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NHL vs. KHL = new Summit Series?

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Old
09-07-2008, 12:47 PM
  #51
ranndino
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Puddy View Post
There are better Russians playing in the NHL than there are playing in the KHL. Here are some lines, pairings and goalies that I threw together using only Soviet-born NHL players, all of whom I believe will play in the NHL in 2008-09.

Alex Ovechkin - Evgeni Malkin - Alex Kovalev
Ilya Kovalchuk - Pavel Datsyuk - Alexander Semin
Alexander Frolov - Nik Antropov - Maxim Afinogenov
Nikolai Zherdev - Sergei Federov - Dainius Zubrus

Andrei Markov - Sergei Gonchar
Sergei Zubov - Ruslan Salei
Fedor Tyutin - Alexei Zhitnik

Evgeni Nabokov
Ilya Bryzgalov

Can the KHL ice better talent than that lineup?
This is not very relevant to the discussion, but Zhitnik is currently playing for Dinamo Moscow in the KHL.

Overall, most of the people commenting on the Canadian side exhibit complete lack of knowledge and are full of empty boasting and obnoxious name calling. The truth is that we don't really know how KHL teams would fare vs. the NHL.

Granted that it's only one game and the Rangers would be at a disadvantage since it would be pre-season for them, but we'll actually get to see a KHL club play an NHL club very soon in the Victoria Cup. Metallurg Magnitogorsk, the current European Cup champions will take on the New York Rangers at the end of this month.

The idea in the future is for Victoria Cup to be played between the reigning Stanley Cup champions and the reigning European Cup champions, so the idea many of you have called ridiculous is already on the way.

Lastly, to say that the KHL can't compete with the NHL because no KHL club could stand up to the Detroit Red Wings is ironic. Please name me an NHL club that can. From watching last season's NHL playoffs such club does not exist. Even the Pittsburgh Penguins who pretty much rolled through the Eastern Conference were made to look like a team from a lower league in the final. Even in the two games that they won they were thoroughly outplayed and their wins were only due to some luck and great goaltending by Fleury.

One more thing. If you look at most NHL clubs these days and you take all of their Europeans away you're left with not a whole lot, so those Canadians who I see on every board babbling about how it would be great if all the Euros leave so that good ol' Canadian boys can take their place... if that were really to happen the KHL would not only be able to compete with the NHL. It would be superior. Almost all the top scorers in the NHL these days are Euros.

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09-07-2008, 02:26 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by ranndino View Post
This is not very relevant to the discussion, but Zhitnik is currently playing for Dinamo Moscow in the KHL.

Overall, most of the people commenting on the Canadian side exhibit complete lack of knowledge and are full of empty boasting and obnoxious name calling. The truth is that we don't really know how KHL teams would fare vs. the NHL.
I did not realize there was a "Canadian" side. It's about leagues, the NHL and the KHL. One can presume that both leagues will be multinational in make up, correct?

Quote:
Granted that it's only one game and the Rangers would be at a disadvantage since it would be pre-season for them, but we'll actually get to see a KHL club play an NHL club very soon in the Victoria Cup. Metallurg Magnitogorsk, the current European Cup champions will take on the New York Rangers at the end of this month.

The idea in the future is for Victoria Cup to be played between the reigning Stanley Cup champions and the reigning European Cup champions, so the idea many of you have called ridiculous is already on the way.
Please provide a link that confirms the NHL agreeing to this.

Furthermore, I'm pretty sure the Wings management would not agree to assemble their team for one of these European vacations. There's nothing to be gained from it. In fact, I'm fairly certain when the plans for this year's European openers were being discussed, the Wings declined to have anything to do with it.

You also are not presenting a single business reason WHY the NHL should participate.


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One more thing. If you look at most NHL clubs these days and you take all of their Europeans away you're left with not a whole lot, so those Canadians who I see on every board babbling about how it would be great if all the Euros leave so that good ol' Canadian boys can take their place... if that were really to happen the KHL would not only be able to compete with the NHL. It would be superior. Almost all the top scorers in the NHL these days are Euros.
This is beside the point in the Business forum. We are talking about league competition here, not national teams. The KHL does not have Datsyuk, Zetterberg, or Lidstrom. The Red Wings have them, and as far as anyone can tell, they're all staying in the NHL.

