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Blues (13-11-5) vs Oilers (14-13-4) Dec 11 7 PM

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Old
12-12-2009, 10:48 AM
  #51
execwrite
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Well, you can't deny reality. That collapse proved this team has serious problems.

To me, when a team starts to crack, veteran leaders have to step up. A Mark Messier type would never let his team fold up like the Blues did last nite.

But you guys who think Murray is the problem just got more ammunition to work with. If this doesn't get fixed soon, he's in trouble.

This game could be the turning point for the whole season. How the players respond ... who knows?

===========

"We can't let each other off the hook, it's got to come from within the room," Blues defenseman Barret Jackman said. "It's got to be guys holding each other accountable. If one guy's not going to be buying into the system we have to give him a kick in the butt and get him going.

"If guys need to be sitting, or if guys need to be smacked upside the head by a teammate, it's going to have to happen."


Last edited by execwrite: 12-12-2009 at 10:56 AM.
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Old
12-12-2009, 11:01 AM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BergMan View Post
Normally i would agree with you. a lot of those last second goals are for exactly this reason and its frustrating. For this game though even after that third goal the blues were still trying to score. i watched the game again this morning and the blues did try multiple 2 on 1 and 33 on 2 beaks even in the later parts of the game. There were times where they chipped it but it looked like they were just too tired to attempt something like that that late in a shift.
They were going through the motions, but they didn't really "believe" they could win, after The Oilers scored their 2nd goal. It's a subconscious thing. Have you played organised hockey? We always play hard and "try" to win. But, there are games that you (as a team) "KNOW" you are going to win, and no one is going to stop you. The team had that confidence until the lazy let-down in the last minute of the 2nd. They relaxed with less than a minute left ("thinking" they'd take a 3-0 lead into the 3rd). Oilers jumped on it. The Blues had a subconscious "Oh, NO! It's happening again" feeling going into the 3rd. They were a little tense, forgetting the feeling of confidence ("We're Gonna mop up the ice with this team") feeling. That wasn't a sealed loss yet, but because the lost their "killer instinct", The Oilers' offence pressured them more. That led to the 2nd goal. THAT lead to even less confidence, and less puck control and allowed The Oilers to control the game.

Momentum is not easy to turn around consciously. The Blues' players wanted badly to win, but their subconscious had them playing in a mild "panic", rather than being free to have full confidence, and play "naturally" - having the "jump in their skates" and playing their physical dominating game.

Murray, his philosophy and rules related to causing penalties, staying on the ice too long, and so on, cause The Blues' players to play a tense, rather than natural game.

Murray is not The Blues' only problem, -but directly plus indirectly, he's a big part of it.

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12-12-2009, 11:38 AM
  #53
WalterSobchak
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Originally Posted by ChicagoBlues View Post
During that--presumably highly edited--interview with KT that you're referred to I noticed how KT eventually would say that it was the players who seemed like they were playing to get to overtime. In the beginning of the interview, though, it seemed to me that he was eluding to Coach Murray. In other words, he changed his tune as the interview progressed.

==================

Another poster here, I believe it was 2MinuteMinor, brought up the obvious, but important, point that, at home, Coach Murray has the benefit of having the last line change. Yet Coach Murray continually matches lines. In other words, he is letting the visiting team dictate the play.

That can't happen!!

The Blues had a 3-0 lead and he started panicking when Edmonton put out their best players and would start to match up his lines defensively. The Blues have to dictate the play at home and the only way to do that is to put out your best players and let find a way to beat the opposing line, whatever the make-up of that line may be, whether offensive or "shutdown".

In the recap of the game The Blues announcers, I think Pang, said something like, "The Blues could not shut down The Oilers top line."

That's exactly the problem. The Blues are trying to shut down the opposing top line without focusing on offense.
It was me who pointed that out in the home v. away record. The reason Detroit was so good for so many years was because their best penalty killers were Zetterberg and Datysuk. When you can have your best players out there to kill penalties and play sound defense then you can dictate the play at home or on the road.

We don't have that luxury but we need to find it if Murray is going to play the match game when he has a lead. That isn't dictating the play, as you point out and until we have a system that does dictate the game, we're just clutching and grabbing and grinding out a point or two if we can't and that isn't progress.

If it was ever insinuated or believed I think that Murray is the only problem this team has that is not what I meant. Murray is the easiest change to make and he is to blame as much as anyone on that ice is.

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Old
12-12-2009, 11:40 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by WalterSobchak View Post
Either way it falls on Murray. Either he is initiating the defensive play that has led to the collapse and loss or he isn't getting the players to play within his system in which case he has lost the team.

Its alot easier for the Blues to replace the coach than to sell their assets at their lowest value in trade.
You could always replace him with Mactavish.

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12-12-2009, 01:01 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
You could always replace him with Mactavish.
Good cure for strictly defensive minded hockey! *Sarcasm* Trust me, as cool as he is you do not want him.

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Old
12-12-2009, 03:57 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Robb_K View Post
They were going through the motions, but they didn't really "believe" they could win, after The Oilers scored their 2nd goal. It's a subconscious thing. Have you played organised hockey? We always play hard and "try" to win. But, there are games that you (as a team) "KNOW" you are going to win, and no one is going to stop you. The team had that confidence until the lazy let-down in the last minute of the 2nd. They relaxed with less than a minute left ("thinking" they'd take a 3-0 lead into the 3rd). Oilers jumped on it. The Blues had a subconscious "Oh, NO! It's happening again" feeling going into the 3rd. They were a little tense, forgetting the feeling of confidence ("We're Gonna mop up the ice with this team") feeling. That wasn't a sealed loss yet, but because the lost their "killer instinct", The Oilers' offence pressured them more. That led to the 2nd goal. THAT lead to even less confidence, and less puck control and allowed The Oilers to control the game.

