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Real reasons this team is where it is

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Old
12-15-2009, 11:30 PM
  #1
bstreetbully
 
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Real reasons this team is where it is

I'll start with the following:

Myth: Our roster is deep & loaded with talent.

Fact: The Flyers lack star power. To contend for and actually win a cup you need stars, we have none. Pittsburgh wins a cup with Crosby & Malkin. I'll stop there. Detroit wins multiple cups with Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Yzerman, Federov, and Lidstrom. Nuff said. What about the Devils you say....they won cups and continue to be contenders most years because their success is about a SYSTEM instead of having 6 individuals score 30 goals each in the regular season and then stand around and watch Claude Giroux be the best player last postseason.

Myth: Stevens needs to go, this team has no system.

Fact: As it continues to play itself out, this teams lack of star power and leadership is why it is so bad. Absent MAJOR roster changes, we're no better than a 5 or 6 seed in this conference. That is Homers fault, not John Stevens.

Myth: We signed Pronger and Emery in the off season, we're better.

Fact: Better on paper, yes. Too bad the NHL is played on ice, not paper. See wikipedia definition for "Paper Tiger"

Bottom Line: We need major roster changes and a GM who will retool this team FROM THE NET OUT. I'm sick and tired of hearing about depth, rolling 4 lines, six 30 goal scorers, sold out home games, trips down memory lane, tradition, and chants of "hit somebody Carcillo" at every home game. We should have fired the GM instead of the coach.

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Old
12-15-2009, 11:40 PM
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We thought we had a couple of stars in Carter (46g, 84p last year...) and Richards (30G, 80p) that haven't been showing up anywhere near as much this year.

We brought in Pronger, a supposedly bona-fide #1 star Dman.

That's at least 3 stars that haven't been playing well as of late.

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Old
12-16-2009, 12:17 AM
  #3
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So what would you suggest? Blow up the team and start over? This is a slump people, a bad one yes, but the Flyers have star players. Carter was on the verge at the end of last season. Richards is there. Briere is a past star who still has the ability to be a star. Pronger is a star. Timonen is a top 20 dman in this league which is pretty damn close to being a star.

Do you suggest we trade 2 or 3 of these guys to get who? Kovalchuk? We'd be no better than the Thrashers, who may be playing better than us now, but in the long run, I'd rather keep these guys, weather the storm and see what happens.

This isn't about whether these guys are stars or not, it's about how they should stop being selfish for whatever petty reasons and start to work together on the ice.

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Old
12-16-2009, 12:18 AM
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bstreetbully View Post
I'll start with the following:

Myth: Our roster is deep & loaded with talent.

Fact: The Flyers lack star power. To contend for and actually win a cup you need stars, we have none. Pittsburgh wins a cup with Crosby & Malkin. I'll stop there. Detroit wins multiple cups with Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Yzerman, Federov, and Lidstrom. Nuff said. What about the Devils you say....they won cups and continue to be contenders most years because their success is about a SYSTEM instead of having 6 individuals score 30 goals each in the regular season and then stand around and watch Claude Giroux be the best player last postseason.

Myth: Stevens needs to go, this team has no system.

Fact: As it continues to play itself out, this teams lack of star power and leadership is why it is so bad. Absent MAJOR roster changes, we're no better than a 5 or 6 seed in this conference. That is Homers fault, not John Stevens.

Myth: We signed Pronger and Emery in the off season, we're better.

Fact: Better on paper, yes. Too bad the NHL is played on ice, not paper. See wikipedia definition for "Paper Tiger"

Bottom Line: We need major roster changes and a GM who will retool this team FROM THE NET OUT. I'm sick and tired of hearing about depth, rolling 4 lines, six 30 goal scorers, sold out home games, trips down memory lane, tradition, and chants of "hit somebody Carcillo" at every home game. We should have fired the GM instead of the coach.
I disagree with almost everything you said.