The question is about which league has better players overall (presumably the NHL); and why this league should or should not consider playing its best players or teams against the KHL equivalents. In this scenario, the NHL gets to retain the guys who chose to sign and play in the NHL, European or not.

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09-07-2008, 04:18 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
I did not realize there was a "Canadian" side. It's about leagues, the NHL and the KHL. One can presume that both leagues will be multinational in make up, correct?

Please provide a link that confirms the NHL agreeing to this.

Furthermore, I'm pretty sure the Wings management would not agree to assemble their team for one of these European vacations. There's nothing to be gained from it. In fact, I'm fairly certain when the plans for this year's European openers were being discussed, the Wings declined to have anything to do with it.

[B]You also are not presenting a single business reason WHY the NHL should participate.

A business reason I could see for this would "testing the waters" for the on again off again mentioned possibility of EU expansion of the NHL. See how much interest they get from the other side of the pond with this possiblity,feasability, ect.

Just wanted to comment on the statement about the Wings management(or any NHL team management)-do you think Fugu this could be part of the reason why there is a movement by the NHL to "centralize" the sport- that way the NHL could eventually say "you don't go to Europe-tough, you're going anyway" to the teams? Of course the NHLPA would get involved, ect, ect, but I could see centralization used as a sneaky way of maybe having a say in what teams do, whether they like or not.

Had to edit, as this was about the EU champs playing a NHL team, not the KHL and not necessarily the Stanley Cup champs(my error- thanks snoil11 )-which actually brings me to the other point about centralization and a potential dispute in trying to tell an NHL team that they're going to EU.


Last edited by Tinalera: 09-07-2008 at 04:56 PM.
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09-07-2008, 04:45 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Please provide a link that confirms the NHL agreeing to this.
It's not the Stanley Cup winner, but it seems, that the NHL at least agreed to send at least one of its team to play the reigning CHL-champion:

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The Victoria Cup is an annual game played between one or more European teams - determined by the Champions Hockey League (for the 2008-2009 season by the 2008 European Champions Cup respectively) - and one or more NHL challengers.
http://www.iihf.com/home-of-hockey/c...toria-cup.html

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09-07-2008, 08:04 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Snoil11 View Post
It's not the Stanley Cup winner, but it seems, that the NHL at least agreed to send at least one of its team to play the reigning CHL-champion:

http://www.iihf.com/home-of-hockey/c...toria-cup.html

Thanks, Snoil. I was pretty certain that no promises had been made about sending the Stanley Cup champion. I'll hunt around but I think Ken Holland was pretty reluctant to have the Wings participate in the season openers in Europe (even before they won the Cup). Without the NHL wanting to open -->it's<-- season in Europe, I'm not so sure they would do it just for the Victoria Cup.

Thus, we still are lacking a theory on what would motivate the NHL to do something like this, mainly for its sake.

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09-07-2008, 08:13 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Tinalera View Post

Just wanted to comment on the statement about the Wings management(or any NHL team management)-do you think Fugu this could be part of the reason why there is a movement by the NHL to "centralize" the sport- that way the NHL could eventually say "you don't go to Europe-tough, you're going anyway" to the teams? Of course the NHLPA would get involved, ect, ect, but I could see centralization used as a sneaky way of maybe having a say in what teams do, whether they like or not.
I still believe that the NHL is a collective of the teams' governors. Bettman wouldn't do this because he woke up one day and thought he had a great, new idea that the BOG in general didn't support, so he was just going to tell them how it was going to go. It is possible that a team finds itself in the minority however given the geography I still think it's a hard sell for Europe. The Ducks had a horrible start last year thanks to their week in Europe, then an East Coast swing before getting home. They were reeling for a while. Thus, it isn't really fair to make one team "carry" the NHL mantle and then have to come back and join a season already progress. As for having such an event at any other time of year.... we discussed a bit of that above. The NHL season is already quite long. By the time it ends, the draft, free agency, arbitration, etc., are all upon the teams. I don't see the benefit of having anything going on during the summer as a means to drum up - or measure - interest in Europe. There is no other period of time that is open either.

