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Old
12-17-2009, 02:19 AM
  #26
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Originally Posted by Edge View Post
I just don't know if any of these guys, save maybe Dawes, makes a difference.

This team has holes everywhere and can't seem to score.

A guy like Prucha isn't really the answer to that problem. I get the whole obsession with hustle on these boards (Prucha, York, Callahan, Ortmeyer) but we really have to be careful not to overrate the offensive potential of these guys just because they bust their ass.
If you keep them on the third line where they belong, there's no issue.

Obviously the real problem here is our entire roster is filled with these guys.

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Old
12-17-2009, 02:21 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by RangerFan10 View Post
cup contenders may have the caliber players these guys are, but they can't all be clones of one another. Prucha, Dawes, Callahan, Avery, etc. are all very similar in terms of size and skillset.

There was no way we were going to tender these guys when they were RFA's, which was this past offseason in case anyone forgot, I'm not sure why everyone brings them up everytime they score a freaking goal.
I agree, however, I do believe that guys like Avery and Callahan are cut out for third line roles. They fit that mold.

I think what tends to happen is that people assume because a player wasn't good enough for a top six spot, that they can just slide into a third line slot.

Guys like Avery and Callahan are good third line players. They are built to play that kind of role. That's ideally what you want on the third line, not necessarily guys who just weren't good enough to play on the top two lines.

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12-17-2009, 02:26 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Crease View Post
If you keep them on the third line where they belong, there's no issue.

Obviously the real problem here is our entire roster is filled with these guys.
That's assuming you believe they are good third line players.

I do not believe Prucha/Dawes are long-term answers to a teams third line. To me, they seem like stopgaps.

Prucha had one good season and it's been downhill since. And even then, he was essentially a powerplay specialist.

I think it speaks volumes to the state of this team that we're yearning for a one-way, offensive player whose production essentially amounts to 15 goals if everything falls into place.

I don't know if people miss Prucha more than they should, or if our level of expectations has just fallen too much.

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12-17-2009, 02:35 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge View Post
I agree, however, I do believe that guys like Avery and Callahan are cut out for third line roles. They fit that mold.

I think what tends to happen is that people assume because a player wasn't good enough for a top six spot, that they can just slide into a third line slot.

Guys like Avery and Callahan are good third line players. They are built to play that kind of role. That's ideally what you want on the third line, not necessarily guys who just weren't good enough to play on the top two lines.
I think Prucha is built for that role too. Dawes, I'm not sure if he's just a fringe top 6 guy or what. I personally don't want him on a checking type line, he just isn't physical enough. Ortmeyer is another player that's perfect for a third line. Dominic Moore as well.

But you can only field 3. And personally, I'd prefer a mix of players on that third line. I think right now Avery-Anisimov-Callahan could be a good third line. It's a shame at least one of these guys is pretty much forced to be in the top 6.

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Old
12-17-2009, 10:33 AM
  #30
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All of problems seem to stem from the fact that we don't have enough of our "scoring" guys scoring.

I don't really know if the third or fourth line is the main problem here. It seems to be that when only one, maybe two, of your top 6 forwards score, it creates a trickle-down problem.

For what it's worth, I don't think there's anyone on the third line I'd give up for Prucha.

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Old
12-17-2009, 10:51 AM
  #31
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When Torts came in I thought this paved the way for Prucha to get a regular shift and play in a system that might highlight his forecheck and offensive instincts.

I really wished Torts gave him a longer look.

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Old
12-17-2009, 10:55 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by lbrowne View Post
When Torts came in I thought this paved the way for Prucha to get a regular shift and play in a system that might highlight his forecheck and offensive instincts.

I really wished Torts gave him a longer look.
Wasn't he basically traded as soon as Tortorella was hired. I don't think Tortorella had much of a say in giving Prucha a longer look.

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Old
12-17-2009, 11:55 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge View Post

Prucha had one good season and it's been downhill since. And even then, he was essentially a powerplay specialist.

