pulling in more money if they were successful, but let's not pretend like Sather is doing nothing... he's still doing the primary thing Dolan is paying him to do... make money. I wish on-ice success was the only measuring stick, but it is not.

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12-11-2009, 12:31 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
god no.

dubinsky has no offensive talent whatsoever. he just doesnt. hes a 3rd line centerman.

hanzal is 6'5 215 and he can skate. hes much more skilled than brandon. hes a 2c waiting to happen.

hanzals upside > dubinsky.
While I don't think that Dubi can light the world on fire, he's shown to have more offensive talent than Hanzal.

Additionally, Dubi uses his size alot more than Hanzal has thus far in their careers. Hanzal seems ot have picked that portion of his game up this year.

Hanzal has played 30 games this year and only has 10 points.

Dubi has played a dozen less and had as many points

Players that have no offensive capabilities do not contribute to being one of the better lines in hockey for any length of time at all.

Brandon - Prospal - Gaborik line was dominating things for a while until Torts the effing genius broke them up.

Hanzal has been a HUGE disappointment for that franchise, considering what his upside was supposed to have been.

I just do not see much of an improvement on the defensive side of the ledger to off-set the current gap (and it is quite sizeable of a gap) on the offensive side of the equation to trade Dubinsky for Hanzal.

and for the upside comment, 3 years in and he's not progressed as a player, right now I'm not convinced, not at all, that Hanzal has higher upside than Dubinsky.

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12-11-2009, 12:33 PM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SomE View Post
Prucha is older. The Rangers have a lot of young defensemen. Sanguinetti has shown he could develop into a solid nhl dman but nothing special. What GM wouldn't try to trade him for a forward of the same age who has once proved that he was a top 6 forward already? It's worth a shot.
They have a lot of young defenseman, but he's leading the A in scoring.

We can do better than Mueller for Sanguinetti. The odds of Sanguinetti developing into something we can use versus Mueller are much better.

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12-11-2009, 12:35 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
I'm a fan of Mueller, and I can admit that he has the potential to be a good player, but your unwavering disdain for Callahan is just plain laughable at this point. Callahan has been the better player in every facet of the game this season. There's no way to dispute that. Players get their TOI reduced because they're playing like ****, it's not an excuse for why they're not producing. It's a result of their lack of production.

He gets less TOI because he's been awful, unmotivated, and he's USELESS in other situations. Mueller is averaging 1 minute less than Callahan in PP TOI, but he hasn't played on the PK all season. Not a single second. If he's not scoring, he brings nothing else to the table.

3 more points is still 3 more points. The fact that "stone handed 3rd liner" Callahan has more points than "potential 1st line forward" Mueller doesn't concern you at all? 4 more goals than the guy who's supposed to be a 1st line goal scorer? The guy has been in the league for 3 years now. The fact that he's 21 can no longer be used as a crutch. Plenty of players are doing well at 21 with as much experience as Mueller, some of them with less.

Does Mueller have more potential? Yep. If he hits that potential, will he blow Callahan's production out of the water? Absolutely. But will he ever be as effective in the other parts of the game? Seriously doubtful, and frankly, I have some doubts about him realizing that potential until he can get his head on straight.

I'm not at all opposed to trading Callahan, but it's not going to be for "potential". It's going to be in a package for someone who's established themselves as a point producer.

great post. People seem to forget that these third line players who play like he does are still very important to a team. All the championship teams have at least one Cally type player on their teams. He may not be the most talented, but I think he is very integral to our success in the future.

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12-11-2009, 12:37 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
I'm a fan of Mueller, and I can admit that he has the potential to be a good player, but your unwavering disdain for Callahan is just plain laughable at this point. Callahan has been the better player in every facet of the game this season. There's no way to dispute that. Players get their TOI reduced because they're playing like ****, it's not an excuse for why they're not producing. It's a result of their lack of production.