We do have stars. Our stars just aren't playing like stars. They're not doing their jobs thus we're not winning. Our stars are our core so it just makes sense that when they play bad the team plays bad. What do you call Richards, Carter, and Pronger? Are they not stars? Then you have guys like Briere and Timonen who are pseudo-stars. Guys like Malkin and Crosby are top three players in the league. They're superstars. Which is completely different.

We have the same core from the last two years that literally lead us to the playoffs (the ECF two years ago). How can you say our leadership is the problem when our leadership lead us to the playoffs for two straight years and to the top five teams in the East one year ago? Leadership is a ********, overrated thing that people like to scapegoat this teams failures on. You can't quantify leadership and the only people who have any sort of clue who the leaders are are the people on the team, in the locker room, not us. Leadership isn't the problem. The problem is that our "leaders" aren't playing up to their potential.

Also, I'm not sure whether you're saying we didn't make any major changes or whether we made major changes.

Signing Pronger, Betts, Lappy, etc. should have made us better, yes. However, Richards, Carter, Coburn, and arguably Hartnell and Gagne all decided to regress at once. That more then off-sets any positive personnel changes we made in the off-season. Goaltending is a pseudo-wash.

The reason that off-season predictions are made "on paper" is because you can't account for unknown variables like injuries, regression, progression, etc. Unfortunately no one saw our star players regressing in the off-season and no one can predict injuries.

All of that stuff that you mentioned that your sick of hearing, well, some if it is pretty random (people yelling at Carcillo to hit people?) and the rest of it is stuff that was said last year or at the beginning of the season (when we were good).

Most people wouldn't disagree that our GM has been iffy, but you can't fault the GM for our entire team playing like crap. How's he supposed to know that literally almost everything that could have gone wrong would have gone wrong?

Most people would also disagree that we shouldn't have fired Stevens (me being one of them). I've never seen a fan-base so universally hate their coach. Just because we're not winning with a new coach doesn't mean that our old coach was any better.

Before you trade away all of our star players (or non-star players in your case) you should be patient for a bit more and see if they snap out of this funk. If they don't, then you can retool.

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Old
12-16-2009, 12:49 AM
  #5
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Less than half the season has been played, you're in a big time funk, are missing some players who maybe should not mean that much but sure make you harder to play, and you have just changed your coach.

Certainly, the talent level on the Flyers is far too high to be where you are now in standings, but the good part is that you are having this funk early enough that its unreasonable to expect the team not turning it around, and at the same time the East has just a small number of bonafide elite teams and a lot of mediocre ones. Case in point - two points out with two games in hand.
Flyers ought to be among the elite in the East performance wise, and probably will be again then the playoffs roll around.
Then the only problem will be that your poor performance now all but assures that you get a tough playoff matchup right off the bat, but with Pens and the Devils in the division, that risk was always high even if you'd been doing as you should.

Sure, most us Pens fans revel in your misfortune, but its far too early for the Flyers to go big time panicky with the conference standings being what it is, and considering what your core group has been doing over the past two years.

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Old
12-16-2009, 12:57 AM
  #6
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Originally Posted by There's only one 66 View Post
Less than half the season has been played, you're in a big time funk, are missing some players who maybe should not mean that much but sure make you harder to play, and you have just changed your coach.

Certainly, the talent level on the Flyers is far too high to be where you are now in standings, but the good part is that you are having this funk early enough that its unreasonable to expect the team not turning it around, and at the same time the East has just a small number of bonafide elite teams and a lot of mediocre ones. Case in point - two points out with two games in hand.
Flyers ought to be among the elite in the East performance wise, and probably will be again then the playoffs roll around.
Then the only problem will be that your poor performance now all but assures that you get a tough playoff matchup right off the bat, but with Pens and the Devils in the division, that risk was always high even if you'd been doing as you should.

Sure, most us Pens fans revel in your misfortune, but its far too early for the Flyers to go big time panicky with the conference standings being what it is, and considering what your core group has been doing over the past two years.
I dont envy how the Penguins were built through all the terrible seasons and high draft picks but I must admit, the flyers are a long way from becoming as solid as a "team" as they are.