I think it speaks volumes to the state of this team that we're yearning for a one-way, offensive player whose production essentially amounts to 15 goals if everything falls into place.
Would that one good season be 05/06 or 06/07? He put up 20+ goals (that's more than 15, right?) in both of them before he had his minutes (and confidence) slashed.

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I don't know if people miss Prucha more than they should, or if our level of expectations has just fallen too much.
I coach three different sports. Heart is discounted way too much on these boards. Teams need guys like Prucha--not a whole roster of them--but a couple at least. When you cut all the heart and guts out of a team, you're left with what we have now. The Rangers' roster today has a lot more talent on it than it did with Prucha's teams. Having marginally more talent at the expense of a hell of a lot of heart isn't helping much.

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Old
12-17-2009, 11:57 AM
  #34
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He's gone. Who gives a ****.

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Old
12-17-2009, 12:30 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Crease View Post
I don't understand.

Prucha > Voros
Jed Ortmeyer > Boyle
Orr > Brashear
Dawes > Christensen

I'd take all four of those guys over the four we currently have.


Don't try to understand.....this guy has been using "good riddance" for a few days now referring to past Rangers who actually helped the team during their time here. I think he's one of the posters here who are still waiting for this great future with Drury.

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Old
12-17-2009, 01:04 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Rangerfans View Post
Prucha and Dawes did nothing here. Wow, I can't believe the love that Petr Prucha gets, it's truly disturbing.
See Post #2 in this here thread.

Petr gave everything he had every shift.

This team has about 2 guys who do that, maybe.

05-06 team went as far as they did because of Jagr, Henrik, and our character players who busted ass night in night out.

We've seen **** since.

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Old
12-17-2009, 01:11 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
Has scored more goals than:

Brandon Dubinsky
Chris Drury
Sean Avery
Chris Higgins
Enver Lisin


He also has the same amount of goals as Kotalik and Prospal.

I have no idea why im posting this, its neither here nor there...but its interesting either way.

Always loved Petr, was sad we let him go.
You mean the Brandon Dubinsky that missed over a month with a broken hand? That Brandon Dubinsky?

Great insight, as usual.

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Old
12-17-2009, 01:13 PM
  #38
Thirty One
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
Has scored more goals than:

Brandon Dubinsky
Chris Drury
Sean Avery
Chris Higgins
Enver Lisin
if there weren't 203 players in the league with 6 or more goals, I would say this is noteworthy.

however, there are.

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Old
12-17-2009, 01:36 PM
  #39
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Would that one good season be 05/06 or 06/07? He put up 20+ goals (that's more than 15, right?) in both of them before he had his minutes (and confidence) slashed.
That would be 05-06. In 06-07 he was even streakier and even less effective and it went from there.

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I coach three different sports. Heart is discounted way too much on these boards. Teams need guys like Prucha--not a whole roster of them--but a couple at least. When you cut all the heart and guts out of a team, you're left with what we have now. The Rangers' roster today has a lot more talent on it than it did with Prucha's teams. Having marginally more talent at the expense of a hell of a lot of heart isn't helping much.
Heart is a wonderful thing, but at some point it's about effective players.

This team has passionate players - Dubinsky, Callahan, Voros (despite his very limited talent), etc.

The problem is that we seem to fall in love with guys with heart and at some point these guys just don't fit a role.

To me the whole confidence thing is an excuse for a player that even when he was "good" was essentially a powerplay specialist. Prucha has consistently struggled to score at even strength.

There is a reason that the Rangers had to package him in a deal.

He works his tail off, no denying that, but I don't see him as an answer.

Whenever he scores (like the start of the season) this board goes crazy. But then we don't hear anything for the two months in which he doesn't score. The cycle repeats.

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Old
12-17-2009, 02:41 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge View Post
That would be 05-06. In 06-07 he was even streakier and even less effective and it went from there.
Streaky or not, a 22 goal season would be a good season. Stating that Prucha only had one good season is misleading at best.

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Heart is a wonderful thing, but at some point it's about effective players.

This team has passionate players - Dubinsky, Callahan, Voros (despite his very limited talent), etc.
Dubi and Cally are more typical workhorse type players. They have heart, but not the kind that a player like Prucha brings. Voros? You've got to be kidding.