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09-07-2008, 09:15 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Thus, we still are lacking a theory on what would motivate the NHL to do something like this, mainly for its sake.
Come on, Fugu, the theory is well known albeit rather controversial: Expansion to Europe (according to the 'national footprint'-strategy, we might also call it the 'European footprint'-strategy).
And even if the NHL does not consider an expansion to Europe possible due to the various reasons already discussed on this board, the 'old continent' is still wealthy and large enough to be of interest to the NHL.
There might be more pressing issues on the table right now, but since some of the other Majors also intensify their European plans and the KHL revealed, that they plan to expand to Western Europe, the NHL is well adviced to show up in Europe to keep up with their American and Russian competitors.


Last edited by Snoil11: 09-07-2008 at 09:27 PM.
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09-07-2008, 09:58 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Snoil11 View Post
Come on, Fugu, the theory is well known albeit rather controversial: Expansion to Europe (according to the 'national footprint'-strategy, we might also call it the 'European footprint'-strategy).
And even if the NHL does not consider an expansion to Europe possible due to the various reasons already discussed on this board, the 'old continent' is still wealthy and large enough to be of interest to the NHL.
There might be more pressing issues on the table right now, but since some of the other Majors also intensify their European plans and the KHL revealed, that they plan to expand to Western Europe, the NHL is well adviced to show up in Europe to keep up with their American and Russian competitors.
Ah, but I think you are mixing up two issues. Yes, perhaps the NHL would be interested in European expansion. As distasteful as a traditionalist like me finds this idea, there are those who think it has some business merit.

However, why play the KHL? Some have suggested that the KHL is a competitor to such an expansion. Europeans tended to have single country leagues for the most part. They might in fact prefer their local leagues, but let's assume that they'd like the EU-ization of their hockey as well! Along this vein, they might prefer a home-grown effort over some North American invasion (perhaps, maybe, maybe not).

How does "promoting" the KHL help the NHL achieve its goal IF indeed that goal is to expand to Europe? You'd think that they'd want very little to do with them.

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09-07-2008, 11:12 PM
  #59
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I think we talk at cross-purposes, as I do not directly refer to the idea of a new Summit Series respectively KHL vs. NHL games, but canvass more NHL-exposure in Europe and believe, that the Victoria Cup benefits the NHL more than the KHL.
First, the NHL will not play the KHL-champion, but the CHL-champion. I however concede, that it is very likely, that the CHL-champion will be a KHL team. Nevertheless, there remains the option, that the NHL team will face a non-Russian, non-KHL team.
Secondly, the Cup is operated by the IIHF and not by the KHL. This circumstance should guarantee, that the games will be located in Western European countries, so hockey fans will regard this games as another opportunity to watch a NHL-team live. People are desperate to watch a NHL team and the star players and do not care, whether the opponent is a local team, the KHL-team or the CHL-champion.


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09-08-2008, 09:33 AM
  #60
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Mod-edit: deleted. This is the Business of Hockey Board, not the general NHL-Talk. You can discuss potential NHL-All-Star-line-ups for such a game THERE.



Quote:
Originally Posted by ranndino View Post
This is not very relevant to the discussion, but Zhitnik is currently playing for Dinamo Moscow in the KHL.

Overall, most of the people commenting on the Canadian side exhibit complete lack of knowledge and are full of empty boasting and obnoxious name calling. The truth is that we don't really know how KHL teams would fare vs. the NHL.
Thanks for point that out about Zhitnik. I didn't know that he had left the NHL.

My point for assembling an NHL lineup of Russian players was to show that the best Russian players in the world play in the NHL. I don't think the talent level of the KHL compares favorably to the Russian players of the NHL.


Last edited by Snoil11: 09-08-2008 at 09:48 AM.
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11-30-2009, 01:11 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
I did not realize there was a "Canadian" side. It's about leagues, the NHL and the KHL. One can presume that both leagues will be multinational in make up, correct?
I thought it was pretty clear that what I meant by Canadian side were posts on the subject by Canadians in this thread.

The business reason for such a game is to showcase hockey to a larger audience as such a game would attract attention of people who normally don't watch hockey, just like the previous Summit Series did. I myself became a hockey fan after watching the Rendezvous Series at the age of 12. You're being very small minded when you are saying that there's no reason to do it. I don't know about you, but to me international competition always makes watching any sport more exciting.