He gets less TOI because he's been awful, unmotivated, and he's USELESS in other situations. Mueller is averaging 1 minute less than Callahan in PP TOI, but he hasn't played on the PK all season. Not a single second. If he's not scoring, he brings nothing else to the table.
It's a shame you weren't a part of the discussions when they traded Korpikoski for Lisin, because my god, you can change out the names and tell the same exact story. At some point the front office has to stop trying to find the guy that 'is underachieving because of the lack of ice time and the current scenery, we can find a gem by changing both'. We're going to keep trading away our very servicable 3rd and 4th liners for failed 1st liners. The worst part is, the skilled and lazy underachievers make for horrible bottom 6 forwards which is exactly where they end up after they fail here too. Meanwhile our former grinders make a career out of hustling for Cup champs and contenders.

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12-11-2009, 12:37 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
I'm a fan of Mueller, and I can admit that he has the potential to be a good player, but your unwavering disdain for Callahan is just plain laughable at this point. Callahan has been the better player in every facet of the game this season. There's no way to dispute that. Players get their TOI reduced because they're playing like ****, it's not an excuse for why they're not producing. It's a result of their lack of production.

He gets less TOI because he's been awful, unmotivated, and he's USELESS in other situations. Mueller is averaging 1 minute less than Callahan in PP TOI, but he hasn't played on the PK all season. Not a single second. If he's not scoring, he brings nothing else to the table.

3 more points is still 3 more points. The fact that "stone handed 3rd liner" Callahan has more points than "potential 1st line forward" Mueller doesn't concern you at all? 4 more goals than the guy who's supposed to be a 1st line goal scorer? The guy has been in the league for 3 years now. The fact that he's 21 can no longer be used as a crutch. Plenty of players are doing well at 21 with as much experience as Mueller, some of them with less.

Does Mueller have more potential? Yep. If he hits that potential, will he blow Callahan's production out of the water? Absolutely. But will he ever be as effective in the other parts of the game? Seriously doubtful, and frankly, I have some doubts about him realizing that potential until he can get his head on straight.

I'm not at all opposed to trading Callahan, but it's not going to be for "potential". It's going to be in a package for someone who's established themselves as a point producer.
Look, i would prefer NOT to deal Callahan, either. Because ideally, i'd like him on the 3rd/4th line, killing penalties, and not getting as much 5v5 and PP time. IMO, he then becomes increasingly more valuable to the team.

But unfortunately Sather has killed this team with these contracts, that no body will touch.

So we have to either sit tight and be terrible.

Or trade guys like Callahan (who we can replace from within).

It's a awful situation the Rangers are in right now.

I still believe the future is bright with our prospects. But right now, this situation on the NHL club, and in Hartford is terrible.

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12-11-2009, 12:41 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by azrok22 View Post
The Rangers are a profitable organization and also one of the most valuable NHL franchises. Sather hasn't brought on-ice success, but let's not pretend like we're pissing "millions and millions (and millions and millions)" of dollars of Dolan's money away with no result. Hockey's a business and now that the cap is in place, Sather and the Rangers are definitely making Dolan money despite any lack of on-ice success.

An argument could certainly be made that they'd be pulling in more money if they were successful, but let's not pretend like Sather is doing nothing... he's still doing the primary thing Dolan is paying him to do... make money. I wish on-ice success was the only measuring stick, but it is not.
It's a funny thing because a short 20 years ago, that was the ONLY measuring stick to a GM's success.

And truth be told, it should still be that way.

Teams have marketing departments to generate money. The GM of the franchise's goal needs to be to put the best possible product on the ice to win games.

The moment generating revenue for a franchise was included into his job description, was the moment that has beens like Sather get the ability to mask their ineptitude of the main part of his job and point to the revenue he is generating.

No, on ice is not the only measuring stick...and that's a damn shame.

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12-11-2009, 12:43 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Trxjw, you and I have had our differences over Callahan. But I agree, its kind of getting ugly around here.