Quote:
The problem is that we seem to fall in love with guys with heart and at some point these guys just don't fit a role.
At some point management (and it's been the same management) gets this idea that heart players aren't skilled enough to help the team, and that management decides that they need to replace those players with more talented players. How's that been working out? Drury has more talent than Prucha. Redden, Rozsival, and co have more talent than Prucha. Talent alone doesn't win games. You need a mix of talented players with heart. Very rare players have both of these traits. Sather has been trying to build a team on talent alone for years. It's stupid.

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To me the whole confidence thing is an excuse for a player that even when he was "good" was essentially a powerplay specialist. Prucha has consistently struggled to score at even strength.
I have no idea what went on behind the scenes, but there was something fishy. Even if you want to claim that Prucha was only a "powerplay specialist," he was getting benched when the powerplay was the worst in the league. You say that there was a reason that the Rangers had to package him in a deal? I agree-that reason is that, intentionally or not, Renney did everything possible to portray Prucha in a negative light. I have never seen, in any sport, a player so shat upon by a coach. Ever.

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He works his tail off, no denying that, but I don't see him as an answer.

Whenever he scores (like the start of the season) this board goes crazy. But then we don't hear anything for the two months in which he doesn't score. The cycle repeats.
I don't disagree with anything you wrote here. Prucha is a streaky scorer. He isn't an "answer." What he is, is the kind of player who is PART of a good team. We keep on looking for a player to be THE thing that changes this team. That's not how it works. You have to assemble a team that works together. Add Kovalchuck to this roster? Won't change much. It won't turn this team into a Stanley Cup contender.

The reason players like Prucha are needed is because, even when they aren't scoring, they elevate the play of their teammates. Call it the "Rudy" factor if you want, but it's true. It removes excuses from the rest of the players on the team. It's a lot tougher for a player who is 6'4 with all the talent in the world to take a shift off when he gets on the ice after a player like Prucha. It's embarrassing to get outplayed by a guy with half the size and a third of the talent. Don't believe me? Find ONE negative comment about Prucha spoken by one of his teammates. ONE. It's just the opposite- Watch the reactions of his teammates when he scores. Players like that energize the rest of the team, and considering we all constantly ***** about how this team never plays with energy or desire or urgency---It sounds like they could use a Prucha or two in the lineup.

Again- I don't for one second believe that Prucha is more than he is. That said, what he is, is the type of player this team is missing.

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Old
12-17-2009, 02:47 PM
  #41
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He would have done wonders with the 2:17 of ice he'd get from Torts

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Old
12-17-2009, 03:51 PM
  #42
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Streaky or not, a 22 goal season would be a good season. Stating that Prucha only had one good season is misleading at best.
Not necessarily. I mean that's the same kind of mentality that has us stuck with kotalik.

Quote:
Dubi and Cally are more typical workhorse type players. They have heart, but not the kind that a player like Prucha brings. Voros? You've got to be kidding.
Callahan leaves everything out there on the ice. The difference is that he can do that AND be an effective player.

Voros doesn't have much in the way of talent, but anyone who goes there KNOWING they are going to lose a bunch of fights, but still gives it a shot, that's heart.


Quote:
At some point management (and it's been the same management) gets this idea that heart players aren't skilled enough to help the team, and that management decides that they need to replace those players with more talented players. How's that been working out? Drury has more talent than Prucha. Redden, Rozsival, and co have more talent than Prucha. Talent alone doesn't win games. You need a mix of talented players with heart. Very rare players have both of these traits. Sather has been trying to build a team on talent alone for years. It's stupid.
No one is arguing that talent along doesn't win games, but Prucha, even now, has SIX GOALS.

I have no idea what went on behind the scenes, but there was something fishy.
Quote:
Even if you want to claim that Prucha was only a "powerplay specialist," he was getting benched when the powerplay was the worst in the league. You say that there was a reason that the Rangers had to package him in a deal? I agree-that reason is that, intentionally or not, Renney did everything possible to portray Prucha in a negative light. I have never seen, in any sport, a player so shat upon by a coach. Ever.
Sorry, but I just think that is a little too conspiracy theoriest for my taste.