Momentum is not easy to turn around consciously. The Blues' players wanted badly to win, but their subconscious had them playing in a mild "panic", rather than being free to have full confidence, and play "naturally" - having the "jump in their skates" and playing their physical dominating game.

Murray, his philosophy and rules related to causing penalties, staying on the ice too long, and so on, cause The Blues' players to play a tense, rather than natural game.

Murray is not The Blues' only problem, -but directly plus indirectly, he's a big part of it.
This post makes a lot of sense to me and answers a lot of questions i did have about the blues and all the murray hate.

i have played some organized hockey, though not much at a low level. but i can still see what you mean ther were times as a team we all wanted to score and make sure we destroyed the other team. but then there were other games it seemed like we tried and wanted to win but were expecting either a perfect set up to shoot and score or expecting someone else to and not relaly working for the win.

It is a good point the blues were going through the motions. how many times have we failed on 2 on 1 and maybe even 1 on 0 by just barely missing. and how many more times do you think we might have scored if we were trying all out to score. This really did seem to lose confidence in themselves and that is one thing that has been faltering many times throughout the year.

Your last two statements has me half on the murray firing wagon. more and moer it seems like this team needs a change. and if players and youth are traded away i will be so angry and absolutely hate the direcction this team would take. i expect this team to be like chicago in a year or two lol. a team filled with talent that can dominate without big trades but can use one to absolutely stack their team. id be much happier with a coaching change than players moving and possibly losing the youth that i have such high hopes for.

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Old
12-12-2009, 04:47 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Blues0307 View Post
Well said Robb. This team is lacking in so many areas now, I don't even know where to start. But they do not lack talent, so the lack of production falls on the coach whether it's fair or not. Murray has got to be gone by next season if the Blues organization wants to re-energize their fanbase and season ticket holders.
I am usually not the type of sports fan who calls for the coach's head when a team is doing poorly (unless it's a team like The Rams).

However, The Blues have a unique opportunity to win a Stanley Cup Championship in the next few seasons. The rare combination of loads of talent and asset flexibility is very close and JD needs to realize that, if he allows Murray to continue with this fear-based coaching, then he risks the ability to sign and retain key free agents.

Firing Murray "next year" is too late.

We fans have lives outside of hockey and jobs and all of that. For these players, this is their life and their jobs. And losing one whole year to sub-par hockey because your coach is a ****ing turtle is a huge blow to a player's future career opportunities.

The worst part of this is that there are not many replacement options.

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Old
12-12-2009, 08:21 PM
  #58
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I think the worst part about this hold on to any lead, no matter how small, system is that it creates this sense of "if we aren't perfect on our defensive system the other team scoring their way out of a loss is inevitable"

That attitude doesn't suit the NHL, no game should ever be done and over, no one should ever have scored or pressured the other team "enough" It has to be a full 60 minutes every night, all night. That's the first thing that comes up after a loss that shouldn't have happened.

Why on Earth Murray is still convinced that going from a "we have to score to win" to "don't let them score or else" change every night at random points in the game is helping young players improve and veterans carry their team to a win is beyond me.

It just destroys consistency and tells his players to ignore the natural play of the game shift to shift, let go of line chemistry, and just focus on the shut down system... or else. The worst part being that "or else" leads to a loss in the standings, a loss of ice time, and a loss of confidence every time we don't play perfect defense because the puck never ends up back in the offensive zone.

It doesn't help that our team is still terrible at clearing the puck out of our zone, but I guess it's better to learn how to do that as league bottom feeder than focus on what we're actually good at as a team?

I've never been that opposed to Murray's coaching as far as how he treats the individual players, but why would anyone in that locker room play with a "must win" "whatever it takes" attitude when the coach is matching lines and shutting down his offensive system the moment it earns a lead.

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12-12-2009, 10:47 PM
  #59
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To be a winner, you have to have confidence as a team, that if you play YOUR GAME, no one can stop you. You have to "expect" to win, every time you go out on the ice. With the other team believing that, as well, you have little chance to win if you don't believe it. With Murray's strategies, tactics and rules, deep down, The Blues don't believe they can win. They don't control games for 60 minutes, and must depend on their goalies, and dumb luck. In this situation, it's almost a miracle that they have as many points as they do now.

I'm surprised that the players haven't had a mutiny, when they are instructed to "get off the ice-no matter what's going on" when they reach X number of seconds (is it 40?). I can't count how many times I've seen a Blues forward peel off to the bench when he should have been the trailer on a 2-on-1 or 3-on-2. No WONDER the Blues are having trouble scoring! They lose several great scoring chances each game! That is INTOLERABLE! If I were the owner, I'd order JD to give Murray an ultimatum. Murray has already agreed to make related changes, and has done very little to move in that direction. He has failed the test. The players ARE NOT responding to him any more, and he is stifling them.

If Murray stays for the remainder of this season much damage will occur. I dread what will result. They need to can him, and a trade is needed as well.

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