The only reason the NHL might not want to stage something like this is for fear of the KHL doing well in it thus destroying the false belief that the NHL is a much superior league that most Canadians who commented seem to have. Some of these commenters should look back at history and they will find very similar statements made by Canadians prior to the first Summit Series, including those in the media. In fact, one even promised to eat his own hat if the Soviets win even one game. To his credit he followed on this promise. I hope it tasted good.

As for how it would fit into a busy schedule, a short 3-game series can be held instead of the stupid, meaningless All-Star game that no one gives a crap about.

Lastly, to the comment about the NHL Network. I wholeheartedly agree. It should show more international hockey. So far, to its credit, it has shown NCAA & Junior hockey including the last 2 World Junior Championships, but it still does not show Euro league games. I would point to the NBA TV, which does indeed show not only major international tournaments, but also Euro Basket games. It is simply good for the sport. The NBA understands that, the NHL doesn't seem to. Close minded provincialism is never good.

I think the reason the NHL will probably never show KHL games is the same. They have to keep up the notion that KHL is a crappy league. If knowledgeable hockey fans in NA actually get a chance to watch KHL games for themselves their opinions might change. I do get a chance to see both leagues and I think the KHL level of play is quiet good, especially this season (it's 2nd) and is certainly much better than the AHL. Like I said earlier some of the people on here who trash the KHL simply have no idea what they're talking about. How can you say anything about the level of play if you've never seen even 1 game?

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11-30-2009, 01:19 AM
  #62
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Id love to see a Stanley Cup Champ vs KHL champ match. I think they should do it.
The Stanley Cup champ would romp... unless they were all too hungover from just winning the Cup.

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11-30-2009, 02:40 AM
  #63
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I thought it was pretty clear that what I meant by Canadian side were posts on the subject by Canadians in this thread.
the point is that you are attacking a country for some reason when it is an issue of NHL fans vs KHL fans. This takes away from your argument (which is mostly valid).
Quote:
The business reason for such a game is to showcase hockey to a larger audience as such a game would attract attention of people who normally don't watch hockey, just like the previous Summit Series did. I myself became a hockey fan after watching the Rendezvous Series at the age of 12. You're being very small minded when you are saying that there's no reason to do it. I don't know about you, but to me international competition always makes watching any sport more exciting.
The question is whether there is any benefit to the NHL to do it. Would the extra revenues involved make up for the potential of injury to star NHL players? Would the players union go for it? What are the potential repercussions of losing this series? The NHL is already percieved to be on to in terms of talent and is certainly on top in terms of revenue and viewership, so why do anything to risk that from an NHL side? Do they really see significantly increased revenue streams from a series like this?
Quote:
The only reason the NHL might not want to stage something like this is for fear of the KHL doing well in it thus destroying the false belief that the NHL is a much superior league that most Canadians who commented seem to have. Some of these commentors should look back at history and they will find very similar statements made by Canadians prior to the first Summit Series, including those in the media. In fact, one even promised to eat his own hat if the Soviets win even one game. To his credit he followed on this promise. I hope it tasted good.
Again, you are damaging your argument with the language you use. I would call the notion that the NHL is a superior league unsubstantiated, but calling it false implies that is is factually wrong.
Quote:
As for how it would fit into a busy schedule, a short 3-game series can be held instead of the stupid, meaningless All-Star game that no one gives a crap about.
Why would the NHL choose to replace an event that generates revenue for itself only with an event where they would have to split revenue?
Quote:
Lastly, to the comment about the NHL Network. I wholeheartedly agree. It should show more international hockey. So far, to its credit, it has shown NCAA & Junior hockey including the last 2 World Junior Championships, but it still does not show Euro league games. I would point to the NBA TV, which does indeed show not only major international tournaments, but also Euro Basket games. It is simply good for the sport. The NBA understands that, the NHL doesn't seem to. Close minded provincialism is never good.