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Old
12-16-2009, 01:02 AM
  #7
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The Penguins play a team game.

The Flyers are yes, able to do that. However, as of late, they have not.

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12-16-2009, 03:06 AM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bstreetbully View Post
I'll start with the following:

Myth: Our roster is deep & loaded with talent.

Fact: The Flyers lack star power. To contend for and actually win a cup you need stars, we have none. Pittsburgh wins a cup with Crosby & Malkin. I'll stop there. Detroit wins multiple cups with Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Yzerman, Federov, and Lidstrom. Nuff said. What about the Devils you say....they won cups and continue to be contenders most years because their success is about a SYSTEM instead of having 6 individuals score 30 goals each in the regular season and then stand around and watch Claude Giroux be the best player last postseason.

Myth: Stevens needs to go, this team has no system.

Fact: As it continues to play itself out, this teams lack of star power and leadership is why it is so bad. Absent MAJOR roster changes, we're no better than a 5 or 6 seed in this conference. That is Homers fault, not John Stevens.

Myth: We signed Pronger and Emery in the off season, we're better.

Fact: Better on paper, yes. Too bad the NHL is played on ice, not paper. See wikipedia definition for "Paper Tiger"

Bottom Line: We need major roster changes and a GM who will retool this team FROM THE NET OUT. I'm sick and tired of hearing about depth, rolling 4 lines, six 30 goal scorers, sold out home games, trips down memory lane, tradition, and chants of "hit somebody Carcillo" at every home game. We should have fired the GM instead of the coach.
Oh my bad... I thought this was going to be a thread containing legitimate reasons why this team is underachieving.

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Old
12-16-2009, 04:26 AM
  #9
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Originally Posted by fire bettman View Post
Oh my bad... I thought this was going to be a thread containing legitimate reasons why this team is underachieving.
I was going to post the Thread Failed stamp right away, but was too lazy.

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Old
12-16-2009, 06:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bstreetbully View Post
I'll start with the following:

Myth: Our roster is deep & loaded with talent.

Fact: The Flyers lack star power. To contend for and actually win a cup you need stars, we have none. Pittsburgh wins a cup with Crosby & Malkin. I'll stop there. Detroit wins multiple cups with Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Yzerman, Federov, and Lidstrom. Nuff said. What about the Devils you say....they won cups and continue to be contenders most years because their success is about a SYSTEM instead of having 6 individuals score 30 goals each in the regular season and then stand around and watch Claude Giroux be the best player last postseason.

I stopped here with the fact that we need start players to win and that New Jersey doesn't.

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Old
12-16-2009, 07:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bstreetbully View Post
I'll start with the following:

Myth: Our roster is deep & loaded with talent.

Fact: The Flyers lack star power.
They do lack that player who can lift them out of doldrums.

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Old
12-16-2009, 07:24 AM
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We had a worse slump than this two years ago but got over it and went to the ECF.

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12-16-2009, 08:17 AM
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I dont know why everyone considers Carter and Richards "stars" in the pretence the OP is stating. Neither of these two guys are "stars" in the league. One is a streaky sniper and the other is a well rounded captain grinder/playmaker hybrid. Neither of these players can be a STAR and take over a game. Neither of these players can beat a man 1v1. I had the same arguments last year with this team, we have no real playmakers/danglers on this team. The only players that show any promise in being stars are JVR And Giroux but they are too young to take the torch. The only player we had last year that could even enter the ****ing zone with the puck on his tape was Lupul.

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12-16-2009, 08:23 AM
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Richards and Carter, by way of the media are the FLYERS' stars. They aren't Crosby/Ovie/Malkin, but they are our stars. They are who define our club and are what this team is built around.