The guy is what he is. A third liner thats going to bust his ass every single night. He probably wont ever become the 30 goal scorer some predicted him to be, but hes still an important component of any team.
I think he can still be a 2nd liner on this team, but it's not a guarantee by any means and I certainly don't have him pegged as a 30 goal scorer. If he ends up as a 3rd liner, that's fine with me. I just don't think it's wise to degrade his value to the team because of it.

I have a problem with people writing him off based on his production this season while they extend the benefit of the doubt to everyone else.

There's no point in buying low and selling low, especially when one guy does the things that don't show up on the scoreboard while the other does not. Callahan with low production is a hell of a lot more valuable than Mueller with low production.

Now, if they both max out their production potential, it's not even close. Mueller is by far the better player in that regard. However, is it worth it to lose out on our best PKing forward, assistant captain, and energy guy like Callahan just so we can see if Mueller gets his head on straight? Is 60 points from a one-dimensional headcase more valuable than 40 from a guy like Cally? I don't think so, but that's just my opinion.

I mean, look at it like this: Would you trade Callahan for Zherdev?

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12-11-2009, 12:44 PM
  #115
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There's no way I would trade Callahan for Mueller. Callahan, hits, he cares and he works on the ice. He's a great team player. Mueller does little of the above. Mules has offensive skill (mostly a big shot) but he seems to be settling in as a perimeter player and he has been a healthy scratch several times this year. I have the advantage of watching both of them extensively.

Sanguinetti for Mueller would be a good deal for the Rangers, less so for the Coyotes. Phoenix has real depth on defense and their top three prospects not in the NHL are defensemen. It doesn't address what the Coyotes have and need.

It does however indicate that Sanguinetti is in play. That makes sense to me. And there will be a market. I think St. Louis (which desperately needs better puck handling on defense) and Carolina (which needs to get younger on defense) are two possible stops. Both have pieces the Rangers could use. Given the state of the team and the roster, it's something I would pursue.

Thought -- Sanguinetti + a sweetner + a salary for Tuomo Ruutu?


Last edited by bobbop: 12-11-2009 at 12:50 PM.
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12-11-2009, 12:46 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by SomE View Post
Prucha is older. The Rangers have a lot of young defensemen. Sanguinetti has shown he could develop into a solid nhl dman but nothing special. What GM wouldn't try to trade him for a forward of the same age who has once proved that he was a top 6 forward already? It's worth a shot.
Was Kotalik a good move by our GM, was he worth it? After all he had a couple good seasons in Buffalo.......I would prefer we stay in the system and develope our own players. It is easy for me to bash Sather, he doesn't know what he is doing. I have no confidence in his ability to put a team together.

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12-11-2009, 12:48 PM
  #117
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Look, i would prefer NOT to deal Callahan, either. Because ideally, i'd like him on the 3rd/4th line, killing penalties, and not getting as much 5v5 and PP time. IMO, he then becomes increasingly more valuable to the team.

But unfortunately Sather has killed this team with these contracts, that no body will touch.

So we have to either sit tight and be terrible.

Or trade guys like Callahan (who we can replace from within).


It's a awful situation the Rangers are in right now.

I still believe the future is bright with our prospects. But right now, this situation on the NHL club, and in Hartford is terrible.
First off, who would replace his PKing, leadership, hitting, and he can actually score.

Second.. do you really think that Mueller would magically transform us into something better?

third... think of the big picture... if we trade cally for Mueller and it doesn't work (which can happen) than we are losing an important member of this team for nothing. Also we would still be as bad and in just as bad a situation. Is this risk worth it to you?

I really think we should just ride out this crappy year, than try to offload as much baggage (Drury, Redden, Kots, Brash, Rosy, Girardi, Lisin) as we can this TD or offseason. Then depending on how much baggage we offload sign maybe a vet FA or two to one year deals. Then ride out another meh season while incorporating a little more youth, and again try to offload the remaining garbage that TD and offseason.

Then for the 2011-20012 season we should have our better prospects up (Step, McD and maybe a high 2010 dp) and ready, along w/ a still in their prime Gabby and Lundy and the rest of our youth having some experience and getting closer to their primes. Then we should seriously start competing.

