Why not? Kelly was an exceptional defensive player and a very clean player I might add.
And the rest of the guys like Gainey and Provost were also exceptional defensive players who, I think, have better resumes as forwards defensively. I'd likely say that for most of the guys mentioned in this thread so far.
Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord
Punch Imlach's book states that he got Red Kelly specifically because he needed a center who could neutralize big Jean Beliveau.
I'm not saying Red Kelly was bad as a forward defensively- evident he was quite good. That doesn't make him a top-10 forward defensively all-time, especially with the relatively limited number of years he spent as one.
I'm not saying Red Kelly was bad as a forward defensively- evident he was quite good. That doesn't make him a top-10 forward defensively all-time, especially with the relatively limited number of years he spent as one.
Yes, I suppose that's true. I'd have to go quite a ways down before I named Red Kelly on my list. But yeah, he was good.
And the rest of the guys like Gainey and Provost were also exceptional defensive players who, I think, have better resumes as forwards defensively. I'd likely say that for most of the guys mentioned in this thread so far.
Resumes are not everything. IMHO Red Kelly is superior defensively to Bob Gainey. But the thing is Kelly was awesome offensively too, so it is easy to overlook his defensive play. If he was asked to play purely defensive role I am fairly certain he would do a better job than Gainey or Provost. Just my 0.02$ though.
IMO Jari Kurri, Bobby Clarke, Fedorov and Trottier were the only players to be elite offensively and defensively. Guys like sakic, yzerman, modano and forsberg played good defense but they dont compare.
I never saw jack walker, klukay, pavelich, metz and provost play so i cant comment on them, but Craig Ramsay was amazing. IMO he was the second most important forward on the Sabres after Perrault.
Resumes are not everything. IMHO Red Kelly is superior defensively to Bob Gainey. But the thing is Kelly was awesome offensively too, so it is easy to overlook his defensive play. If he was asked to play purely defensive role I am fairly certain he would do a better job than Gainey or Provost. Just my 0.02$ though.
What are you basing this off of though?
A number of the guys on the top-10 list also have offensive ability. Some better than what Kelly did offensively as a forward.
IMO Jari Kurri, Bobby Clarke, Fedorov and Trottier were the only players to be elite offensively and defensively. Guys like sakic, yzerman, modano and forsberg played good defense but they dont compare.
I never saw jack walker, klukay, pavelich, metz and provost play so i cant comment on them, but Craig Ramsay was amazing. IMO he was the second most important forward on the Sabres after Perrault.
Well i was basing it more on post expansion elite players. By the way I'm surprised Goring hasn't been mentioned.
It seems like most elite defensive players are either center or left wing. Right wings dont have that many defensive forwards for some reason, except lehtinen and kurri.
Well i was basing it more on post expansion elite players. By the way I'm surprised Goring hasn't been mentioned.
It seems like most elite defensive players are either center or left wing. Right wings dont have that many defensive forwards for some reason, except lehtinen and kurri.
Goring just isn't top-10.
Don't forget Provost on RW- best defensive RW ever.
His ability to reduce the effectiveness of the Blackhawks defense and centers while Hull was on the ice was an integral part of of the Canadiens and Claude Provost's coverage of Bobby Hull.
Henri Richard was a RHS playing center as opposed to the more common LHS playing centers. With his speed and positioning he was able to reduce the passing lanes from the defense or centers to Bobby Hull.
The Canadiens also used this to advantage when checking Bobby orr during the Beliveau / H. Richard era. Beliveau was a LHS center.
The Canadiens would vary defensive looks and available passing lanes causing the Bruins to slow down their attack.
Trust I don't have to explain the on ice geometry and how a RHS center changes the passing lanes.
Although I am quite certain that he should not be regarded as best ever, I am interested to know, where Jere Lehtinen should be ranked?
In terms of awards, Lehtinen's three Selke Throphies, including consequtive wins in 98 and 99, put him in quite elite company (Gainey and Carbonneau being the two other players having won 3 or more official Selkes, retro-Selkes do change this a bit).
I have always understood that Lehtinen is among the Selke Winners that won the award with his defensive game (although career year in 2002/03 in terms of offence likely didn't hurt him in selke voting).
How he should be ranked in historical context? Top-15 but outside top-10?
His ability to reduce the effectiveness of the Blackhawks defense and centers while Hull was on the ice was an integral part of of the Canadiens and Claude Provost's coverage of Bobby Hull.
Henri Richard was a RHS playing center as opposed to the more common LHS playing centers. With his speed and positioning he was able to reduce the passing lanes from the defense or centers to Bobby Hull.
The Canadiens also used this to advantage when checking Bobby orr during the Beliveau / H. Richard era. Beliveau was a LHS center.
The Canadiens would vary defensive looks and available passing lanes causing the Bruins to slow down their attack.
Trust I don't have to explain the on ice geometry and how a RHS center changes the passing lanes.
One of the few times we are going to agree on something. Henri Richard was a phenomenal defensive player. Such a Dogged/tenacious player.
Although I am quite certain that he should not be regarded as best ever, I am interested to know, where Jere Lehtinen should be ranked?
In terms of awards, Lehtinen's three Selke Throphies, including consequtive wins in 98 and 99, put him in quite elite company (Gainey and Carbonneau being the two other players having won 3 or more official Selkes, retro-Selkes do change this a bit).
I have always understood that Lehtinen is among the Selke Winners that won the award with his defensive game (although career year in 2002/03 in terms of offence likely didn't hurt him in selke voting).
How he should be ranked in historical context? Top-15 but outside top-10?
I would say somewhere around there. Top-20 for sure.
Westfall had a better cereer for sure, but was he better defensively at the time? I always thought of Sanderson as the key to that Marcotte-Sanderson-Westfall line.
Westfall had a better cereer for sure, but was he better defensively at the time? I always thought of Sanderson as the key to that Marcotte-Sanderson-Westfall line.
I felt he was slightly better defensively. I always held Westfall high in that regard. He was the guy Sinden was always double shifting on the Penalty kill.
Bobby Orr, won 8 Norris trophies, what more do you need?
I'm assuming the sarcasm face means thats a joke, haha. Please tell me it is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by habsfans333
Its easy. The 3 best defensive players ever played for the Habs.
Bob Gainey
Guy Carbonneau
Henri Richard
/thread
Provost is there as well. I also think that isn't true (even though I'm a habs fan). IMO, Provost and Gainey are better than Richard, and a lot better than Carbonneau.
I'm assuming the sarcasm face means thats a joke, haha. Please tell me it is.
Provost is there as well. I also think that isn't true (even though I'm a habs fan). IMO, Provost and Gainey are better than Richard, and a lot better than Carbonneau.
Henri Richard made the defensive of the line he played with work. He was Claude Provost's center. I described why previously.
You are correct about Gainey. He made the Jarvis and Carbonneau lines defensive forces.