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12-16-2009, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Cleary84 View Post
Richards and Carter, by way of the media are the FLYERS' stars. They aren't Crosby/Ovie/Malkin, but they are our stars. They are who define our club and are what this team is built around.
JVR and Giroux have a higher ceiling then both of them... In two years they will be the clear stars of this team.

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Old
12-16-2009, 08:26 AM
  #16
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Originally Posted by Cleary84 View Post
Richards and Carter, by way of the media are the FLYERS' stars. They aren't Crosby/Ovie/Malkin, but they are our stars. They are who define our club and are what this team is built around.
Really? I think underachieving is what defines our club. Two guys that care more about *****, 40s, and olde city, should not be our "stars."

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12-16-2009, 08:58 AM
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I wish I could say that last night's 6-1 debacle in Pittsburgh was just one of those bad games that happen to every club over the course of a season. Even in measuring stick games where there's plenty of motivation, sometimes your team doesn't have it. It could be due to fatigue or simply the other team playing an outstanding game, but there will be nights where the team gets outskated and generally outplayed.

What happened last night, though, was further evidence that this Flyers team lacks both the work ethic and competitiveness to even make the pretense of being a club worthy of challenging the defending Stanley Cup champions.

There is never an excuse not to compete, never a justification for an NHL team to allow so many oddman rushes and easy goals, never a rationale for half-hearted backchecking. Where's the professional pride? The Flyers gave up a power play goal and two shorthanded goals last night and it could have been even worse. Bernie Parent in his prime couldn't have rescued the club last night.

The trio of Arron Asham, Riley Cote and Dan Carcillo did their best to give the team any sort of spark by dropping the gloves in the first period (and Carcillo even scored a power play goal), and the team still didn't respond.

Things have gotten to the point where efforts such as these are no longer surprising. Extremely disappointing, yes, but not surprising. - Bill Meltzer over at HockeyBuzz
This is summing up how i feel right about now.

I guess my only question is, is this a locker room issue? Is our locker room divided? I almost feel like its starting to be, between the family man players and the younger single guys. Im digging deep at this point for any answers. But watching on TV as of late, it does not even appear as though the young players are talking to older guys and the same way back. I still think if they can turn it around by the winter classic we are fine. But Carter especially, im starting to not even like the guys attitude. Thus not like him.

Maybe its as awful as mets fans as blaming there failures on that fact that there clubhouse was divided by the American players and the Hispanics

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Old
12-16-2009, 08:59 AM
  #18
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I stopped here with the fact that we need start players to win and that New Jersey doesn't.
I think you meant star players. You are correct in your statement. We don't play as a team or have anything close to a system that a team like NJ has so YES, we need legitimate NHL stars to contend and possibly win a cup.

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Originally Posted by DeadPhish5858 View Post
We had a worse slump than this two years ago but got over it and went to the ECF.
Please don't be fooled because we caught lightning in a bottle two years ago. Their first round exit last year and struggles this year prove this team isn't nearly as good as people thought (including the GM).

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I dont know why everyone considers Carter and Richards "stars" in the pretence the OP is stating. Neither of these two guys are "stars" in the league. One is a streaky sniper and the other is a well rounded captain grinder/playmaker hybrid. Neither of these players can be a STAR and take over a game. Neither of these players can beat a man 1v1.
Exactly. Just because you are the top player on a team doesn't mean you measure up across the league when it comes to legitimate star players.

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Originally Posted by harakiri View Post
JVR and Giroux have a higher ceiling then both of them... In two years they will be the clear stars of this team.
Giroux was the best player on this team in the playoffs last year. When a kid who is basically still in diapers does that, your star power is lacking and you're going nowhere.

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Originally Posted by JSTAFF View Post
Two guys that care more about *****, 40s, and olde city, should not be our "stars."
Couldn't agree more. It's part of the reason Upshall and Lupul are gone. Didn't Clarke once say something along the lines of "people need to stop worrying about what kind of car they have in their driveway" when criticizing Chris Gratton?

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Old
12-16-2009, 09:48 AM
  #19
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Weaker scoring depth + more young inconsistent players.