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12-11-2009, 12:48 PM
  #118
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I don't understand why Maloney would want to trade Mueller for a defenseman like Sangs. Phoenix has a solid top 6 right now with guys like Ekman-Larsson, Summers, and Goncharov in the wings. Seems kinda weird. Either way, I think Mueller would be better suited if he were packaged with a pick or two to get a higher end player for the Yotes.

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12-11-2009, 12:48 PM
  #119
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.

I can almost Guarantee you that Mueller will be 2-3x more the player Bernier is, whom you compared him to. Especially under Torts.
I'm sorry but i think it's time we put the whole "this player will do better, especially under Torts" to rest until he can prove he can actually make a player better at anything.

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12-11-2009, 12:49 PM
  #120
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Look, i would prefer NOT to deal Callahan, either. Because ideally, i'd like him on the 3rd/4th line, killing penalties, and not getting as much 5v5 and PP time. IMO, he then becomes increasingly more valuable to the team.

But unfortunately Sather has killed this team with these contracts, that no body will touch.

So we have to either sit tight and be terrible.

Or trade guys like Callahan (who we can replace from within).

It's a awful situation the Rangers are in right now.

I still believe the future is bright with our prospects. But right now, this situation on the NHL club, and in Hartford is terrible.
We're both Ranger fans. I know how you feel about the team right now because I feel the same way. The problem is that you're selling low and buying even lower.

Mueller has a ton of potential, but so did Zherdev. So have countless other players throughout the years. I think our lineup is stronger with Callahan in it than it is with Mueller today. Now, that could change, but I'm not willing to risk a quality player like Callahan to see if it does. Some guys just don't have the head to be a consistent NHLer and Mueller strikes me as one of those guys.

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12-11-2009, 12:50 PM
  #121
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It's a shame you weren't a part of the discussions when they traded Korpikoski for Lisin, because my god, you can change out the names and tell the same exact story.
So true, but it makes you think, if you had Korps, you might be in a position to take a flyer on Mueller at the expense of Callahan and see if the gamble pays off. No matter what you think about Mueller, you've got to like of his chances of improving compared to Lisin.

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12-11-2009, 12:52 PM
  #122
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There's no way I would trade Callahan for Mueller. Callahan, hits, he cares and he works on the ice. He's a great team player. Mueller does little of the above. Mules has offensive skill (mostly a big shot) but he seems to be settling in as a perimeter player and he has been a healthy scratch several times this year. I have the advantage of watching both of them extensively.

Sanguinetti for Mueller would be a good deal for the Rangers, less so for the Coyotes. Phoenix has real depth on defense and their top three prospects not in the NHL are defensemen. It doesn't address what the Coyotes have and need.

It does however indicate that Sanguinetti is in play. That makes sense to me. And there will be a market. I think St. Louis (which desperately needs better puck handling on defense) and Carolina (which needs to get younger on defense) are two possible stops. Both have pieces the Rangers could use. Given the state of the team and the roster, it's something I would pursue.

Thought -- Sanguinetti + a sweetner + a salary for Tuomo Ruutu?
stop making so much sense bob.

you stick out like a sore thumb around these parts.

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12-11-2009, 12:53 PM
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I'm sorry but i think it's time we put the whole "this player will do better, especially under Torts" to rest until he can prove he can actually make a player better at anything.
How are Gaborik and Prospal faring under Torts?

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12-11-2009, 12:55 PM
  #124
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They have a lot of young defenseman, but he's leading the A in scoring.

We can do better than Mueller for Sanguinetti. The odds of Sanguinetti developing into something we can use versus Mueller are much better.
And the odds of Sanguinetti developing into a nothing special player that you can pick up on the FA market year in and year out are the greatest odds of all. Why not take a chance?

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12-11-2009, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
How are Gaborik and Prospal faring under Torts?
Both are starting to look exhausted, and its only mid December.

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