I think the reason the NHL will probably never show KHL games is the same. They have to keep up the notion that KHL is a crappy league. If knowledgeable hockey fans in NA actually get a chance to watch KHL games for themselves their opinions might change. I do get a chance to see both leagues and I think the KHL level of play is quiet good, especially this season (it's 2nd) and is certainly much better than the AHL. Like I said earlier some of the people on here who trash the KHL simply have no idea what they're talking about. How can you say anything about the level of play if you've never seen even 1 game?
Again, some good points are brought up but completely negated by your combative attitude.

NHL network is NHL-owned, so the primary goal is exposing more people to NHL games and other NHL content. They obviously recognize the demand for international content as well, and have started to show more iihf events. On the other hand, what benefit do they get from showing a competitor's league? NBA tv is a great parallel, but it took them years to start showing international games, and even now they usually only show them once a week. NBA tv shows way more 'lifestyle programming' than they do international basketball. One reason i can think of is that they have to PAY to get broadcast rights for those games. Do you think its a good idea for the NHL to PAY the KHL for the right to broadcast their games in NA when they already own the rights to anything else they are broadcasting? The demand would have to be huge for that to be worth it for the NHL, and in that case the KHL would probably be better off signing a deal with a channel like versus.

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11-30-2009, 11:38 AM
  #64
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Love to see a NAmerican vs Europe 8 game, total points, super series.

Game 1 - Toronto
Game 2 - Washington
Game 3 - Helsinki
Game 4 - Prague
Game 5 - Stockholm
Game 6 - Moscow
Game 7 - Montreal
Game 8 - New York

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12-05-2009, 02:56 PM
  #65
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Some people compare NHL and KHL all star teams here, which is certainly an unequal comparison, and that format would not be realistic or interesting. But a NA tour of two KHL teams 4 games each would be great even right now. The problem is timing since the KHL season starts before the NA pre-season games.

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12-05-2009, 03:28 PM
  #66
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but imagine all of those russian guys staying in Russia, that list along with the best of the KHL would crush the NHL....That's the future, or at least the KHL's plan for the future.
The 28 Russians would "crush" the NHL?

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12-05-2009, 05:41 PM
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even though my post that got deleted got the point across much better i'll reiterate why the KHL is an obvious threat to NHL business interests and will most likely be highly competitive with the NHL in the future: Gazprom

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12-05-2009, 06:01 PM
  #68
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even though my post that got deleted got the point across much better i'll reiterate why the KHL is an obvious threat to NHL business interests and will most likely be highly competitive with the NHL in the future: Gazprom
http://www.gazprom.com/about/

How does a company have any relationship to hockey or the KHL?

Are they an owner? Sponsor? Planning world domination?

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12-05-2009, 06:06 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by LadyStanley View Post
http://www.gazprom.com/about/

How does a company have any relationship to hockey or the KHL?

Are they an owner? Sponsor? Planning world domination?
i think he was going for this link: http://www.gazprom.com/management/board/medvedev/

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12-05-2009, 07:52 PM
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Sponsor?
Yes, of many things in the KHL. They own SKA, are partial sponsors of several other teams, if not all of them (through SoGaz Insurance Group), likely bare the brunt of the League's expenses (organization, promotion, administrative salaries) inject money in problematic teams (Lada), etc.

Not to mention that there is also also Rosneft (the biggest oil producer in Russia), Tatneft (oil) that owns two teams, Russian railways (one team), Norilsknikel, a couple of major ironworks, several major banks, etc, a bunch of minor sponsors like Toyota and Nikon, backing the league.

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12-06-2009, 06:57 AM
  #71
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Are they an owner? Sponsor? Planning world domination?
The last one comes really close.

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12-08-2009, 11:22 PM
  #72
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I don't know if this article was already posted, but check this out - http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/blog/puc...urn=nhl,202208

It talks about the caps owner as well as Medvedev pushing for the capitals to play some KHL games. It's a cool idea, but there doesn't seem to be a time frame...Basically Bettman wants nothing to do with it, but at the same time he wants to keep Leonsis, capitals owner happy.
Also, what are Medvedev's plans in buying an NHL team? I don't understand his strategy here - support the competition?

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12-14-2009, 01:05 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by LadyStanley View Post
http://www.gazprom.com/about/

How does a company have any relationship to hockey or the KHL?

Are they an owner? Sponsor? Planning world domination?
Yes.

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