Our young stars are struggling at the weight of carrying this team right now.

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Old
12-16-2009, 09:55 AM
  #20
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/slaps forehead

He's right! We've been doing it all wrong, let's build our team around 2 top 5 Superstars next year and everything will be fine!

The answer has been there all along, it flew right under the nose!






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Old
12-16-2009, 11:59 AM
  #21
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I think the root of these problems go deeper than any of us want to believe.
In all honesty, i believe that this team's downfall IS it's supposed star players. I think that the young core group of guys on this team are very immature. It all revolves around who else? Richards, Carter and Hartnell. I seriously question their leadership and maturity. They are unable to showup and play a team game because they're unable to respect the fact that it's what needs to be done. Their priorities lay elsewhere, such as in spite. In spite of their good ol' buddy Johnny being fired. We saw Richards colors in the Hitchcock situation. I think that they'll refuse to play into Lavy's system because it might not appeal to them or benefit them as individuals and I think that the older and more experienced players realize this. Which is why we sense so much aggrivation in the tones of Pronger and Laperriere.

Does anyone else see this, or am i paranoid?

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Old
12-16-2009, 12:24 PM
  #22
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Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
Weaker scoring depth + more young inconsistent players.

Our young stars are struggling at the weight of carrying this team right now.
i see it is the younger stars doing what they can with no real showing of leadership, i still think making richards captain was a horrible decision.

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Old
12-16-2009, 12:35 PM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardsCannon View Post
I think the root of these problems go deeper than any of us want to believe.
In all honesty, i believe that this team's downfall IS it's supposed star players. I think that the young core group of guys on this team are very immature. It all revolves around who else? Richards, Carter and Hartnell. I seriously question their leadership and maturity. They are unable to showup and play a team game because they're unable to respect the fact that it's what needs to be done. Their priorities lay elsewhere, such as in spite. In spite of their good ol' buddy Johnny being fired. We saw Richards colors in the Hitchcock situation. I think that they'll refuse to play into Lavy's system because it might not appeal to them or benefit them as individuals and I think that the older and more experienced players realize this. Which is why we sense so much aggrivation in the tones of Pronger and Laperriere.

Does anyone else see this, or am i paranoid?
The problem with your argument is that the team was in a slump before they fired Stevens. I think it has more to do with leadership, and the young guys.

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Old
12-16-2009, 12:39 PM
  #24
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Originally Posted by DeadPhish5858 View Post
We had a worse slump than this two years ago but got over it and went to the ECF.
I'm sticking by the hope that this happens this year. Although I still think we need Jim Dowd to come out of retirement for that to happen.

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12-16-2009, 02:43 PM
  #25
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Guys, in my mind this is really simple, at a high level, as for the gory details we will never know....This team has had two issues:

1) Systemic issues as far as how this team plays on the ice.....The players have never appeared to know where they need to be on the ice even when playing well throughout the past couple years....They need to play more like a team and that issue has been around for a while. Fact of the matter has always been that when the powerplay was firing on all cyliners, or our guys were scoring at an abnormal rate shooting like 28%, or when Biron was standing on his head they were winning, when they were just playing ordinary we lost....hence the horrible ups and downs we have witnessed

2) CHEMISTRY - Whatever the reason is, this group of players is just not working at the moment. There has been a TON of turnover in players the past two seasons, some warranted, some not. Two seasons ago this team looked like they all loved playing for each other and was on the brink of being a great team and then Unmberger, Upshall, Downie, Lupul, Smith, Hatcher, Biron, Nitty, Knuble all are gone....I also find it very NOT conincidental that as soon as you get some dominant personalities in here like Pronger and Lappy, **** hits the fan....

I think the following needs to happen, in this order:

1) Give another week or two for Lavi to try to work in his system
2) If they are still terrible, change the captain (Pronger or Lappy)
3) If still terrible make a major deal
4) If 3 happens I think the organization needs to take a very close look at Homer

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