Prucha, outside of the powerplay, just isn't a very good player. He's a passable player. no more, no less.

Quote:
The reason players like Prucha are needed is because, even when they aren't scoring, they elevate the play of their teammates. Call it the "Rudy" factor if you want, but it's true. It removes excuses from the rest of the players on the team. It's a lot tougher for a player who is 6'4 with all the talent in the world to take a shift off when he gets on the ice after a player like Prucha. It's embarrassing to get outplayed by a guy with half the size and a third of the talent. Don't believe me? Find ONE negative comment about Prucha spoken by one of his teammates. ONE. It's just the opposite- Watch the reactions of his teammates when he scores. Players like that energize the rest of the team, and considering we all constantly ***** about how this team never plays with energy or desire or urgency---It sounds like they could use a Prucha or two in the lineup.
I think you overestimate his impact. He was here and our team still had it's share of problems.

Forgive me if I sound apathetic. But I feel like I spent 3 or 4 years having almost this exact some coversation with Mike York, long after his best (and first) season was a memory and he continued to slide his way right out of the stream of conciousness.

I don't think this board has ever problem with appreciating hard working guys. But it's almost like the kiss of death if they are energy guys and have a standout rookie season. It doesn't matter if they never come close to that level again, we fall in love with them and keep waiting, and waiting, and waiting, and waiting for them to do it again.

There are values are never as high, anywhere, as we make them on here.

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Old
12-17-2009, 11:29 PM
  #43
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Dawes just scored his 10th of the year. Pretty one too.

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Old
12-17-2009, 11:58 PM
  #44
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I just don't understand this bizarre fascination that some ranger fans have with Prucha.

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Old
12-18-2009, 12:04 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by LeetchisGod View Post
I just don't understand this bizarre fascination that some ranger fans have with Prucha.
He was easy to root for. Can't say the same about half our current lineup.

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Old
12-18-2009, 12:08 AM
  #46
In The Flesh
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Originally Posted by LeetchisGod View Post
I just don't understand this bizarre fascination that some ranger fans have with Prucha.
bizarre? ummm, he had the entire MSG crowd behind him...

we had a home grown talent score 30 goals

who also played every shift like it was his last

not exactly a frequent occurance in Rangerland, especially during the "dark" years.

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Old
12-18-2009, 09:43 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by theMessiah1194 View Post
bizarre? ummm, he had the entire MSG crowd behind him...

we had a home grown talent score 30 goals

who also played every shift like it was his last

not exactly a frequent occurance in Rangerland, especially during the "dark" years.
I said it then and I say it now - Tony Granato.

One good season Prucha had. Actually he'd be lucky to come close to what Granato did after he left the Rangers.

In the end, Prucha's play was either here nor there after his first season, for all that energy it added up to nothing but getting hit hard game after game.


Last edited by Bluenote13: 12-18-2009 at 09:52 AM.
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Old
12-18-2009, 10:08 AM
  #48
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I dont want him back. Average player.

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Old
12-18-2009, 02:22 PM
  #49
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Prucha's still playing below where it makes sense for him to be a top 6 forward. He's still not averaging many minutes, but maybe there's a reason why that's happened in two places now. I liked him a lot, but acknowledge that the situation has to be right for him in order for him to succeed. I don't think that situation was in New York under Renney (nothing against Renney, but I think he was looking for Petr to play a certain way, or be a certain type of player that fits his system, and that wasn't Petr's comfort zone; further, with more bodies, i.e., Shanny, etc., taking up valuable PP time, it made things more difficult for Petr).

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Old
12-18-2009, 05:30 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Siffalovic View Post
I dont want him back. Average player.
Average is more than I can say for half our forwards...

I take prucha over

voros
boyle
brashear
lisin
kotalik
higgins

3 bums
a speedster with no finish
and 2 guys with apparently no heart..shame cus i liked higgins

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